Fake VS Real Element & Draco IV

[iz2sick]

Takin' it to PM's....

Noooo! I want to know too

I'm guessing employee or ex-employee.

 

[asleep]

I don't buy or support products borne out of intellectual property theft or counterfeiting. Period.

 

[iz2sick]

I don't buy or support products borne out of intellectual property theft or counterfeiting. Period.

I bet you do, but you just don't realize it.

 

[mbh87]

Try me: Buy American, from the good people that worked hard to design these products, develop processes for manufacturing a product with many different components and dependencies, and with parts produced by American vendors from American materials using American labor.

I'm all ears...

Can you get us genuine Element cases for ~$25? If so I will gladly "buy American", otherwise I'm not interested in your overpriced product

 

[Phone Junky]

Can you get us genuine Element cases for ~$25? If so I will gladly "buy American", otherwise I'm not interested in your overpriced product

$25? Shoot I'd pay $50 or maybe even $75, but $150? No effing way.

 

[iz2sick]

$25? Shoot I'd pay $50 or maybe even $75, but $150? No effing way.

Exactly. And that has been my argument this whole time. We aren't talking about a matter of even a $50 difference. We are talking in upwards of a $120 difference.

Aside from the few exceptions, the vast majority of known knock-off purchasers openly admit that they would never buy the real thing because they simply can't stomach the price or can't afford it. Look at Elements processing period. They've said on their social media that they are backed up on orders. These knock-offs aren't really taking business away. Whatever business they are taking away is arguably very negligible.

Now if the Element cases cost even $80, the "it's stealing business" argument would hold a much stronger ground.

Those that argue intellectual property stealing, you have more validity in your arguments. I do have to argue that you should use that same logic and reasoning and apply to all other aspects of the business world. Intellectual theft is rampant whether or not it is obvious. I'd concentrate on the ones that actually do obvious harm.

 

[DougNg]

I'm going to start by saying that I do not have any affiliation with Element, I'm just a fan of their product as I am with many other brands amongst varying commodities (Apple, Ironheart Denim, Orens Daily Roast). I tend to stay brand loyal and throw their names out whenever I can because I am wholly satisfied with the product.

I'm not particularly wealthy, I work for a government agency working a GS12 step 1 salary. That being said, I have no problem paying for what I support.

I also support international business. Most of my electronic devices are made overseas, and most of my clothes are made in Japan.

And while I won't preach to others what to do (because I really hate when people do that to me), I am offering my point of view for those interested to digest: I don't buy counterfeits. To start with, I think it's tacky. I wouldn't buy a fake Rolex, I wouldn't buy a fake LV bag, and I'm not going to buy a fake Element case. For me, it's along the same lines.

I believe in intellectual property. I have a number of friends who make custom knives and I've seen how the overseas counterfeit business hurts hardworking people who have worked to fine tune a product. It's insulting and I refuse (personally) to take part in that

Do I own polo shirts that are not made by the originator of the product? Yes. Are any of those products labeled with labels that claim that they are made by Polo Ralph Lauren? No

Do I have a TV that largely looks like it was made and specced by Samsung? Yes. Is it a Samsung? No. Is the manufacturer trying to be deceptive in trying to convince me that it's a Samsung? No, it's labeled in large letters that say "insignia"

At the top of my bucket list is to own an Omega Seamaster. I have seen many convincing counterfeits, but it defeats the purpose of owning it if I knowingly purchase a counterfeit.

I would probably purchase a case from one of the Jackies or whoever is hawking these cases if 1) it didn't have the Element logo on it and the deceptive "Certificate of Authenticity" and 2) if it wasn't trying so hard to pass itself off as an Element case with it's design. Obviously the manufacturers overseas have a high level of manufacturing precision, so I would be willing to check out a case if it weren't so fraudulent (that Certificate of Authenticity really annoys me, I loathe being lied to)

Would I rather spend money on one of these fugazzis or would I rather have a $20 rubber case? I would rather have the rubber case. At least I'm not trying to look like someone I'm not

Just my POV if anyone is interested

 

[iz2sick]

Your POV was very judgmental and really a bit condescending. There's no need for that so let's keep it civil. Calling it "tacky" is calling the buyers tacky and following that comment with "in my opinion" doesn't free you of that tone.

