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That first link you posted is related. ATT has been developing my area for the past few years but everyone who has it has been told they're abandoning the infrastructure as it'll be too costly to maintain to adhere to new guidance. I've only heard that from my neighbors who have gotten phone calls from ATT citing their inability to adhere to FCC Open Internet Order 2010 §8.7 due to the cost of building or maintaining the infrastructure at our location. If you actually read that, I don't think hardware falls into that, but I guess ATT is just trying to make an excuse to get out of our network after a failed expansion attempt. At least I won't get the advertisement fliers anymore. Our alternate, Comcast use to be a horrible option around here but they've sense built up their infrastructure. IPV6 still has issues but I've found if I force my network to use IPV4.

I'm pretty sure the new rules are not the reason as last I checked, they haven't released the 332 page document yet: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...net-neutrality-up-for-vote-today-by-fcc-board. Apparently, it'll be contested, though I don't expect the republican party to be able to really do anything with as divided as the party is.

The other company just can't compete because of lack of speed...5 MBit is what they had. They were just over the old rules of 4 MBit (http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netsp/broadband-redefined-by-the-fcc.html). With that gone, hopefully the local prices don't shoot up. They have a cable line monopoly here and I won't even touch that because of the price, a little under $350 for internet and TV after the deal period ended the last time I used them. Now I just pay $65 for internet and $110 for DirecTV. Less of a pain than having to go into the store to negotiate a new price. (I really shouldn't complain as gas has managed to go up by $1 in about 3-4 weeks, made 2.06 low and now back up to 3.15.

The DSL thing was way in the past...1990's when I heard everyone trying to explain why it was only barely faster than dial up. I kept hearing there were legal fights but I have no reference. It may not have actually been what everyone was telling me back then, especially since few even used the internet to look for the actual reason.
DSL is it's own choke point. Since it runs off of the copper phone lines there is no physical way to speed it up past a certain point. In fact that farther away you get from the switch the slower it becomes.

The fact that your ISP was not able to get above 4 Mbps means you have a crap ISP.

----------

I'm not saying anything to any of you anymore until I see you quote EXACTLY the following.

Quote:
"I know more about Net Neutrality than Mark Cuban. Not only does he not know what he's talking about, but his decades of business experience in spaces related to this topic PALE in comparison to the level of knowledge that I possess on the issue. I understand the fact that Mark Cuban has amassed BILLIONS of dollars by creating wealth through businesses that had to, in part, consider the internet as one of the dynamic variables related to it. I also understand that even though I have managed to amass a completely insignificant amount of wealth compared to Mark Cuban, and even though I do not have any experience operating multi-hundred million dollar businesses directly related to this space, or creating self-directed wealth in general, and even though nobody even knows, or cares who I am, I am undeterred in my assertion that I (State your name) know more about net neutrality, business, and wealth creation than Mark Cuban. This is why he is wrong and I am right. I know more than Mark Cuban."

You either post that, or you admit that you're wrong by default. So let's hear it.
I remember this article that was posted last fall.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/25/...ality-and-internet-fast-lanes-with-mark-cuban
 
I'm not saying anything to any of you anymore until I see you quote EXACTLY the following.

Quote:
"I know more about Net Neutrality than Mark Cuban. Not only does he not know what he's talking about, but his decades of business experience in spaces related to this topic PALE in comparison to the level of knowledge that I possess on the issue. I understand the fact that Mark Cuban has amassed BILLIONS of dollars by creating wealth through businesses that had to, in part, consider the internet as one of the dynamic variables related to it. I also understand that even though I have managed to amass a completely insignificant amount of wealth compared to Mark Cuban, and even though I do not have any experience operating multi-hundred million dollar businesses directly related to this space, or creating self-directed wealth in general, and even though nobody even knows, or cares who I am, I am undeterred in my assertion that I (State your name) know more about net neutrality, business, and wealth creation than Mark Cuban. This is why he is wrong and I am right. I know more than Mark Cuban."

You either post that, or you admit that you're wrong by default. So let's hear it.

I'm not even sure if I know who mark Cuban is. He owns a basketball team, right? Why do I care what he thinks on the matter? He hasn't repeatedly posted his ingnorance here on this fourm, so his views aren't part of this conversation.
 
I'm not even sure if I know who mark Cuban is. He owns a basketball team, right? Why do I care what he thinks on the matter? He hasn't repeatedly posted his ingnorance here on this fourm, so his views aren't part of this conversation.
Mark Cuban made his money by starting and selling broadcast.com
 
I'm not saying anything to any of you anymore until I see you quote EXACTLY the following.

Then you're not going to answer this because I refuse to buy into this cult-of-personality, making money on something is the prime yardstick for genius and the world is black or white nonsense, but:

So I take it you agree with Mark Cuban that Obamacare, despite its deeply flawed rollout is a net positive for startup businesses? He's definitely had startup experience, so clearly it must be so. Right?

