Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[kernkraft]

This is an absolute riot. Adobe hates Apple, Apple hates Adobe. Bah blah blah.

They sound like two kids on the playground.

This is the biggest playground fight, since Billy went down to the park and started playing with browsers. I can't even remember, where Stevie was at the time.

I always recommend Sony. Because they are my client

I am a Pro (MacBook Pro), but I haven't got clients. And no, Pro doesn't stand for 'professional'. What should I do? Please, discuss!


My girlfriend is a big Pro. She used to be 15" but she's 17" now.

Mine is getting smaller. But enough of tech speak, let's talk about our genitals!

 

[MorphingDragon]

The thing that looks like a cupholder? .

You mean the optical drive.

 

[drtimhill]

Don't you dare purposely misrepresent what I wrote like that!

I wrote They also said "we don't have time to do a comprehensive evaluation of every tool out there to see how well it works, so we're specifying some that, when used properly, result in apps which have adequate efficiency (storage, RAM, and CPU cycle usage).

Now, you show me where I said that only the tools that Apple specified were efficient. Or apologize. I'm fine with either.

No, they said they are MANDATING, not specifying. That's a totally different thing.

Are you being purposefully Obtuse, or are you just ignorant about the effects of using Virtual Machines, Run Time Translation layers have on the performance of resource constrained machines?

There is also the lowest common denominator result of using cross platform tools.

This is all about a very sensible prohibition against those resource sucking extra layers. I shouldn't have to explain this to a seasoned developer.

ok, one at a time...

1. This has nothing to do with VMs, JITs etc etc. And yes I'm *very* aware of the overhead of such technologies. Apple didn't say "don't use inefficient technology" they said "You must use THIS technology."

2.Er, xcode is based on GCC, which *is* a cross-platform tool. Your point?

3. It's not a prohibition against resource sucking layers, it's a prohibition against ALL alternate technologies, resource-sucking or not.

 

[kernkraft]

kernkraft may find the feature impressive though...

What do you mean?

 

[cmaier]

ok, one at a time...

1. This has nothing to do with VMs, JITs etc etc. And yes I'm *very* aware of the overhead of such technologies. Apple didn't say "don't use inefficient technology" they said "You must use THIS technology."

If they had said the former, everyone would complain that they are being too vague.

 

[drtimhill]

That's nice. If you really had written several OSs, why is it that you never learned that letting apps have unfettered access to everything is a formula for disaster?

Er, where did i say that? An app running in iPhone OS has access to the instruction set of the underlying CPU and whatever services it can either load into it's address space as libraries or are provided by the core OS. Standard process model, has been for decades. You seem to be confusing enforcement of good application behavior at run-time with enforcement of development tool selection, which are two totally different things.

In fact I applaud Apples attempts to enforce good app behavior with sandboxes etc etc. But trying to do so by mandating the toolchain is a slippery slope to nowhere.

 

[awmazz]

This is an absolute riot. Adobe hates Apple, Apple hates Adobe. Bah blah blah.

They sound like two kids on the playground.

Actually sounds like two businesses to me. Nothing personal, just two wildcatters trying to position themselves to take control of the Texas oilfields as the automobile (mobile) takes over from horse-drawn buggies (desktop).

Funny how Microsoft's not in this picture even with Windows Phone 7. They're not in the same position of taking everybody by surprise and striking paydirt first like they did with IBM PCs. Apple and Jobs have lived through that experience already on the receiving end after starting so well with the Apple II, so it's no surprise they want to hold onto their stake this time against all claim-jumpers by whatever means possible. Enough of the mining analogies from me now I think..

 

[John.B]

of course adobe has more motivations, he was probably not hiding it, if you read his previous entries.

Adobe just need to stop all products on mac and stick with windows, androids, webos and BB. They will be so much happier and get a better future.

Thanks, clevin, I had completely overlooked that to-do to nuke all the Mozilla stuff off my Macs.

OBTW, Adobe can't afford to lose that kind of revenue stream. And they know it. But thanks for playing!

Remind me again, what was another smartphone that supports a full Flash player?

Adobe should just release the flash support on Cydia. Then the community can decide if they want to use the so called "power/CPU hog" or not. It seems to work just fine on other phones

Really? Which ones?

