Feeling kind of bad about my diet.

[marbles]

No need to apologize to me, I don't care. But it's not terribly good reasoning.

Who told you this?

Just being polite .
Also , I thought it was common knowledge but several reports have confirmed this .
Even some medicines now come with instruction not to drink milk as it will interfere with absorption ( I could go off & find liks etc but I'm a little busy today ....I will later if you would like )

Absolutely. However (and I'm speaking here without being informed on the matter, so feel free to correct me), I doubt that goat's milk can replace the maternal antibodies provided to babies via mother's milk. Those are an important source of passive immunity until the baby's immune system becomes more robust.

Your right , mothers milk cannot be replaced as a source of essential nutrients , enzymes etc and goats milk is not that much better than cows milk .

Well, I feel like I gotta jump to Subway's defense here. I worked at one in college and the food was pretty darn fresh and good. I was surprised, believe me. It's definitely not the same as McDonald's, not even close. Whole wheat bread, fresh vegetables and decent meat. You won't find that at McDonald's. I don't know what it is McD's sells, but they shouldn't be allowed to call it food.

Well yes the food is fresh or it ' appears to be ' would be a more accurate description , it looks the part , healthy an all that, that's what they want you to think so you buy it , these kind of outlets are masters of selling and making money .

BUT .... it is the way the food is produced that makes it not all that good ....check the ingredient list on the meat packets ...I'm fairly certain you will see such things as nitrates , sulphates , colourants , preservatives etc etc and that is just what they do to the meat AFTER the animal has been to slaughter , they pump some interesting chemicals into animals during there live time to make them grow quick etc etc all this kind of stuff is not really fit for consumption imho.
The veg will have probably been grown in a massive warehouse somewhere , sprayed with a variety of pesticides and growth enhancers .
It wouldn't surprise me if the salad had never even seen soil!!.
McDonalds are part of the same crew ....just a different marketing angle behind it , that's all ...open your eyes to what you ACTUALLY put into your body .

It totally blew my head off when I really started getting interested in food when I was 16/ 17 and began to find out all sorts of interesting facts about the foods industry , I'm 36 now and well , I've learned a fair bit and eat organic home cooked food now , I even grow my own veg ....I mean me ,come on !! (if you knew me you would understand )

Haha, perhaps it was true what my co-worker was saying to me today about being rare, a straight man working at Subway.

Edit: By the way, today was my first successful day! I know that's not a big accomplishment, but it feels kind of good. (I feel kind of empty, though...) I made myself an over-medium egg and some oatmeal for breakfast, had a small turkey sandwich for lunch, a veggie sub with no dressing or parmesan cheese for dinner, and a banana for a snack. Not the best, but it was a good step No cookies, and all I drank was peppermint tea and lots of water.

.

It will take approximately 2 maybe 3 months of following a healthy diet before your palette truly becomes adjusted to the tastes of a diet change and prolly the same amount of time before your body adjusts to the differences in the quality of food , about 6 months before you really get your head round it and change your buying habits and shop with a healthy frame of mind ( if your anything like me )
So get used to going the toilet a lot , not just for a wee either and don't give up , it will get harder at times , you will feels sluggish and prolly get headaches etc as your body begins to detoxify but after all that shizz is over ....yee haaa !!!!!

Stick at it ! oh and read the label ( better if the food doesn't have a label and you can SEE what ingredients are in it)

Respect Ziggy




~marbles

 

[themadchemist]

Just being polite .
Also , I thought it was common knowledge but several reports have confirmed this .
Even some medicines now come with instruction not to drink milk as it will interfere with absorption ( I could go off & find liks etc but I'm a little busy today ....I will later if you would like )

Medicine absorption is a tricky business and I could believe that, but I find the suggestion that milk interferes with vitamin absorption to be doubtful. I would love to see a citation. I just did a quick Google Scholar search and one thing I found was that the calcium in milk can reduce absorption of certain drugs, but that would be a problem for anything containing calcium--and it would be no reason *not* to consume calcium in general. If you've got any citations on milk interfering with absorption of essential nutrients, I would be curious to see them. You would think those mechanisms would be similar in babies as in adults, and in human milk as in cow/goat milk (I'm sure most of the transporters and enzymatic needs are largely conserved between species so closely related) so that it would be a problem for babies as much as adults. Yet we highly recommend breast milk, and so I am skeptical about this absorption thing until otherwise informed.

Your right , mothers milk cannot be replaced as a source of essential nutrients , enzymes etc and goats milk is not that much better than cows milk .