With that said, comparing a $20 knock-off of an aluminum iPhone case that costs $150 to a Rolex or LV knock-off is illogical.

Rolex hand-makes their higher-end watches. Rolex uses real solid gold for their gold watches. They use actual exotic metals where applicable rather than plating cheaper ones. Rolex has decades and decades of proven design and brand-image backing them.

LV is different. In my opinion, LV is all about brand name and brand name only. They are a clothing company. Still, LV or Rolex, we are talking about a matter of thousands of dollars in value for the product. I will say that in their case, they have even less of a problem with having business stolen. Unless we are talking about knock-offs that use real gold and other exotic materials as well. It's hard not to charge a high price for solid exotic metals though.

The Element knock-offs are still aluminum with annodized paint like the real thing. Lesser grade aluminum? Perhaps, but still aluminum.

I have no problem supporting and fighting for a company that is fair. I will not defend a company that I personally feel is being unfair to their customers. $150 is unfair for an aluminum (even high-grade) iPhone case is not fair in my eyes. It's not fair to leave many Facebook complaints unanswered. Sure, some have had great experiences. But a lot are having bad experiences. For a case that costs almost as much as a 16g iPhone 4S, they should be a little more conscious of their customer complaints. Yes, you can't answer them all, but at least show an attempt.

I won't argue your point about these knock-offs going to great lengths trying to pass it off as the real thing even down to the COA. I frown on anyone who flips these cases as being genuine.

I'm not buying these knock-offs to seem like I own the real thing. I can care less what people think. Sorry, I work hard for my money and pay taxes in this country. I rather buy aluminum for $21 than a cheap rubber case just because it's genuine or made in America.

By the way, these Chinese manufacturers are in fact releasing some original aluminum cases. They do take obvious styling cues from Element, but at least they aren't full copies. Check them out. They are even cheaper than the Element knock-offs. Unless of course you like spending your hard earned $30 on silicone or rubber cases.

Edit: if you argue the "intellectual theft" side, you must apply that to all copies regardless of the fact that they don't put the brand logo they are stealing the design from on the product. Intellectual theft is intellectual theft. You're picking and choosing which types of intellectual thefts are acceptable otherwise.

 

[Anvil Image]

$25? Shoot I'd pay $50 or maybe even $75, but $150? No effing way.

$150!? You're talking about the highest priced model, not the even the base offering. Vapor COMP case runs $99 and a 10% off coupon is easy to get.

Exactly. And that has been my argument this whole time. We aren't talking about a matter of even a $50 difference. We are talking in upwards of a $120 difference.

You're trying to spin the largest difference, again, as the rule rather than the exception...

Aside from the few exceptions, the vast majority of known knock-off purchasers openly admit that they would never buy the real thing because they simply can't stomach the price or can't afford it.

Then buy another brand! If that is your preference, then I support buying another brand, but don't support the thieves that are creating the knock-offs. That's not cool...

Look at Elements processing period. They've said on their social media that they are backed up on orders. These knock-offs aren't really taking business away. Whatever business they are taking away is arguably very negligible.

Not only are the sales of counterfeit products taking business away, but it increases the work load on the legitimate company through customer service, fraud prevention, litigation, etc, which all contributes to the overhead and can affect the prices.

Now if the Element cases cost even $80, the "it's stealing business" argument would hold a much stronger ground.

Check the price of the COMP and get a coupon or wait for a sale.

Those that argue intellectual property stealing, you have more validity in your arguments. I do have to argue that you should use that same logic and reasoning and apply to all other aspects of the business world. Intellectual theft is rampant whether or not it is obvious. I'd concentrate on the ones that actually do obvious harm.

You saw the Vapor. You've seen the Vapor Pro. They are both original designs that no one was doing when these came out. The counterfeits that are being sold are clearly direct copies and required no innovation or design from the counterfeiters. Hell, even Atomic Case just copied the Vapor and I don't support buying from them either.

 

[iz2sick]

You have very fair points Anvil. I can't logically argue against the core of your stance.

The matter now is our differences in economic philosophy. You have an iron fist ethical stance about counterfeited products regardless of whom they copy.

My view is that the company has to be worthy of my defense. As much as I want to buy an e13ctron knock-off, I refuse to. They charge a fair price and are very active in communications with their customers as evidenced by their social media. The knock-offs are a great deal cheaper, but I won't buy them.