 

[bcotten]

Really? Which ones?

I'm not sure what OP was referring to, but I do know that you can try out iPhone Apps built in Flash for yourself - they're in the App Store.

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashcs5/appsfor_iphone/

 

[firewood]

For the record, there are iPhone apps, made in flash, available for download from the App Store. They work beautifully.

The issue isn't that these flash ported apps wouldn't work beautifully (in your opinion). The issue is that they might work even better (less memory usage to allow more multi-tasking from other apps, less battery life usage, etc.) if they were done using supported tools better matched to Apple's OS libraries, and also how much room there is for rapid improvement, especially given quickly evolving new OS APIs and improving OS (4.0, 5.0, etc.) support for apps that directly use the current APIs.

And if Apple is to stay ahead of Google, they don't need a larger number of apps that work just a beautifully as on Android (MS7, et.al.) written by platform neutral developers. They more need to "encourage" a smaller number of more talented developers to write apps that will eventually become (given just a smidgen of competition) better than what's available for Android, on average, because they are tuned to Apple's platform.

Given that on the order of 100k devs are signed up, Apple can afford to lose a few thousand who aren't really that interested in Apple's platform (enough to learn Obj C, etc.). Other developers will jump into the opening opportunities that are left behind by the ones who give up.

Time will tell whether this strategy will succeed.

imho.

 

[bcotten]

The issue isn't that these flash ported apps wouldn't work beautifully (in your opinion). The issue is that they might work even better (less memory usage to allow more multi-tasking from other apps, less battery life usage, etc.) if they were done using supported tools better matched to Apple's OS libraries, and also how much room there is for rapid improvement, especially given quickly evolving new OS APIs and improving OS (4.0, 5.0, etc.) support for apps that directly use the current APIs.

And if Apple is to stay ahead of Google, they don't need a larger number of apps that work just a beautifully as on Android (MS7, et.al.) written by platform neutral developers. They more need to "encourage" a smaller number of more talented developers to write apps that will eventually become (given just a smidgen of competition) better than what's available for Android, on average, because they are tuned to Apple's platform.

Given that on the order of 100k devs are signed up, Apple can afford to lose a few who aren't really that interested in Apple's platform (enough to learn Obj C, etc.). Other developers will jump into the opening opportunities that are leave behind by the ones who give up.

Time will tell whether this strategy will succeed.

imho.

"The issue is that they might work even better..."
iyho indeed.

Crappy developers will develop crappy apps.

 

[awmazz]

For the record, there are iPhone apps, made in flash, available for download from the App Store. They work beautifully.

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashcs5/appsfor_iphone/

I just downloaded the new Adobe Ideas vector drawing app which was launched today. I wonder if it complies with the new edict.

Anyway, that third video in your link appears to be exactly the crux of the problem.

Edit: Ideas appears to be a raster drawing app and not a vector one as I assumed.

 

[firewood]

This is the biggest playground fight, since Billy went down to the park and started playing with browsers. I can't even remember, where Stevie was at the time.

Stevie was at the Next playground over, where Timmy was playing with one of his toys and created the sandpile on which Marky built the first browser. Billy copied Marky's browser and got everybody to think his copy was newer and shinier.

 

[aristotle]

I am a software developer .. however I have not much worked with 3D/Graphics in general.

That said. If your OS is having trouble because to ressources in two different programs being launched share a name .. well then you are into deep sh** I agree.

The bloating in those shared apps usually comes from to many lines of code being used and too many libs being linked, not ressources like images being compiled in.

T.

This has nothing specific to do with 3D/graphics. When dealing with any sort large data set, you do not want to load all of it in one go if it is likely to exceed the available memory. Rather, you would want to implement paging of your data needs whether it be gfx or or financial data. To do otherwise could result in extremely poor performance and it means that your program is a poor citizen in a multi-tasking environment. Leaning on the OS vm paging is a bad thing to do in any environment but especially on a mobile platform.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Typical lies:



No, there is indeed a rational defense for this stance: Flash is a proprietary standard controlled by a single company that Apple has no say over. HTML 5, in contrast, is an open standard that anyone can use.