Please use your own words, as I do not think it's appropriate to put words into anyone else's mouth. The world is far too nuanced for that.

B
 
Mark Cuban made his money by starting and selling broadcast.com

From Wikipedia: "Cuban is an admirer of author and philosopher Ayn Rand..."
Nuff said. He's an objectivist, so he is clearly unfamiliar with how the real world works. They believe in the "virtue of selfishness"... So, yeah, I'm probably smarter than Mark Cuban.
 
The other company just can't compete because of lack of speed...5 MBit is what they had. They were just over the old rules of 4 MBit

--

The DSL thing was way in the past...1990's when I heard everyone trying to explain why it was only barely faster than dial up. I kept hearing there were legal fights but I have no reference.

DSL is it's own choke point. Since it runs off of the copper phone lines there is no physical way to speed it up past a certain point. In fact that farther away you get from the switch the slower it becomes.

The fact that your ISP was not able to get above 4 Mbps means you have a crap ISP.

DSL has come a long, long way since the early 90's. It is true that it does depend a lot on how close you are to the CO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.992.5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-high-bit-rate_digital_subscriber_line_2
 
I'm not even sure if I know who mark Cuban is. He owns a basketball team, right? Why do I care what he thinks on the matter? He hasn't repeatedly posted his ingnorance here on this fourm, so his views aren't part of this conversation.

Try more reading the quote, and less spewing petulant nonsense. Maybe then you'll understand why.

And you didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.

Then you're not going to answer this because I refuse to buy into this cult-of-personality, making money on something is the prime yardstick for genius and the world is black or white nonsense, but:

So I take it you agree with Mark Cuban that Obamacare, despite its deeply flawed rollout is a net positive for startup businesses? He's definitely had startup experience, so clearly it must be so. Right?

Please use your own words, as I do not think it's appropriate to put words into anyone else's mouth. The world is far too nuanced for that.

B

1. What does Obamacare have to do with ANYTHING, Literally ANYTHING with Net Neutrality?? And why would you assume ANYTHING regarding my view on the subject???? Mark was cited as a networking expert, in regards to a networking topic. Epic. Facepalm. ��

2. The way you make money in a free market is to provide more value than you consume. Mark has created value that was AT LEAST $3 Billion in excess of the cost of providing that that value. That's what profit is. So yeah, if you're talking about selling value to a customer, the more money you make, the more valuable, rare, and/or difficult your service is to provide. Apple makes over 40% gross margins on their phones because they're the only ones who know how to make them well. A company like P&G for example might make 5% on their soap. because entry into the soap business is a hell of a lot easier. Therefore, lower margins. Soap makes you smell less. iPhones have created IMMEASURABLE benefit to the world in just a few short years. Apple made more money. Apple provided more value. So using his repeated ability to create wealth that is in excess of his level of consumption to do so is entirely valid. If you disagree you're wrong. Simple.

3. You didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.


From Wikipedia: "Cuban is an admirer of author and philosopher Ayn Rand..."
Nuff said. He's an objectivist, so he is clearly unfamiliar with how the real world works. They believe in the "virtue of selfishness"... So, yeah, I'm probably smarter than Mark Cuban.

1. Yeah the Objectivist that supported the idea of Obamacare. You're clearly worth listening to.

2. It's interesting how you think saying "Ayn Rand" is an argument. Then you say you're smarter than a billionaire genius. Like an idiot. So much win out of you.

3. You clearly know nothing about Objectivism, or what you're talking about in general for that matter.

4. You didn't state the quote but you still asserted that you know more about an industry than a guy who made billions in it does. You're clearly not objective, and therefore, can't be reasoned with. You're done.



------


God, you'd think you people would have more respect for yourselves and your minds by being honest with yourselves and just learning something instead of going around claiming to know more about everything that a multi-billionaire networking business man has clearly done better than you. Inescapable fail...
 
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Try more reading the quote, and less spewing petulant nonsense. Maybe then you'll understand why.

And you didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.



1. What does Obamacare have to do with ANYTHING, Literally ANYTHING with Net Neutrality?? And why would you assume ANYTHING regarding my view on the subject???? Mark was cited as a networking expert, in regards to a networking topic. Epic. Facepalm. #

2. The way you make money in a free market is to provide more value than you consume. Mark has created value that was AT LEAST $3 Billion in excess of the cost of providing that that value. That's what profit is. So yeah, if you're talking about selling value to a customer, the more money you make, the more valuable, rare, and/or difficult your service is to provide. Apple makes over 40% gross margins on their phones because they're the only ones who know how to make them well. A company like P&G for example might make 5% on their soap. because entry into the soap business is a hell of a lot easier. Therefore, lower margins. Soap makes you smell less. iPhones have created IMMEASURABLE benefit to the world in just a few short years. Apple made more money. Apple provided more value. So using his repeated ability to create wealth that is in excess of his level of consumption to do so is entirely valid. If you disagree you're wrong. Simple.