Call me jaded, but I'm tired of companies that take advantage of their customers. You are likely affiliated with Element since you made a previous statement about your livelihood being at risk. I invite you to tell me how and why $150 is justified for any aluminum case when a genuine carbon fiber case costs a fraction of that. I will keep pointing to the Pro model since that is the most popular model as of now.

I will stress to you that I am very familiar with high-grade aluminum products from my snowboard industry experience. I very highly doubt that the most expensive Element aluminum case is more durable and higher quality than a snowboard binding with an aluminum chassis.

If you have justification for Element's practices, you should openly discuss it. Fill in the potential customers on why Element deserves their business rather than the $23 knock-off artists. Economic ethics alone won't be enough. Justify the cost of the aluminum case Element produces. Discuss why that aluminum is better quality than competitors like e13ctron.

By the way, I treat all companies this way. I see a Rolex knock-off and scoff at it because I know what goes into a real one. I see a LV purse knock-off and don't get phased one bit. Thousands of dollars for a purse without one ounce of exotic materials in it... sorry, not going to defend LV.

And yes, I strive to have my own business one day. Specifically snowboard related. Rest assured, I will do everything in my power to be fair. If I get copied, I'm not going to knock my customers for it. Rather, I'm going to show them why my designs or shop is much more worth their business.

 

[DougNg]

Let's pretend that the cost of aluminum is the same across the board

Comparing snowboard equipment to a cell phone case is comparing apples to oranges

A solid billet of aluminum is more durable than either one. The manufacturing costs is the difference. I've looked at your snowboard equipment. First, all the bevels have been either masked by a tumble finish and then a satin buff. Then they are anodized. From what I can tell, the CNC did considerably less steps with larger tools (larger tools break down less often, thus decreasing the manufacturing costs)

Eyeballing my Element case, there are at least five bevels on each side, not including fullers, a dovetail for the plastic insert, plus the five bevels on the inside.

Also, the case is a two piece case, so all the bevels have to line up perfectly.

Also, just by looking at the case, the bit never broke while making any of the bevels. That's pretty good. I've seen a fair share of CNC errors because of broken bits. I have three Element cases and none of them have evidence of a broken bit

This is just from a novices eye, I don't know anything else about the manufacturing, only that for me, with a rudimentary understanding of CNC and AutoCAD, this case is worth my $150

 

[iz2sick]

Let's pretend that the cost of aluminum is the same across the board

Comparing snowboard equipment to a cell phone case is comparing apples to oranges

A solid billet of aluminum is more durable than either one. The manufacturing costs is the difference. I've looked at your snowboard equipment. First, all the bevels have been either masked by a tumble finish and then a satin buff. Then they are anodized. From what I can tell, the CNC did considerably less steps with larger tools (larger tools break down less often, thus decreasing the manufacturing costs)

Eyeballing my Element case, there are at least five bevels on each side, not including fullers, a dovetail for the plastic insert, plus the five bevels on the inside.

Also, the case is a two piece case, so all the bevels have to line up perfectly.

Also, just by looking at the case, the bit never broke while making any of the bevels. That's pretty good. I've seen a fair share of CNC errors because of broken bits. I have three Element cases and none of them have evidence of a broken bit

This is just from a novices eye, I don't know anything else about the manufacturing, only that for me, with a rudimentary understanding of CNC and AutoCAD, this case is worth my $150

No, you misunderstood my point.

No need to say aluminum costs the same in this situation as that's exactly my point about snowboard bindings. I can get a great pair of aluminum bindings for around the price of a Vapor Pro.

http://ridesnowboards.com/bindings/ex

Check the video of their aluminum chassis. 50% recycled aluminum. They have a limited lifetime warranty on them.

So again, I ask you why Element's $150 for an aluminum iPhone case is justified?

You talk about the manufacturing process being cheaper for snowboard bindings... maybe, maybe not. What you didn't realize is that these snowboard bindings go through a ton of R&D, testing, and quality control. They even employ artists to design the graphics if they have them. They also fly focus groups out to their facility to test these products while in the prototype stage.

Then they bring them all over the world for demos once they pass the focus group stage. The further tweak them after months of worldwide demo days and finally release them into production. On top of all this, they offer the limited lifetime warranty against breakage or warping.