This doesn't really apply to adults, though. The big thing with breast milk is the provision of maternal antibodies. That can't be replicated. But most everything else probably could be replicated. That said, if a baby can't get breast milk, he/she would probably be better off with formula, which has the concentrations of various odds and ends optimized for the baby's nutritional needs in a way that cow/goat milk does not. For adults, I don't see a real problem with cow/goat milk.

 

[marbles]

^ have a read of this: http://www.notmilk.com/kradjian.html

I just did a quick google for now , beware though it is a long read

Then , when I get home I will get some information from one of my old course books & see if I can scan them in for you to read .
I have some online articles also ,somewhere .
I will find the links and post those too .

The long read in the link above should give me enough time to find said info .

regards

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

Milk is delicious. I will continue to drink it.

Half-baked, bias websites are not going to get me to switch away from drinking it.

 

[marbles]

^ I don't want to go down as some anti milk freakoid I DRINK IT !( goats)& your right , it is delicious .

But some of the information available does make me think !
here are a few more links I found for you
http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/calcium.php
http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-88074.html
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0921448803002724
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/136851/compare_the_health_benefits_of_goat.html

Most milk is contaminated by pesticides
http://questionthemark.org/2006/08/13...

Causes zits and acne
http://www.notmilk.com/z.html

Genetically-engineered bovine growth hormone in cows ...
http://www.preventcancer.com/consumer...

Milk increases your risk of bone fractures
http://questionthemark.org/2006/08/13...

1.4 billion lbs of waist per day from American cows causing global warming...** well they do have big bums and fart a lot
http://www.notmilk.com/awhattax.html

Cow's Milk Increases Childhood Diabetes
http://www.rense.com/general2/cdia.htm

Homogenization directly linked to heart disease
http://www.rense.com/health/cream.htm

The USDA lets milk contain 45 million white blood cells per ounce
http://notmilk.com/kradjian.html

Sued for claiming milk can help loss weight
http://www.amonline.com/article/artic...

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

I generally don't trust websites whose very title indicates it's predisposed to bashing a certain product or good. I can find an equally large, and larger, number of studies refuting those claims and extolling the health benefits of drinking milk.

Sure, it contains fat, and it may not help you lose weight. But so what? It contains a good amount of protein, tastes good, and is better for you than drinking soda instead. Many brands of milk now advertise that their cows are not treated with growth hormone.

 

[marbles]

^ I don't trust many websites (if any) but most give me food for thought , that is all I am trying to do here, give .
Like I said , I drink goats milk .

 

[Gray-Wolf]

The reason I mentioned Goats milk, it is a proven fact, the human body can tolerate goats milk a lot better than cows milk. I can't tolerate cows milk any more, even with the Lactose-free or lactose-reduced milk. What little I do use, and that for cereal, is Rice Milk.

 

[themadchemist]

Here are responses to some of the many articles you provided (which, from my sampling, seem to lack in quality what they offer in quantity)...

Most milk is contaminated by pesticides
http://questionthemark.org/2006/08/13...

Site is down.

Genetically-engineered bovine growth hormone in cows ...
http://www.preventcancer.com/consumer...

According to the FDA, rBGH is not biologically active in humans. I am not well-read on this topic, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the FDA's claims or anyone else's.

Causes zits and acne
http://www.notmilk.com/z.html

This was an extraordinarily deceptive web page. It lays down a lot of quotes from scientific papers and draws conclusions by connecting dots that weren't connected through experimentation.

It's controversial at best.

Milk increases your risk of bone fractures
http://questionthemark.org/2006/08/13...

Site is temporarily offline. However, one study (Goulding et al, 2004[J. American Dietetic Association]) suggests that milk avoidance increases prepubertal fracture risk. I found several studies that show that low milk intake does not increase the risk for adult fractures and high intake does not protect against. Other studies suggest the opposite. This is a far cry from the claim you make above.

1.4 billion lbs of waist per day from American cows causing global warming...** well they do have big bums and fart a lot
http://www.notmilk.com/awhattax.html

Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Cow's Milk Increases Childhood Diabetes
http://www.rense.com/general2/cdia.htm

Interesting. I would say that a case-control study is not sufficient evidence, but there seem to be a few other lines of data on this. I would say this is all correlative at best, and still not firm enough data with which to do anything. Also, keep in mind that yoau are misrepresenting the studies. They are considering whether cow's milk increases the risk of type I DM in kids whose siblings have the disease. Without some other inciting event, it's unlikely the milk could do anything. And there's a very high chance that this milk association is just popping up because of a confounding variable.