3. You didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.




1. Yeah the Objectivist that supported the idea of Obamacare. You're clearly worth listening to.

2. It's interesting how you think saying "Ayn Rand" is an argument. Then you say you're smarter than a billionaire genius. Like an idiot. So much win out of you.

3. You clearly know nothing about Objectivism, or what you're talking about in general for that matter.

4. You didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.



------


God, you'd think you people would have more respect for yourselves and your minds by being honest with yourselves and just learning something instead of going around claiming to know more about everything that a multi-billionaire networking business man has clearly done better than you. Inescapable fail...

Your hero worship of this guy is kinda sad. You seem to think that because someone has money they are better than those that don't. You are what's wrong with this country. You can't even follow through on your promise to "not saying anything to anyone until they".. Blah blah blah... The simple fact is you have proven that YOU don't understand the issue. Nobody cares what that Cuban guy thinks. He's just another business man trying to make as much money as he can, no matter the cost to others.
 
<snip> the networking multi-billionaire, </snip>

I would trust this man to be very good at looking out for his own best interest. Mine, the country's, not so much.
I would expect him to be more persuasive. Maybe you have to share the same perspective.
 
Clearly your word means little, as you replied despite giving us this ultimatum.

I'm not saying anything to any of you anymore until I see you quote EXACTLY the following.

I will not submit to your ultimatum nor will I jump through hoops or rub my head and pat my tummy at the same time in order to have a conversation.

1. What does Obamacare have to do with ANYTHING, Literally ANYTHING with Net Neutrality?? And why would you assume ANYTHING regarding my view on the subject???? Mark was cited as a networking expert, in regards to a networking topic. Epic. Facepalm.

I did not give you any ultimatum or try to put words in your mouth.

It's a simple parallel. If Mr. Cuban is an expert on network businesses and thus his opinion on Net Neutrality must be taken as gospel, then all of his opinions on other topics in the area of business must also be similarly unimpeachable. Right?

Or is he just like anyone else, fallible, even on topics which are close to his past business and life experience?

2. The way you make money in a free market is to provide more value than you consume.

In the real world, where markets aren't free, making billions usually means a healthy dose of being in the right place at the right time and knowing the right people. It also helps to be able to convince taxpayers to foot part of your bill as is extremely common for sports team owners in the form of stadium funding and tax subsidies.

An area which he seems perfectly content with Obamacare as well, taking government subsidies for giving startup workers healthcare in a way that doesn't distract the startup from its primary objectives.

3. You didn't state the quote or even state that you thought you know more than a guy that made billions in the industry that is relevant to the discussion. Since you are unable to say that you are more knowledgeable than the networking multi-billionaire, but still assert that you're right and he isn't, any further conversation with you is futile. You're done.

:rolleyes: I've given you my response to "state the quote or else" twice now. Not going to do it.

I never said he's 100% wrong, nor did I say he's 100% right, because that's just not how the real world works. Like with most things, there's probably a kernel of truth in his complaints/criticisms. But even if he's mostly "right" that doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong thing to do.

I do know, that I agree with moderately. Mark Cuban has an excellent track record of looking out for himself, and I can guarantee that whatever he says is most likely in his own personal financial self-interest. Whether those interests line up with mine or "the greater good" of society is far less clear.

I can certainly see where the mega corporations that control both media distribution and creation would have preferred the status quo, as it limits competition and allows them to preferentially push their products down the consumer's throat as well as making multi-billion dollar deals between each other than don't add any value to the consumer at all.

Whether it's Cuban, or Buffett or Trump. Just because they've made lots of money it doesn't make them any less human and fallible than the rest of us.

B
 
I'm not saying anything to any of you anymore until I see you quote EXACTLY the following.

Quote:
"I know more about Net Neutrality than Mark Cuban. Not only does he not know what he's talking about, but his decades of business experience in spaces related to this topic PALE in comparison to the level of knowledge that I possess on the issue. I understand the fact that Mark Cuban has amassed BILLIONS of dollars by creating wealth through businesses that had to, in part, consider the internet as one of the dynamic variables related to it. I also understand that even though I have managed to amass a completely insignificant amount of wealth compared to Mark Cuban, and even though I do not have any experience operating multi-hundred million dollar businesses directly related to this space, or creating self-directed wealth in general, and even though nobody even knows, or cares who I am, I am undeterred in my assertion that I (State your name) know more about net neutrality, business, and wealth creation than Mark Cuban. This is why he is wrong and I am right. I know more than Mark Cuban."