You might have a better handle on the manufacturing processes, but I have solid understanding of the process that snowboarding equipment go through outside of manufacturing.

Sorry, I still see no proof that the Element aluminum is more durable or more justified in price.

Another point you missed... these snowboard bindings have more aluminum in them on top of all the other materials that go into them like composite plastics, urethane toe straps, leather ankle straps, etc... To top things off with a cherry, BINDINGS COME IN PAIRS! So double up on everything I said.

 

[DougNg]

I just looked up the cost of a 12"x12"x1" plate of 6061 (aircraft grade aluminum)...it's $100...that's not expensive, but not really cheap either

 

[iz2sick]

I just looked up the cost of a 12"x12"x1" plate of 6061 (aircraft grade aluminum)...it's $100...that's not expensive, but not really cheap either

You mean consumer price right? You are ignoring the fact that manufacturers get wholesale prices. Furthermore, each manufacturer gets unique pricing depending on the relationship with and worth to the metal manufacturer.

Look, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I already conceded to Anvil's ethical stance. So please give me the benefit of the doubt that I have very reasonable arguments.

I have backed up my claims more than enough. I'm not talking out of my ears (I so want to use another word here lol)

 

[DougNg]

I'm not really arguing, just putting up facts. I was pretty surprised by that cost

I'm more familiar with steel costs, aluminum seems surprisingly high for me

 

[Anvil Image]

Let's pretend that the cost of aluminum is the same across the board

Comparing snowboard equipment to a cell phone case is comparing apples to oranges

SNIP....

This is just from a novices eye, I don't know anything else about the manufacturing, only that for me, with a rudimentary understanding of CNC and AutoCAD, this case is worth my $150

DougNg, that's a pretty good analysis from, as you put it, a novices eye. The more bevels that you have and the quality of the machining dictate how good good the final finish will be on any of these products. Element Case aluminum cases are not tumbled and have precise corners/facets but without the sharp edges that you'll see many times on the knock-offs. Corners are chamfered with an extra machine pass.

This is why you see many of the knock-off cases painted instead of anodized because they are covering up shoddy machine work or they are sometimes even cast (not machined) from inferior metals. Element Case anodizing is also done with vendors that have a higher level of control over the consistency and no contamination that you see many time in lower quality overseas anodizers. Anodizing will bring out the slightest imperfection in a machined product and not cover it up as paint will. The knockoffs out there that are anodized will have visible tool marks that will look "ok" until you get it next to a genuine Element Case and compare it. Then it will look like crap.

All of the cases are produced on a 5-axis CNC with multiple bit changes and operations. Every time you change a bit or make another pass, more machine time is required. The more machine time that's required, the more money the part costs. You can cut corners and make a cheaper product, but fit and finish suffer along with the consistency that Element Case achieves.

Higher quality machine work combined with better quality materials (US produced, high grade aluminum) guarantees a consistently better finish free from blemishes and defects.

@iz2sick: With your snowboard industry experience, are you talking about high-grade aluminum products that are produced through CNC machining, cast (not exactly high-grade) or stamped? Anodized finishes, painted, or powdercoated? Are you a manufacturer? How many vendors go into the production of one product?

I apologize if this response lacks continuity - it was typed over the course of about an hour on and off. I don't really have the time here to proof read and recompose right now....

 

[iz2sick]

I'm not really arguing, just putting up facts. I was pretty surprised by that cost

I'm more familiar with steel costs, aluminum seems surprisingly high for me

1) Yes you are arguing. Or a better descriptive word would be "debating".

2) You did post one fact about one aspect of one type of aluminum from one manufacturer.

3) Your dissection of an unnamed snowboard binding was a visual one. None of what you said about the snowboard binding was fact.

 

[Anvil Image]

No need to say aluminum costs the same in this situation as that's exactly my point about snowboard bindings. I can get a great pair of aluminum bindings for around the price of a Vapor Pro.

http://ridesnowboards.com/bindings/ex

Check the video of their aluminum chassis. 50% recycled aluminum. They have a limited lifetime warranty on them.

So again, I ask you why Element's $150 for an aluminum iPhone case is justified?

This is a great example in the differences in manufacturing!

The base for the snowboard binding shown is created from a stamped and bent sheet of aluminum and not from CNC machining. Also, they have a powdercoated finish that does not show the texture or material underneath and it's easier to get a nice result. It's way easier to produce in larger and quantities for less money.

