Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[Bytor65]

You mean unlike right now, where a ton of would-be developpers are grabbing Xcode templates, throwing in an image or two and submitting their crap apps, overloading the approval queue ? Language/environnement means nothing in the face of crap apps overloading the approval queue.

Flashlights, farts and 1000s of girls! already proved this, all written in highly efficient Objective-C (do I really need the /sarcasm tag here ?).

In fact, I'd much rather have the guys who write Flash games doing iPhone games (some Flash stuff is very well done and very complex. And it ran fine on P2-333 ages ago...) or even .NET developpers using Monotouch than have a bunch of no-nothing kids writing Objective-C for the first time with stick figures.

I agree it is already a problem.

How do you think adding more with some kind of Flash-to-App converter is going to make it better??

I have already seen posts on this board that look like this: "This makes me mad. I want to make iPhone Apps, but I am not a programmer and have no time to learn Obj-C, but I know how to make actions scripts...."

Consider what you need right now now to build an iPhone apps:

A: A Mac (10% or less of market).
B: Some programing, willingness to learn platform (10% or less)
10% of 10% = 1%.

So say maybe 1% of population will make the cut to produce yet another iFart and some chunk of them will produce high quality.

Now open it too a Flash-to-App converter and what do you need:

A: A Mac or a PC (99% of the market).
B: Abilty to flash script (25%)

25% of 99 % = ~24%.

You now have a pool 24 Times as large for the next iFart....

Things would potentially be an order of magnitude worse than they are now. I actually think this is an underestimate given the "I am clueless newb and would like to use Flash to make apps" postings.

If Apple does indeed block this and all the script kiddies end up dumping their stuff on Android, that can only benefit Apple.

 

[Reed Rothchild]

If you're going to accuse someone of trolling, then maybe you better learn to recognize one instead of trying to flame/label someone instead of using actual logic or discussion to make your case. Otherwise, you sound like nothing more than another fanboy. I own two Apple Macs, two Apple TVs, an iPod Touch and have OSX on a Dell Netbook (and only one dedicated PC) and I'm somehow a "troll" because I don't blindly worship Apple like you do? You are completely out of touch with reality.

Mate, ignore *LTD*. He's a bot.

I agree with much of what you have to say. To be honest, if Apple hadn't moved to Intel I'd have abandoned the platform long ago. It was one of only a few technical achievements to come out of Cupertino in the last few years. The iPhone was great, but the popularity of it seems to have sidelined practically everything else. A lot of what Jobs has been selling since then is snake oil. It's important to follow this company with eyes wide open.

 

[poorpaddy]

So when is Adobe going to confront them by withholding CS5 or other versions of the software from the Mac OS. Adobe can easily have Apple by the balls by delaying CS5 for release on the Mac until CS6 or even CS7 is released on Windows. Adobe might even be able make a profit by it from having the product on the market for a longer duration and support fees.

I'm for it. Stevie boy seriously bit off more than he can chew. Having flash not supported is one thing but to saying a developer can't use their trades tools is another. I see lawsuits like that of Firefox browser, Google search and Real player surfacing soon.

 

[niuniu]

I'd much rather see these companies work together than see hostile shutouts like this. It's ugly and although Jobs may get his way, it's negative for Apple's image in the industry. I certainly have no respect for this sort of gameplay because in the meantime, we have gimped devices that are unable to view Flash, a major part of the web's operability. This doesn't look like Jobs has our best interests at heart, it looks like Jobs just wants to dominate, and is arrogantly telling the consumer, put up with it, if you don't like it pi*s off and buy something else. Ugly.

 

[TennisandMusic]

It's often all they can afford. Or they don't care in the first place.

This is what we learned from the Laptop Hunter commercials, which were laced with more overt Mac envy than you find in an Apple forum on a Saturday afternoon. In April.

Who has Mac envy exactly? Not me, if that's what you mean. I got my iPad sitting right next to me (which I love, and think is awesome for the most part), and I'm typing this right now on my mac lol. I've had the iMac 27", which I had to return multiple times for glaring defects and eventually got a refund...and would consider another iMac if they changed a few things, and am considering a new Mac Pro whenever they get released! I love Macs and OSX overall. Heck, I love Windows 7. They are all good. It's just that OSX has more deficiencies than Windows in total. I would LOVE to only use OSX, because I do like things that look nice, are well designed etc.