You either post that, or you admit that you're wrong by default. So let's hear it.

**** Mark Cuban.
 
Like ObamaCare that wrecked most of American's health care to supplement losers,

Sometimes I like to mull things over a little- pardon the late response. The particular comment above is interesting, because it is an example where extreme Libertarianism leads.

For the record, yes, I want to provide health care to losers. Everybody is a loser at some point in their life, some sooner than others. I continue to be surprised that young, healthy Libertarians don't realize that they, too, will be losers some day. The irony is that the U.S. could provide universal health care for far less than it is spending now, as many other countries with Liberal health care systems have demonstrated.

this ObamaNet can turn into a crazy censorship fiasco where executive orders are given to ISP to block or throttle specific websites during elections or when a scandal breaks out.

Because Verizon would never do that, would it?

My take is technology will march beyond it and the whole concept of IP addresses, name servers and direct broadband is replaced by a much more decentralized paradigm. Information wants to be free.

:rolleyes:
 
Not sure where you get your info, but you might want to at least read the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point before you show your lack of knowledge on the issue.

From you wiki link: critics believe "it's a thinly veiled ideological attack on industries the Obama administration doesn't like, such as gun sellers and coal producers."

Critics of the Obama administration believe a lot of things that aren't true.
 
The irony is that the U.S. could provide universal health care for far less than it is spending now, as many other countries with Liberal health care systems have demonstrated.

You should talk to people that are actually in these other countries, I was responsible for a division in England and the truth is that no one goes to their public health system unless they have absolutely no other choice. In order to hire people we had to pay for private health insurance, plus our taxes for the public system. Otherwise, the people we wanted to hire (machinists, clerks, inventory staff, etc) would not come to work for us for any reasonable amount of money.

To get the truth you need to look deeper than the front page major media outlets. They have an agenda and I agree their propaganda sounds real enticing, but it is simply, in most cases, a lie to support a specific political philosophy (which will in the end be good for only a few at the top).
 
You should talk to people that are actually in these other countries, I was responsible for a division in England and the truth is that no one goes to their public health system unless they have absolutely no other choice. In order to hire people we had to pay for private health insurance, plus our taxes for the public system. Otherwise, the people we wanted to hire (machinists, clerks, inventory staff, etc) would not come to work for us for any reasonable amount of money.

To get the truth you need to look deeper than the front page major media outlets. They have an agenda and I agree their propaganda sounds real enticing, but it is simply, in most cases, a lie to support a specific political philosophy (which will in the end be good for only a few at the top).

Very few people in this country know this and like you said will never believe it unless they experience it first hand.
 
You should talk to people that are actually in these other countries, I was responsible for a division in England and the truth is that no one goes to their public health system unless they have absolutely no other choice. In order to hire people we had to pay for private health insurance, plus our taxes for the public system.

This is absolutely false. The overwhelming majority do not make use of private insurance and an overwhelming majority are satisfied with NHS services, albeit a shrinking majority since 2010.

You were either misinformed or you are lying.

EDIT: I realise now that you are referring to NHS suppliers and not NHS users, is this right? Are you saying that most employees of the NHS are dissatisfied with their employer?
 
From you wiki link: critics believe "it's a thinly veiled ideological attack on industries the Obama administration doesn't like, such as gun sellers and coal producers."

Critics of the Obama administration believe a lot of things that aren't true.

Then maybe you can explain why businesses with no problems, no bad history, no financial problems, money in the bank, no unpaid loans, that were operating an entirely legal business had their bank account closed with no explanation. I know some of these people and I know it happened.

I also know that the IRS refused to let organizations with different political views legally register under certain provisions of the law.

And if you keep looking you will find this pattern over and over again. But go ahead, it is really easier to look the other way.

When it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and looks like a duct, most people would say it is a duck. Guess your not one of those.

And for the record I am a critic of any administration that is working against the people. That includes Bush and his destruction of privacy among other things.
 
This is absolutely false. The overwhelming majority do not make use of private insurance and an overwhelming majority are satisfied with NHS services, albeit a shrinking majority since 2010.

You were either misinformed or you are lying.

EDIT: I realise now that you are referring to NHS suppliers and not NHS users, is this right? Are you saying that most employees of the NHS are dissatisfied with their employer?

All I know is when we made offers, they were turned down and the reason given was no private healthcare. When we started offering private healthcare coverage, people started accepting our offers.

And I said nothing of the majority. I said the middle class people that we tried to hire, which meant, for us in our region (48 km south of central London) people who had the opportunity and expected to take jobs with private healthcare coverage.

We tried to find out what percentage of people had private health coverage and at the time it was, surprisingly, not tracked. While that was a few years ago I cannot imagine it has changed for the better.
 
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