The buckles may be forged but could also be cast aluminum and are combined with injection molded plastic straps. Once they get done with the R&D and create the tooling needed, it's pretty easy to pop out parts.

All in all, it's a nice binding, but it doesn't have (or require) the level of detailed machine work that an Element Case does.

 

[iz2sick]

@iz2sick: With your snowboard industry experience, are you talking about high-grade aluminum products that are produced through CNC machining, cast (not exactly high-grade) or stamped? Anodized finishes, painted, or powdercoated? Are you a manufacturer? How many vendors go into the production of one product?

I apologize if this response lacks continuity - it was typed over the course of about an hour on and off. I don't really have the time here to proof read and recompose right now....

Here's a brief run-down on Ride bindings. Another brand, Flow, does use CNC milled aluminum.

http://business.transworld.net/53833/uncategorized/ride-snowboards-201112-binding-preview/

That's ignoring everything else I said about what goes into the whole product life before it hits shelves. Also ignoring the limited lifetime warranty against breakage or warping.

Element cases do not offer such a warranty. Yet, Element, which you guys are trying to argue is just as high quality it seems, only offers a 90 day warranty. Even within that warranty, it is not against breakage. If you break a Ride binding aluminum chassis from jumping onto a rock, they will replace it.

Seriously, let's not even try to debate which is more durable... an iPhone aluminum case or a snowboard binding with aluminum chasis.

Furthermore, they are annodized. They also have painting over it if it has graphics.

Rome bindings which also use aluminum, just paint over theirs which has been a huge complaint ever since they started using this method of coloring.

$160ish for Ride's low-end binding that still uses the same high quality aircraft grade aluminum.

I can't stress enough the other factors that go into snowboard bindings other than the aluminum process...

Other materials, far more R&D, vigorous testing, worldwide demo days (where snowboarders can demo them before production), further R&D to tweak any faults after demos... Tons of quality control. They have to put these through torture tests because having a snowboard binding break off mid-run can cost you your life.

I'm sorry Anvil... we will just have to remain in disagreeance with our philosophies. None of this is personal. I'd be more than happy to have a beer with ya.

We don't have to be enemies because we don't share the same views on this subject.

----------

This is a great example in the differences in manufacturing!

The base for the snowboard binding shown is created from a stamped and bent sheet of aluminum and not from CNC machining. Also, they have a powdercoated finish that does not show the texture or material underneath and it's easier to get a nice result. It's way easier to produce in larger and quantities for less money.

The buckles may be forged but could also be cast aluminum and are combined with injection molded plastic straps. Once they get done with the R&D and create the tooling needed, it's pretty easy to pop out parts.

All in all, it's a nice binding, but it doesn't have (or require) the level of detailed machine work that an Element Case does.

Mind you, this is their entry level binding. We can look at top-tiers if you like which in all honesty still isn't a huge price difference considering you get these in pairs.

These bindings are annodized.

 

[DougNg]

I was referring to the post about the aluminum, and I was looking at the binding you referenced

I've lost interest in arguing that the manufacturing cost of Element's cases are justified or not. I know enough about manufacturing overseas and domestic to be ok with the cost (btw, Anvil, you forgot to mention that the cost to anodize domestically is considerably higher because the chemicals used to anodize have to be disposed of properly, by a third party)

I've also lost interest in arguing whether or not it's ok to make/sell/buy counterfeits, regardless if the product cost is perceived as too high. Nobody is twisting my arm to have this case

I just remembered why I never engage in internet forums anymore.

I'm off to buy a Vapor Pro R8

 

[Phone Junky]

$150!? You're talking about the highest priced model, not the even the base offering. Vapor COMP case runs $99 and a 10% off coupon is easy to get.

That's because I want an aluminum case. The COMP is plastic all the way down one side. The only reason I tried the Pro is because I was afraid of signal loss. I seriously considered an E13ctron case but some of the reviews said it killed their signal. There seemed to be a lot of positive reviews on the Vapor Pro and the signal strength thus my decision. Since $150 was out of the question, the knockoff was the only answer. I don't expect you to like it or even accept it. It's my choice for myself.
And to ruffle your feathers a bit more, I ordered 3 Vapor 4 knockoffs for $20. May or may not hurt the signal but I like the all aluminum look better and for $20, I'll take the chance.