I come here because I like macs. I criticize Apple because I want and know they could be doing better. If I didn't like Apple I would be ambivalent about them. I'm sure there are people who hate Apple out of some strange deep rooted jealousy. On the other hand I criticize Apple because I really want to see more, and yet still suffer through the problems on a daily basis.

 

[Journojulz]

People buy Windows because they like it. Does that make sense? Who in their right mind spends money on something they hate?

Those that know no better - ie use the same OS they started with and haven't tried the alternative.

Those that shop on price alone or use the machines the company gives them

Is Word honestly better than Pages?
Or is it "what people know"?

Think of it like religions. How many christians would there be in the US if noone was brought up with "their way" and everyone had a free and informed choice at 16?

 

[TennisandMusic]

Those that know no better - ie use the same OS they started with and haven't tried the alternative.

Those that shop on price alone or use the machines the company gives them

Is Word honestly better than Pages?
Or is it "what people know"?

Think of it like religions. How many christians would there be in the US if noone was brought up with "their way" and everyone had a free and informed choice at 16?

What the...Christian bashing out of nowhere? Ok...well last time I checked everyone has a free choice whether it's religions or computing. Are you implying people with an informed choice are athiest OSX users? Haha.

Interesting question regarding pages and word. Pages is certainly nicer and fancier looking. I'm not a big fan of word personally...or office as a whole. It's so...blah looking. But I am pretty sure excel craps all over numbers in terms of productivity. Not that I need either really.

I was able to use pages to do some nice layout work that I had used InDesign for in the past. I liked it quite a bit. For the money, iWork is great.

For business in general? Maybe Office is still superior...not really my field. But don't be fooled by looks.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

No offense, but then those people are idiots. Save up a little longer and get what you want. I'm not saying that you can't like both. I like both OSX and Windows very much, while still recognizing where the problems are in both. But if I hated Windows and loved OSX, and bought a Windows machine just because it was cheaper, wouldn't that make me a fool? Just save up longer if needed.

Your bolded section is completely untrue as well. You can do more in Windows than you can in OSX, and it is extremely stable, secure (if you aren't clueless and installing bad things) and is more versatile and capable than OSX. I would prefer to use OSX all the time, but by nature of how it works Apple won't let me do that.

The bolded section is more about the hardware and it is true. The people I have met who opt for a $499 laptop with windows are often buying their first computer. They think that since all they are mostly typing word documents and making spreadsheets, that the other features they like on my computer are just fluff. They don't realize the hardware is not the same quality for $499.

And the hardware is intimately linked to the OS in this discussion because the statement usually made is that Apple is too expensive to use. But there is in fact a hardware difference between the two. Pricing OS X and Windows 7 in a box is another matter (if you do not have to purchase the computer).

I don't find OS X to be lacking in anyway. Almost everything I need to do, I can do in that OS. The few times I need a windows application I launch VMware, run it and take my results into OS X environment to work up the data.

Usually when I hear people say they are limited in OS X, it is coming from a teenager who gets a thrill out of gathering illegal copies of music and movies that are usually not top quality. The goal is usually to spend time collecting all that stuff and never actually enjoying it. I've seen the same with game systems. The person with 50+ games on their PS3 and not enough time to ever actually play all of them.

 

[Reed Rothchild]

Those that know no better - ie use the same OS they started with and haven't tried the alternative.

Those that shop on price alone or use the machines the company gives them

Is Word honestly better than Pages?
Or is it "what people know"?

For me, yes Word is better than Pages. I can use it on my Mac and switch to my corporate laptop without relearning or concerning myself with compatibility. Word is the industry standard within a corporate environment. Try sending a Pages doc to your Windows using line manager.

Think of it like religions. How many christians would there be in the US if noone was brought up with "their way" and everyone had a free and informed choice at 16?

What a bizarre comparison .

 

[!¡ V ¡!]