Here's another rational defense: Unless you are very careful in your development, Flash is a resource hog that would downgrade many user's experiences. Moving to HMTL 5 is a better choice.

You may disagree with both thoughts, but they are not irrational even if you disagree. So he lied.

So I guess you have no idea what this is even about. At no point is HTML5 a topic in this debate. None. Not related. It's about exporting iphone apps. Period.

If people want to back Apple, at least understand the topic.

 

[tatonka]

Fixed in next version. I agree, direct print is a problem, but wasn't for the iPhone really - I mean, that's a smartphone, not intended to do office work. In the iPad, yes, it's missing - direct print becomes a serious issue. Agreed, but fixed next OS version.



The iPad reads an SD card.



Don't care about proprietary formats, I want them eliminated from the web.



Multiple browsers - why in the world do we need multiple browsers? Why? They all are free, and all perform the same function, to view the web. I'm okay with Apple picking one and sticking with that one, if it doesn't do what you want (other than Flash) then it should be raised as a feature request. Other than that, it's silly, the browser is merely the framing of the web window you view. Do I care what that is? Not really, but I want it to work and be fast and secure.



I have a 2TB drive that I carry around with me and plug into the wall - it's great. For those times I need more, I have an 8 TB drive I carry around with me. When I need all that, I carry them all in a little red wagon. How ridiculous. The form factor of the iPad (which we are talking about in a Flash bitching session) is small, and there are trade-offs. Oh my!

If storage is really a big issue, this is a mobile device with wifi and 3G in the next version - there is the cloud, or your other computing devices. Is there really a need to carry around 250GB of data all the time for a small device, which is complementary to your other computers? I mean, if you can't install (and don't) every browser, and every application your OEM version of the OS wants you to trial, and every driver for every eventual device which you may at one point in the future hook up to it, is there really a need for such storage?



You bought on price, so what? What's the form factor? You've not really identified anything that you can do that the iPad doesn't, except for Flash, and that's being rectified.

Sorry .. I mistook you for somebody interested in a serious discussion. You asked :

Is there anything you wouldn't be able to do on an iPad that the Netbook allows you to install? I'm curious because people on here just spout, "closed system" and don't say what apps it's missing they would want.

So I told you why I bought a netbook.

I am going to probably make the same mistake again by responding to some of you points.

The iPad needs an adapter to read SD Cards and it can only do that if wouldn't be charging or use the one connector for anything else.

Why would I raise a feature request and wait for someone to implement that (and we all know how fast that works in Cupertino) if there is a Browser that does all the stuff I want? Don't know if you knew, but with plugins you are able to customize your "web experience". Whether that is flash or noflash plugins, or ad-block or what ever the hell you want.

So you have an external HDD to store your data on? Great, because you are not going to be accessing that for your iPad either, so you also need to carry a real computer along to sync the data you need on the go.

And finally, I don't about your money tree in the backyard, but for me, the price is a point I consider before buying things. I don't neccesarily buy the cheapest product, but the price needs to fit the services/product I buy.

And again, that is why I bought a netbook and I am telling you since you asked. You seem to have made a decision for an iPad already and that is great for you, if that is what you want. Whatever floats your boat.

T.

 

[tatonka]

This has nothing specific to do with 3D/graphics. When dealing with any sort large data set, you do not want to load all of it in one go if it is likely to exceed the available memory. Rather, you would want to implement paging of your data needs whether it be gfx or or financial data. To do otherwise could result in extremely poor performance and it means that your program is a poor citizen in a multi-tasking environment. Leaning on the OS vm paging is a bad thing to do in any environment but especially on a mobile platform.

I think I know what you want to say, however I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that compiling ressources into the "binary" is what these cross compilers do and what makes them sub-par?

T.

 

[kernkraft]

Stevie was at the Next playground over, where Timmy was playing with one of his toys and created the sandpile on which Marky built the first browser. Billy copied Marky's browser and got everybody to think his copy was newer and shinier.

Ah, I remember something now!

These children never learn, do they! But this would surely make a great cartoon strip.



EDIT: WOW! 25.000 views! People are genuinely interested!