 

[jbanger]

seriously, imho, if you can't afford the real thing, then don't bother with imitations. simple as that.

 

[iz2sick]

I was referring to the post about the aluminum, and I was looking at the binding you referenced

I've lost interest in arguing that the manufacturing cost of Element's cases are justified or not. I know enough about manufacturing overseas and domestic to be ok with the cost (btw, Anvil, you forgot to mention that the cost to anodize domestically is considerably higher because the chemicals used to anodize have to be disposed of properly, by a third party)

I've also lost interest in arguing whether or not it's ok to make/sell/buy counterfeits, regardless if the product cost is perceived as too high. Nobody is twisting my arm to have this case

I just remembered why I never engage in internet forums anymore.

I'm off to buy a Vapor Pro R8

Well, you just made sweeping assumptions in favor of the company you defend.

You brush off the snowboard binding after giving it a visual without doing any further research on the subject. I openly admit that I am ignorant to metal manufacturing, but I do know other brands CNC machine their aluminum heelcups and others CNC mill their baseplates.

Excuse my obvious ignorance on the subject, but what does any of this really matter? Are you suggesting that a CNC machined Element aluminum case is more durable than a snowboard binding? Are you familiar with the sport at all? You also totally ignored all my points which are valid. These bindings come in pairs meaning there is significantly more aircraft grade aluminum than Element cases, are 50% recycled aluminum, have other materials in them like composite plastics. And this is their entry-level offering. We can go up the food chain to something mid-tier and there will be even more significant differences compared to Element's top-tier cases. And the price difference won't even be that great.

You also totally ignored my comments about the work that goes into snowboard bindings outside of manufacturing. R&D, prototyping, flying focus groups to their facility (this is not cheap) to ride the prototypes, months of demo days for future customers, pre-production tweaking after demos, then the final production.

I'm not trying to convince any Element supporters to take my side. I'm happy you guys are happy with the product. You can afford them, more power to you. The point of this debate and any other Internet debate I get involved in, is not to convince the supporters. The point is to debate so that all sides of the story are presented for the literally thousands of eyes that will see this.

I'm keeping it civil here. I'm not being condescending. I'm not being judgmental other than towards a brand. I'm not calling you tacky for buying genuine Element cases. I'm not saying you are an immoral person for your purchase.

I did not start this. I got chewed out and had accusations put against me for doing a review of one of the knock-offs. I have the right to defend my point.

Yours and Anvil's explanations of the processes involved in Element case manufacturing did not stand up to scrutiny. It does not compare to snowboard bindings. To argue that the quality of an iPhone aluminum case is better than a snowboard binding's aluminum chassis is a bit absurd.

I'm tempted to buy an Element case now. Actually, I just want one of the aluminum piece sides. I will strap it to my binding and ride with it this season. We'll see just how much higher quality they are.

About your point on the Vapor 4/comp being cheaper... EXACTLY! Why does Element charge so much more for the Pro? Same aluminum and process right? Unless the manufacturing process and aluminum grade for the Vapor 4 and Comps are cheaper. Well, Comp understandably cheaper due to plastic portion. But not all plastic is created equal. They can vary greatly in price as well so I can't knock that.

 

[iz2sick]

seriously, imho, if you can't afford the real thing, then don't bother with imitations. simple as that.

But why not? The imitations are good for the money. None of us are saying they are anywhere up to par with the real thing.

Sorry, but spending under $30 for aluminum cases is much more enticing than a cheap American silicone or rubber bumper.

Like I said, I didn't actively seek out these imitations. I was just Googling what I can get for my budget and this forum popped up. I see the knock-off thread.

I remembered seeing/hearing about Element before. I actually looked into Element because of this. Saw no justification for the price. This made me look into legit alternatives like e13ctrong. I went as far as to join their fan pages and follow them on Twitter.

I walked away with, eh, I don't really have any reason to feel bad about buying an Element knock-off. I already explained the reasoning thoroughly enough.

I'm not going to knock you for how you spend your money. Why are you knocking us for how we spend it? We're talking over a $100 difference here. This isn't a matter of a few bucks.

You know how cheap I can get iPhone skins? I choose to be loyal to Lucky Labs. EXCELLENT customer service. Very nice guy. He's so nice, that I even turned down a second back cover skin offer from him. Yes, he went so far to make sure that a customer is happy that the customer had to turn the offer down.