Homogenization directly linked to heart disease
http://www.rense.com/health/cream.htm

This references some really old studies that claimed that xanthine oxidase from cows played a role in heart disease. Apparently, it is at best controversial. Here's a critique in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (the free abstract will lay out the basic points). One idea is that the metabolic product of xanthine oxidase, uric acid (which causes gout), has a hand in heart disease. (Ellestad, 2007) However, the large Framingham cohort study shows no significant association between uric acid levels and coronary heart disease or death from it. (Culleton et al, 1999) Another argument is that free radicals generated by xanthine oxidase activity can be damaging to cardiac myocytes, and that xanthine oxidase inhibition can therefore rescue cells from reactive oxygen species damage. (Baldus et al, 2006; Duncan et al, 2005) While this may be true, it does not show that xanthine oxidase is the main source of free radicals in this kind of toxicity or that this is the best way to treat heart disease. It seems to me that xanthine oxidase activity is probably not as important as the clogging of arteries and the deprivation of oxygen from heart tissue. And anyway, none of this matters to our argument if insufficient amounts of xanthine oxidase are absorbed from milk.

The USDA lets milk contain 45 million white blood cells per ounce
http://notmilk.com/kradjian.html

OK, as a vegetarian, I have to say this is really gross, and I wish I had never heard this. That said, let me put this in perspective for those of you out there who are not offended on the basis of religious proscription:

The USDA limit is 750,000 somatic cells/mL, though last year's average count was 276,000. (USDA The normal number of white blood cells/mL of human blood is between 4.5 and 10 million. This is a significant dilution.

And just to get a handle on what kind of cell mass we're talking about in general--the normal number of red blood cells/mL of human blood is 4.7 to 6.1 billion. A few hundred thousand cells is vanishingly small.

Interestingly, this study from the USDA suggests that while cow somatic cell counts are well within limits, it's the goat counts that tend to exceed limits.

 

[montanachad]

Green. Go local, go organic!

Seriously, try getting food at your local farms market, food coops, or health food stores.

 

[marbles]

Here are responses to some of the many articles you provided (which, from my sampling, seem to lack in quality what they offer in quantity)...



Site is down.



According to the FDA, rBGH is not biologically active in humans. I am not well-read on this topic, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the FDA's claims or anyone else's.



This was an extraordinarily deceptive web page. It lays down a lot of quotes from scientific papers and draws conclusions by connecting dots that weren't connected through experimentation.

It's controversial at best.



Site is temporarily offline. However, one study (Goulding et al, 2004[J. American Dietetic Association]) suggests that milk avoidance increases prepubertal fracture risk. I found several studies that show that low milk intake does not increase the risk for adult fractures and high intake does not protect against. Other studies suggest the opposite. This is a far cry from the claim you make above.



Irrelevant to the matter at hand.



Interesting. I would say that a case-control study is not sufficient evidence, but there seem to be a few other lines of data on this. I would say this is all correlative at best, and still not firm enough data with which to do anything. Also, keep in mind that yoau are misrepresenting the studies. They are considering whether cow's milk increases the risk of type I DM in kids whose siblings have the disease. Without some other inciting event, it's unlikely the milk could do anything. And there's a very high chance that this milk association is just popping up because of a confounding variable.


This references some really old studies that claimed that xanthine oxidase from cows played a role in heart disease. Apparently, it is at best controversial. Here's a critique in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (the free abstract will lay out the basic points). One idea is that the metabolic product of xanthine oxidase, uric acid (which causes gout), has a hand in heart disease. (Ellestad, 2007) However, the large Framingham cohort study shows no significant association between uric acid levels and coronary heart disease or death from it. (Culleton et al, 1999) Another argument is that free radicals generated by xanthine oxidase activity can be damaging to cardiac myocytes, and that xanthine oxidase inhibition can therefore rescue cells from reactive oxygen species damage. (Baldus et al, 2006; Duncan et al, 2005) While this may be true, it does not show that xanthine oxidase is the main source of free radicals in this kind of toxicity or that this is the best way to treat heart disease. It seems to me that xanthine oxidase activity is probably not as important as the clogging of arteries and the deprivation of oxygen from heart tissue. And anyway, none of this matters to our argument if insufficient amounts of xanthine oxidase are absorbed from milk.



OK, as a vegetarian, I have to say this is really gross, and I wish I had never heard this. That said, let me put this in perspective for those of you out there who are not offended on the basis of religious proscription:

The USDA limit is 750,000 somatic cells/mL, though last year's average count was 276,000. (USDA The normal number of white blood cells/mL of human blood is between 4.5 and 10 million. This is a significant dilution.

And just to get a handle on what kind of cell mass we're talking about in general--the normal number of red blood cells/mL of human blood is 4.7 to 6.1 billion. A few hundred thousand cells is vanishingly small.