Hello! People! Can you see me?! Hello! Whoo! Hi! Can you wave?

 

[fmaxwell]

No, they said they are MANDATING, not specifying. That's a totally different thing.

Don't try to change the subject and play games with semantics.

You accused me of asserting that only the tools specified by Apple produce good code. I made no such assertion.

 

[richardtengcy]

The negative post i have been reading in here is mostly complaints from Flash Developer, people who felt sorry for Adobe, people who felt Apple is becoming the next Microsoft.

To Flash developer - If you want to earn money from us (iPhone user) go back to programming basic (C,C#,javacript..) and start learning in order to design apps for us to buy or download! Don`t be lazy like Adobe!

To people who felt sorry for Adobe - I sympathize just like the rest of you on Adobe that their hard work has been put to the drain BUT they can only blame themselves for this matter. They should have ask Apple for advise about their product development so that it will not clash just like this SDK agreement clause we are discussing here. They never dare to ask is because of the sour relationship between Apple and Adobe. And do you know what causes their relationship sour? (It's Flash....)

To those who felt that Apple is becoming the next Microsoft - As long as Apple continue to provide me the best services and customer user experiences in their products, I REALLY don`t care what Apple will become in the future.

Apple has been campaigning HTML5, a future open web standard that will make our web experiences better but it was Adobe that keep blocking HTML5 in being accepted in any platform or browser. I saw the ad done in iAd using html5 and it was gorgeous. Adobe should embrace HTML5 technology into their software or else, they will have a hard time ahead.

I believe what Apple and Steve Jobs have done so far is for the best of interest of their customer user experiences in using their product.

 

[fmaxwell]

Does that sound like the beginning to a fruitful discussion as I wanted? Maybe a rambling remedial something or other would be better.

Better for you, maybe, but I don't have the time for it.

...but people defending Apple's draconian step to now limit cross-compiling worries me especially with only nebulous claims about speed and stability to back them up.

Steve Jobs has now said "We've been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform." That's not "nebulous." It's a specific claim based on years of observation.

I regularly use apps developed with tools outside the SDK and that call APIs Apple would never let a third party developer have access to

What happens when Apple releases a new version of the OS that changes the undocumented, private, internal APIs, and the applications break? Apple gets phone calls, bad press, and unhappy users who don't have a clue about what APIs are, how the apps are developed, and why Apple isn't to blame for their apps breaking.

Why should the App Store be the ONLY acceptable method for installing software?

Because some person with an iPhone doesn't want to discover that the new battery meter app they installed is logging their keystrokes and sending them to some kid in Uzbekistan. They don't want to find out that the nifty business card app was actually a trojan horse that is staying 3G-connected 24/7 while sending out spam. They don't want to have to reset their phone to factory defaults because the poorly written app they installed walked all over configuration files. And finally, because it's Apple's product and Apple's business model.

Was it fair for Apple to prevent third party developers like Google from using APIs that were merely undocumented...

Are you serious? Google entered into a legal agreement in order to use the SDK, violated the terms of that agreement for financial gain, and now you are accusing Apple of behaving unfairly? Google agreed to the following in order to use the SDK:

3.2 Use of the SDK
As a condition to using the SDK, You agree that:
...
(c) Your Application will be developed in compliance with the Documentation and the Program Requirements, the current set of which is set forth in Section 3.3 below;
...
3.3 Program Requirements for Applications
Any Application developed using this SDK must comply with these criteria and requirements, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time:
APIs and Functionality:
3.3.1 Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.​

Remind me to never enter into a contract with you.

Even if these did seriously upend the embedded system, can't those who want to "live on the edge" with their hardware be allowed to make their own choice in the matter?

Apple could allow them to, but chose not to. And Apple could, at the same time, allowed complete neophytes to download apps -- ones that accessed private APIs -- from random web sites, completely oblivious to the fact that they were 'living on the edge.' And then Apple support and the iPhone carrier could have fielded the tech support calls from angry, confused users when things broke.

Next you can explain how cross-compiling hinders the end user, especially with plenty of cross-compiled apps already successfully being used

By providing that user with substandard applications that underperform and that interfere with multitasking due to their inefficient use of RAM and CPU cycles.