Regardless of what some have said about me, I'm not an immoral person.

 

[Vudoo]

Continue from other thread...

I said their high-end watches are hand-made and this is true. If you even do light research on this you will find it's true. I also addressed that the price premium isn't all about the parts. Rolex has decades and decades of proven durability and resell value behind them along with great customer service. This commands a premium. I'm not suggesting that they are the best watches. There are plenty of comparable quality watches. Heck, a good Swiss-made watch will last as long. My point is, Rolex isn't some brand like LV where it is purely about brand name. Brand name plays a big role in Rolex, but it's also the quality and resell value of them as well.

Which Rolex do you consider high end? The one I have on now is $11k. How about the $84k day date, which is not hand made either. It is hand finished. Rolex has done a very good job in terms of marketing to create an idea of what a swiss watchmaker is. I have bought a few Rolexes and have been on the Rolex forums for years where, so I know a thing or two about the product. If you're talking about a Patek, then that's hand made.

You did make an analogy comparing the two practices. Why did you even bring up the LV or Rolex subject then? Just to chat about? No, you were describing your purchasing ethics. PRINCIPLES. I was pointing out that the analogy you used is very, very different from that of a person who is purchasing a fake Element case. I also never called you an employee of Element.

Where did I make this analogy? I have never brought up LV in any of my posts, so this is telling me you are either confusing me with someone else or you're just making up stuff. By the way, I never accused you of calling me an employee of Element. I accused others who have had and you just decided to respond to those posts.

They aren't passing it as genuine. Ask any one of those sellers and they will tell you it's fake. They are going to great lengths to copy every aspect of the case so I won't argue that.

But this is a gun ownership type argument you are making. Do you blame the gun or the person that shoots it? I blame the person that shoots it. I will frown on eBay sellers trying to pass a fake case off as a real thing. I won't frown on someone who is knowingly purchasing a knock-off. That is petty and arrogant. Are you really judging someone's personal life based on a $20 purchase of a knock-off iPhone case? That is very petty don't you think?

I have looked at Ali Express and I haven't come across a seller that specifically states that they are selling a fake on their ad.

And trying to make the comparison to gun ownership is a weak argument. The fake companies are trying to pass their products as the real thing. If they were not, then they wouldn't be reproducing the box and certificate of authenticity. They are not disclaiming that their product is a fake or replica on their ads either. So you should be blaming the manufacturer of these fakes.

Again, I say use your critical eyes on these companies you support as well. So far, Anvil and DougNG have failed to stand up to the scrutiny of justifying costs associated with Element Vapor Pros.

And I will debate this as long as you guys keep posting condescending remarks towards the people purchasing these knock-offs. You were downright antagonistic in the Fake Vapor Pro thread Vudoo. You actively went into that thread to start a fire.

I suggest you go back to the fake vapor pro thread and re-read every single post I made. I just did and I didn't find anything condescending or antagonistic. This seems to be another case of you confusing me for someone else or you're making up stuff.

Don't lie Vudoo. You went into the Fake Vapor Pro specific thread and made some antagonistic posts. You were arrogant and condescending there. You are not innocent.

Some might be calling Element customers shill, but I am not. If you have the money to spend, spend it. I'm not going to judge you. It's your money and I would assume you are a tax payer like myself.

Just because you choose to spend your money differently than myself, is no reason for me to attack your personal views.

However, mine was very openly attacked to the point where my review on one of the knock-off cases was locked and shut down. All the while, review threads about knock-off e13ctrons and Swords, and Cleaves remain without any opposition.

It seems Element customers have more to fight about. Understandable as you guys made a pretty big investment. But seriously, do you need to be so antagonistic towards other human beings for spending their hard-earned money the way that they want?

Don't buy knock-offs if you don't like it. Stay away from the knock-off threads. But don't expect people like me to remain silent when you are borderline attacking me personally.

I've read a number of your posts and to me, it sounds like you're justifying your behavior and trying to intimidate others. In dealing with me, you've said that I said things that I never did to try to bolster your argument.

I have always stand against fakes so it's not limited to Element Case. Once I receive mine, I will make the decision if it's worth it or not. If it's not, I will tell people that it isn't, but I would never even suggest buying a fake.