Interestingly, this study from the USDA suggests that while cow somatic cell counts are well within limits, it's the goat counts that tend to exceed limits.

Hi , I know that some of these are not the best for concrete 'evidence' but they where only quick googles , thats all.... I did say, but they do provide food for thought & for you to say that I am " misrepresenting" is not really a fair conclusion on your part , like I said I'm only trying to give to this conversation what little knowledge I posses , no big deal ...

I am at home now and have realized that my papers are with a friend ...that said I will provide them at my earliest convenience for you.
It doesn't bother me too much that the cell count is slightly higher (apparently0 in goats that that of cow milk , I'm not vegetarian although I tend not to eat very much meat .

The bottom line here is that Ziggy ( the OP ) is going about trying to change his diet for the better , lets not cloud this thread for him discussing such trivialities( I've tried to back out of this thread once before)

Ziggy eat fresh & local produce if you can , drink the clear stuff ( no , not vodka) and enjoy .

Oh & I just kinda put the "global warming from cows" because I found it slightly humourus , forgive me , I forgot that sometimes humour isn't allowed on the net

 

[0098386]

I've been slowly gaining weight for the last few months.

My current diet is peanut butter on toast for breakfast. Egg mayonnaise sandwhich or bacon butty for dinner. Tea is always different but Fridays is chinese (stir fry chicken or something), pasta bolognese with garlic bread on Sat and a roast dinner for Sunday. Scatter biscuits between meals and supper and junk.

Been drinking a lot of milk (cow, semi skimmed), mineral water and fruit juices (cranberry, tropical, pure orange). Waters just great for everything, keeps me alert better than caffeine, much more sustained too.

It's a very slow process but it's a huge improvement from my old diet. I've only managed to gain between 4-6 pounds though as I'm battling my fast metabolism.

 

[themadchemist]

Hi , I know that some of these are not the best for concrete 'evidence' but they where only quick googles , thats all.... I did say, but they do provide food for thought

Bad information does not make good food for thought. Just as you are quite passionate about food for consumption, I am quite passionate about food for thought. And one thing is true for both: You are what you eat.

It's not sufficient to excuse unsupported claims with the proviso that they "make you think."

& for you to say that I am " misrepresenting" is not really a fair conclusion on your part , like I said I'm only trying to give to this conversation what little knowledge I posses , no big deal ...

I'm really sorry if my statement came off as too harsh...I spent a long time replying to your post and I was getting antsy by the end of it. I'm sure you didn't purposefully misrepresent the study, but as studies get talked about, the conclusions sometimes get extended far beyond their limited applicability. There is a term in medicine called "generalizability," which is the extent to which a study can be applied to the population at large. This study had a very narrow focus: The siblings of those with Type I DM, and it is important that we recognize that it is applicable only to that group.

I am at home now and have realized that my papers are with a friend ...that said I will provide them at my earliest convenience for you.

That would be great, particularly if they are hypothesis-driven studies published in peer-review journals.

It doesn't bother me too much that the cell count is slightly higher (apparently0 in goats that that of cow milk , I'm not vegetarian although I tend not to eat very much meat .

Then why'd you post it and ruin my evening?

The bottom line here is that Ziggy ( the OP ) is going about trying to change his diet for the better , lets not cloud this thread for him discussing such trivialities( I've tried to back out of this thread once before)

I agree we're straying a little bit and I'll stop here. This could be the good topic of a separate thread, if anyone feels like starting it. That said, these are not trivialities at all. Unfortunately, you made a number of contentions that you tried to defend with a whole host of links that provide rhetoric instead of evidence. I know that when one has a certain viewpoint, it's easy to lose objectivity (it happens to me on any number of issues), but it's important to keep that in check. The information you presented was inaccurate and if we're going to have a productive discussion, it was important that we separate fact from fiction (or, at least, evidence from rhetoric).

Oh & I just kinda put the "global warming from cows" because I found it slightly humourus , forgive me , I forgot that sometimes humour isn't allowed on the net

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying--there were a lot of links there and I was getting tired of clicking through all of them.

 

[marbles]

Bad information does not make good food for thought. Just as you are quite passionate about food for consumption, I am quite passionate about food for thought. And one thing is true for both: You are what you eat.
It's not sufficient to excuse unsupported claims with the proviso that they "make you think."