What I'm getting at is this seems like the beginning of a slippery slope

First you complain about Apple's policy on cross-compilers. You get angry about it. This seems like the beginning of a slippery slope that will just end with you going on a shooting spree in an Apple store. We better lock you up now.

That's why "slippery slope" is a recognized logical fallacy.

 

[DMann]

Couldn't disagree more - Apple has never made a program as powerful as Photoshop, Illustrator or After Effects. Yeah, Premier has sucked but it is quickly catching up and may surpass FC on Monday.

Want to talk about "lazy" - FCS STILL isn't cocoa 64 and there's no good reason why it shouldn't be by now.

Perhaps they never had the need to, (up until now) although, Logic Pro is quite an extraordinary achievement, as is FCS, which to date, trounces Premier, in more ways than ten.

I highly doubt Adobe Premier will ever reach the levels of speed, responsiveness, refinement of UI design and functionality, or caliber of FCS.

Yeah, FCS ought to be Cocoa by now, but we really don't know the reasons for the delay - no one has yet ported an app or suite the size of CS, MS Office, or FCS, for that matter, from Carbon to Cocoa, so we’re dealing with unknown territory.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Perhaps they never had the need to, (up until now) although, Logic Pro is quite an extraordinary achievement, as is FCS, which to date, trounces Premier, in more ways than ten.

I highly doubt Adobe Premier will ever reach the levels of speed, responsiveness, refinement of UI design and functionality, or caliber of FCS.

Yeah, FCS ought to be Cocoa by now, but we really don't know the reasons for the delay - no one has yet ported an app or suite the size of CS, MS Office, or FCS, for that matter, from Carbon to Cocoa, so we’re dealing with unknown territory.

Honestly, in the group of design people I know, Premier is laughed at!

Why on earth you would choose Premier over AVID or FCS is beyond me.

 

[DMann]

Honestly, in the group of design people I know, Premier is laughed at!

Why on earth you would choose Premier over AVID or FCS is beyond me.

True that.

Premier has been off the table for quite some time now.

We've been working with both AVID and FCS.

 

[csimmons]

Why is it that fanboys cannot accept that in order to like something, you do not have to like something else? I like OSX better than Windows in "most" areas, but that does NOT mean I have to like Apple as a company or from an ethical standpoint. I don't happen to like Microsoft either for that matter, but that doesn't mean I won't use their products if they suit my needs.

This idea that you must "love Apple" or you're a "troll" is one of the STUPIDEST (and certainly myopic) ideas I've ever seen. Nowhere have I made ANY remark that wasn't sincere or representing my views on Apple and the Mac OS. Anyone who has ever seen ANY of my posts can plainly see my opinions are consistent. So in short, the idea of fanatics labeling anyone whose opinion they don't like (which would be anyone that does not agree with them) as "trolls" is just plain illogical and a poor cover for a total lack of an ability to actually discuss something as opposed to just shouting "troll" and hoping some moderator will agree and ban the person for giving their honest opinion. It's not only lame, it's just downright unethical. (kind of reminds me of Republicans shouting out things like "baby killer" or "liar" in Congress instead of having honest debate or admitting they lost the vote. Creating fear and paranoia is never an ethical grounds to base a campaign and yet that is what we see time and time again in politics and also apparently message boards on such mundane topics as the rights of companies to try and thwart competition instead of actually competing).

I won't even touch your comparison to closet racists....WTF did that come from?

No need to get defensive;
1. YOU were the one trying to quantify your position by sharing how many Apple products you own.

2. I don't need to know anything about Jobs' personality to know that Apple makes great products. In fact, I could care less if Jobs was a saint or the biggest a**hole on the planet; Apple has achieved spectacular results under his leadership since 1997, that's all that really counts. I certainly don't form my opinion about a company's products based on the character traits of the CEO.

As to your opinions on Apple in general; I find it fascinating that people are so quick to defend their criticisms Apple, yet fail to recognize that other people have a right to criticize their criticism and are quick to label such criticisms as "fanboy" talk. That is the essence of free speech. You have every right to criticize Apple for whatever reason; I have every right to criticize your criticism.