I could've understood Adobe if they were right. But then truth is, flash definitely sucks. A performance hog and most importantly is the main reason for web dirtiness. I'm not a fanboy, just a guy who has definitely witnessed Flash's unnecessity.

Go screw yourself Lee Brimelow...

Though I am neutral regarding Adobe Flash online content being a resource hog since my experience on a C2D SR MBP runs hot when viewing flash content and my iMac C2D White does not. Which leads me to believe that both have nVidia GPU and both run SL. Now if all I had was my MBP I would have claimed that Flash is a hog. However my experience is both positive and negative and I suspect that it could be a matter or Flash and some other hardware related problem causing some conflict.

 

[Plainview]

So when is Adobe going to confront them by withholding CS5 or other versions of the software from the Mac OS. Adobe can easily have Apple by the balls by delaying CS5 for release on the Mac until CS6 or even CS7 is released on Windows. Adobe might even be able make a profit by it from having the product on the market for a longer duration and support fees.

I'm for it. Stevie boy seriously bit off more than he can chew. Having flash not supported is one thing but to saying a developer can't use their trades tools is another. I see lawsuits like that of Firefox browser, Google search and Real player surfacing soon.

Tell me, do you actually read threads before you post in them?

 

[WilliamLondon]

Mate, ignore *LTD*. He's a bot.

And by that (simplistic) logic, you're a troll! What a silly thing to put labels on people.

I happen to think a lot (most, all?) of what he says makes perfect sense. Does that make me a bot too?

No matter how bad you think someone is, speaking in front of someone like they're not there is worse.

 

[vvebsta]

I don't understand what all the griping is about. Don't you want better performance and better battery life? A better experience for the user? Why is anyone arguing this? It's freaking HTML5, it's built off the most basic web language there is! Almost every coder in the world starts off by learning HTML. It's the most basic language on the web. Get on board people, Apple isn't the only one pushing it, Microsoft and the IE9 team are all very excited about it because it's a better user experience.

Am I wrong?

 

[*LTD*]

WI criticize Apple because I want and know they could be doing better.

• Record Mac sales for over 20 successive quarters
• iMacs to account for 25% of all desktop sales for 2010
• Most profitable computer business in the industry.
• $40 billion in spare cash. No debts. Recession-proof.
• Total command of the Premium end of the computer market
• Highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry for several years running for Macs, iPhones, iPods
• Highest customer service satisfaction ratings several years running
• 25% of the US smartphone market in less than three years, while completely reshaping the market almost overnight
• The most successful App Store with no end to growth in sight
• A complete hardware-software ecosystem that is the envy of the industry
• Total dominance of the handheld mediaplayer industry (iPods, iPod Touches)
• OS X the Gold Standard of operating systems, including the iPhone OS
• iPad received with excitement and praise, expected to revolutionize the computing industry. Already sold over half a million units. 20 million expected by 2012. The industry squarely behind it, content providers lining up to be a part of it. Developers happy like pigs in ****. Topped all sales of previous tablets combined. Again, Apple either changed a market overnight or created a new one.

How much "better" would you like them to do? Would you like an Apple-branded flying car that serves you tea while rubbing your back? Perhaps an OS X-powered personal mechanical butler that also transforms into a jet? At some point all this infinite progression of "I know Apple can do better" baloney needs to stop. Apple *is* doing better, almost on a monthly basis.

 

[Bytor65]

Do you not realize how myopic your arguments are? Vista is a massive flop? I'm not saying it was the best OS (though I tried it after SP1 and was surprised at how much better I thought it was than XP), but Vista sold a crapload of copies. It was popular. I know you can just say it was because "it's all people can choose!" but that simply is not, and was not, the case. Also, Apple marketing is just that, marketing. Not everyone thinks the "get a mac" ads are accurate. In fact, I imagine many people find them annoying to the nth degree.

People buy Windows because they like it. Does that make sense? Who in their right mind spends money on something they hate?

Let me answer that as a former OS/2 user that absolutely hated Win 3.1 and the dirty tricks Microsoft did in those days that helped kill OS/2.