Quite right , I apologize , I suppose I was merely trying to keep the conversation going, albeit not very well .In future I will serve hand crafted organic fair instead of processed cheese and burger buns

I'm really sorry if my statement came off as too harsh...I spent a long time replying to your post and I was getting antsy by the end of it. I'm sure you didn't purposefully misrepresent the study, but as studies get talked about, the conclusions sometimes get extended far beyond their limited applicability. There is a term in medicine called "generalizability," which is the extent to which a study can be applied to the population at large. This study had a very narrow focus: The siblings of those with Type I DM, and it is important that we recognize that it is applicable only to that group.

I agree and am sorry for the angst.

That would be great, particularly if they are hypothesis-driven studies published in peer-review journals.

No problem at all , I will share what I have and my knowledge freely with anyone interested

Then why'd you post it and ruin my evening?

I was just having some fun and thought I would attempt to inject a little humour into the proceedings, your welcome to my place if you fancy some nice room temperature home brewed organic English beer or chilled organic Elderflower wine ,late evening aromatherapy & star gazing are optional of course .
Sincere apologies , I owe you one good evening , being in the entertainment business I believe I could provide that if your ever this side of the water

I agree we're straying a little bit and I'll stop here. This could be the good topic of a separate thread, if anyone feels like starting it. That said, these are not trivialities at all. Unfortunately, you made a number of contentions that you tried to defend with a whole host of links that provide rhetoric instead of evidence. I know that when one has a certain viewpoint, it's easy to lose objectivity (it happens to me on any number of issues), but it's important to keep that in check. The information you presented was inaccurate and if we're going to have a productive discussion, it was important that we separate fact from fiction (or, at least, evidence from rhetoric).

Again my apologies , I feel that at least some of the links provided gave at least a provision to the topic in hand ( although googled and skim read), I believe the links I provided a reasonable insight into the interesting topic of milk consumption and it's affects on the body but will attempt to keep my opinions "in check" and supply 'evidence' in correct form at the correct time and steer clear of 'quick googles' to get my point across( I wondered at the time if I was doing the right thing , I suppose a lesson learned is to always listen to ones 'gut instinct')
As soon as I retrieve the said paperwork I will scan & publish for your perusal in a new thread ( I'll leave a message here when I do ).

I have learned a lot today , thank you

best regards
marbles

Edit >>> why the quotes gone all funny then ?? `>>update >...missing forward slash in the code ...ho hum carry on

 

[Iscariot]

OK, as a vegetarian, I have to say this is really gross, and I wish I had never heard this.

Yeah, that's a sentiment I'm going to echo.

Again my apologies , I feel that at least some of the links provided gave at least a provision to the topic in hand ( although googled and skim read), I believe the links I provided a reasonable insight into the interesting topic of milk consumption and it's affects on the body but will attempt to keep my opinions "in check" and supply 'evidence' in correct form at the correct time and steer clear of 'quick googles' to get my point across( I wondered at the time if I was doing the right thing , I suppose a lesson learned is to always listen to ones 'gut instinct')
As soon as I retrieve the said paperwork I will scan & publish for your perusal in a new thread ( I'll leave a message here when I do ).

A good resource for information is the always accessible Pubmed. There is an awful lot of rearch involving milk going on.

 

[themadchemist]

I was just having some fun and thought I would attempt to inject a little humour into the proceedings, your welcome to my place if you fancy some nice room temperature home brewed organic English beer or chilled organic Elderflower wine ,late evening aromatherapy & star gazing are optional of course .
Sincere apologies , I owe you one good evening , being in the entertainment business I believe I could provide that if your ever this side of the water

Don't be surprised if I take you up on this rather appealing offer the next time I hop the pond.

Again my apologies , I feel that at least some of the links provided gave at least a provision to the topic in hand ( although googled and skim read), I believe the links I provided a reasonable insight into the interesting topic of milk consumption and it's affects on the body but will attempt to keep my opinions "in check" and supply 'evidence' in correct form at the correct time and steer clear of 'quick googles' to get my point across( I wondered at the time if I was doing the right thing , I suppose a lesson learned is to always listen to ones 'gut instinct')

No need to apologize, I guess I'm just a stickler. In general, I'd take Iscariot's very good advice to refer to PubMed (which is more easily searchable, I think, via Google Scholar). If you have a university subscription, you'll be able to get the full text, but even the abstracts can often be enlightening. Plus, some journals have a certain number of papers uploaded to PubMed free of charge.

As soon as I retrieve the said paperwork I will scan & publish for your perusal in a new thread ( I'll leave a message here when I do ).

That would be really cool. That said, scanning all of it sounds like it will be a big hassle for you! If they are published stuff, even just the citations will be enough, and I'm sure we can dig them up ourselves (and get full text, for those of w/university subscriptions).

I have learned a lot today , thank you

Looking forward to learning a lot in that new thread.