I hated Win3.1 and I paid for it and used it because it was the platform. For years I held my nose and purchased new MS OS. Such is the power of monopoly. But I thought XP was a decent product, it was rock stable for me and I never had virus issues and Win7 is quite decent. Still don't like Microsoft much though.

Lots of Vista sold, because lots of PCs sold, and they generally come with whatever MS ships.

Vista was a modern Windows ME. The quality was higher than ME because everything has better qualtiy today, but in perception and market success. Vista == ME.

 

[degsyuk]

No technical merit

I've spent ages reading most of the posts on this topic. So here's my take.

This feels like a tactical business (defensive) decision, not a technical one, not anti-Adobe, anti-Unity or anti-anybody else.

Cross platform developement tools will give an advantage to competitors producing rival ipad / iphone / ipod rival products that are coming to market in 2010 by enabling them to have a full complement of applications at their launch. These applications will be close enough to their iphone / ipad /ipod counterparts to negate one of the key unique selling points of the Apple product line.

By compelling developers to fully commit to the Apple platform it makes them less likely to develop for rival products thereby protecting Apple's considerable investment in it's platform.

I'm guessing (again), that Apple doesn't care about the success or failure of A N Other company providing that success isn't made on the back of Apple intellectual property.

If I'm correct and Apple can make it stick, then as business decisions go this is 1st class.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

I'd much rather see these companies work together than see hostile shutouts like this. It's ugly and although Jobs may get his way, it's negative for Apple's image in the industry. I certainly have no respect for this sort of gameplay because in the meantime, we have gimped devices that are unable to view Flash, a major part of the web's operability. This doesn't look like Jobs has our best interests at heart, it looks like Jobs just wants to dominate, and is arrogantly telling the consumer, put up with it, if you don't like it pi*s off and buy something else. Ugly.

1. Apple is not banning flash from computers, just mobile devices.
2. iphone is not the only smart phone you can't use flash on
3. Once adobe adapts, they will be a better company and they should thank Apple for making them innovate and make better products.

 

[rkuntze]

Who cares

Who cares what Lee Brimelow does or doesn't do.

 

[Reed Rothchild]

And by that (simplistic) logic, you're a troll! What a silly thing to put labels on people.

I happen to think a lot (most, all?) of what he says makes perfect sense. Does that make me a bot too?

No, it doesn't. Agreeing with the bot statements is not the same as generating the bot statements.

No matter how bad you think someone is, speaking in front of someone like they're not there is worse.

I'm pretty sure he/she/it can handle it .

 

[Journojulz]

What the...Christian bashing out of nowhere? Ok...well last time I checked everyone has a free choice whether it's religions or computing.

Check again.

Most people are brought up to believe in the faith of their parents community. There is no "free choice".

Interesting question regarding pages and word. Pages is certainly nicer and fancier looking. I'm not a big fan of word personally...or office as a whole. It's so...blah looking. But I am pretty sure excel craps all over numbers in terms of productivity. Not that I need either really.

Most people use computers as a means to and end, to make letters, work out budgets, slideshow presentations.

In these respects, pages, numbers and keynote are nicer to use.

Office is the leaders today because it what people know.

(Your overall point, i get BTW. Good discussing with you.)

For me, yes Word is better than Pages. I can use it on my Mac and switch to my corporate laptop without relearning or concerning myself with compatibility. Word is the industry standard within a corporate environment. Try sending a Pages doc to your Windows using line manager.

So its only better because "everyone else uses it"?

That says much indeed........

But yes - its annoying that i have to dumb down documents and presentations because office can't handle 2 columns on a text box.

[/QUOTE]What a bizarre comparison .[/QUOTE]

True though. Wait until someone reaches adulthood before making an independent choice and religious demographics would shift.

All those people putting Jedi on the census forms? - Buddha would pick up a lot of fans there.

 

[Journojulz]

edit - double post

 

[John.B]

Merely valid Objective C is not the problem. Everybody is barking up the wrong tree. (It's probably just a graduate homework assignment to turn LLVM output into bad Obj C source code.)

It's the API translation issue (megabytes of it).

A standard Cocoa Touch button in Objective C: 1 line of code to create it, 1 line of code to place it in a view (or both in a xib), 1 line of code to start responding to a user's tap. 3 API calls.

Does the CS5 tool do this? Could the CS5 tool do this? No and No. The Cocoa Touch button doesn't look and act *exactly* like a flash API button (or else it wouldn't be cross-platform portable). So there's library code to build it, code to draw it, code to convert touches into mouse events (because that's what flash buttons handle), code to redraw the button when hit, redraw when under flash pop-ups, and etc.

Instead of 3 lines of Obj C, the tool calls 100's, maybe 1000's of lines of flash library code and wierd API calls only distantly related to the UIButton. Plus the button now looks (maybe even smells) funny to an iPhone user.

Apple wants to optimize Obj C button handling (save power or sprinkle fairy-dust between taps or some such)? Easy, they find my 3 lines of API calls and handler. Apple wants to optimize button handling inside the flash cruft: Good luck even finding this "button" code without an FBI search warrant. User's battery dies and she blames Apple.

That's the real reason why Apple is kicking out Adobe's CS5 tool.

ihmo.

Easily, this is the best post of the week.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

You might want to try another line of defense; declaring how many Macs you have to prove your point is like a closet racist trying to deny his racist tendencies by saying "I know some black people, so I can't be a racist!"

Just sayin'. (I'm not implying you're a racist either, so don't go there if you were thinking about it.)

Why is it that fanboys cannot accept that in order to like something, you do not have to like something else? I like OSX better than Windows in "most" areas, but that does NOT mean I have to like Apple as a company or from an ethical standpoint. I don't happen to like Microsoft either for that matter, but that doesn't mean I won't use their products if they suit my needs.

This idea that you must "love Apple" or you're a "troll" is one of the STUPIDEST (and certainly myopic) ideas I've ever seen. Nowhere have I made ANY remark that wasn't sincere or representing my views on Apple and the Mac OS. Anyone who has ever seen ANY of my posts can plainly see my opinions are consistent. So in short, the idea of fanatics labeling anyone whose opinion they don't like (which would be anyone that does not agree with them) as "trolls" is just plain illogical and a poor cover for a total lack of an ability to actually discuss something as opposed to just shouting "troll" and hoping some moderator will agree and ban the person for giving their honest opinion. It's not only lame, it's just downright unethical. (kind of reminds me of Republicans shouting out things like "baby killer" or "liar" in Congress instead of having honest debate or admitting they lost the vote. Creating fear and paranoia is never an ethical grounds to base a campaign and yet that is what we see time and time again in politics and also apparently message boards on such mundane topics as the rights of companies to try and thwart competition instead of actually competing).

I won't even touch your comparison to closet racists....WTF did that come from?

 

[TennisandMusic]

Check again.

Most people are brought up to believe in the faith of their parents community. There is no "free choice".



Most people use computers as a means to and end, to make letters, work out budgets, slideshow presentations.

In these respects, pages, numbers and keynote are nicer to use.

Office is the leaders today because it what people know.

(Your overall point, i get BTW. Good discussing with you.)

I really don't think you should be bringing the bolded part into these forums, I do disagree with you on this, but does it matter here? Could get ugly.

As far as Office vs iWork, I don't know if it's solely because people know Office. Though I do prefer iWork myself for general use. My resume is done in Pages. ;-)

*LTD*, I guess it is impossible to discuss anything with you. I could easily make a large list regarding Apple could be doing better, but you are simply throwing out dollar figures. I am talking about actual quality of work, which would increase those figures you just love to tout (and you aren't even part of Apple, this is what confuses me...why do you care so much?). There are plenty of people who don't buy macs because they simply aren't capable enough.

To everyone who thinks Vista was a "flop" and a "disaster" I will say this...Apple would love for OSX to have Vista's level of success. Absolutely love. Vista had problems, sure, but didn't 10.0? And 10.1...and wait...10.6?? Come on now...I don't use Vista, but just...give it a rest.

 

[John.B]

This was posted on another forum. It has an interesting take. I thought you guys might enjoy reading it.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/04/10/five-tremendous-apple-vs-adobe-flash-myths/

I don't know anyone who takes that guy seriously.