Feeling very discouraged with Mavericks - so many issues

[Felasco]

...and that's my own frustration with these sort of threads, the assumption that, if i'm having an issue with the OS, everyone else is too. that it's not 'mavericks is not working well for me', but that 'mavericks sucks' etc etc..

The problem is not with these sorts of threads, but with Apple refusing to teach it's users how to safely test a new OS in a separate partition or drive.

All it would take is a link in the installer such as "Learn How To Safely Install This Software", which could link to something like this:

http://apple-mac-blog.com/osx/1-step-1--how-to-install-osx-mavericks-safely.html

The problem is that Apple insists on pushing the fantasy that it's safe for everybody to install a new version of OSX on top of an old version. The truth is, it might be safe, or maybe it's not. In other words, you can't count on it.

All these sorts of threads are Apple's fault, one for not finishing software before it's released, and two for not teaching it's users how to safely test a new OS.

This doesn't mean Apple is evil, it means Apple is stupid, for pointlessly putting big dents in their world class brand.

 

[fisherking]

The problem is not with these sorts of threads, but with Apple refusing to teach it's users how to safely test a new OS in a separate partition or drive.

All it would take is a link in the installer such as "Learn How To Safely Install This Software", which could link to something like this:

http://apple-mac-blog.com/osx/1-step-1--how-to-install-osx-mavericks-safely.html

The problem is that Apple insists on pushing the fantasy that it's safe for everybody to install a new version of OSX on top of an old version. The truth is, it might be safe, or maybe it's not. In other words, you can't count on it.

All these sorts of threads are Apple's fault, one for not finishing software before it's released, and two for not teaching it's users how to safely test a new OS.

This doesn't mean Apple is evil, it means Apple is stupid, for pointlessly putting big dents in their world class brand.

LOL...i JUST responded to your OTHER response on ANOTHER thread. but the idea that you're promoting...that we shouldn't USE our computers, but spend time TESTING new versions of the OS...makes no sense.

i USE OS X to get to my WORK, the APPS i use; the web, email. etc. why should the end user spend their time TESTING a new OS? working their way around partitions, running from an external drive?

makes no sense...

if YOU want to do that, more power to you. but i believe that most mac users...in fact, most COMPUTER users...use their computers to work, play, surf...whatever.
and the OS is just a path to that...

 

[bobdamnit]

I don't get it. Why start a whole new thread about how "awful" Mavericks is?

If you are happy with Mountain Lion, just use that. If you are happy with Snow Leopard, use that if your hardware supports it. If you are OK with buying a Mac to use Windows XP, then use that. If Windows 7 on your Mac is acceptable, then why would you even question using it? Why subjugate yourself to something that doesn't work?

Do you get what I'm trying to say? If it works, use it. Stop trying to use the "latest and greatest" operating system. If it works for you, USE IT! Use what works, and never mind the naysayers. Unless you absolutely need the "latest and greatest" for application updates, use what works. And to be honest, most applications support both Mountain Lion as well as Mavericks. And perhaps even earlier.

I'm not exactly "happy" with Mavericks, but it is working well enough to continue using. At least, its no worse than Mountain Lion was. This is my usage and opinion, and in no way is relevant to your experience. However, I can't imagine why you would continue to use an operating system that IS NOT working for you.

It might have something to do with RAM pairs, but why fight it, even if its mis-matched RAM? If ML works, use it.

Not trying to criticize, or even discourage you from Mavericks. I think Mavericks is well enough to use. I feel bad that you cannot use it. But since Mountain Lion works, why even consider Mavericks?

 

[KoolAid-Drink]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I've decided to upgrade again to Mavericks from ML, with a TM backup of ML handy. It's been installed for a day so far, and it SEEMS to be smooth and working better so far. My laptop was put to sleep while I was sleeping, and when I woke it up, there was no pause in WiFi connectivity. I have "Wake for Network Access" disabled, as some people said that would make a difference with the slow-from-wake-WiFi. It's still too early to tell, but let's see what happens in the next few days. So far, I'm a bit less discouraged, but let's hope this post won't jinx it! I wanted Mavericks because of the ease of iCloud Keychain, slightly better iMessage management, quick replies, and because the system fonts are a bit sharper and a bit easier to read on my screen. The display just looks more 'crispier' with Mavericks, if that makes sense.

And, to be clear, it's not exactly Mavericks that I'm discouraged with, I realized. It's more of Apple. Submitting numerous bug reports, seeing nothing being fixed... that's what was at the core of discouragement.

 

[scaredpoet]

The problem is not with these sorts of threads, but with Apple refusing to teach it's users how to safely test a new OS in a separate partition or drive.

No, sorry. No OS vendor, not even linux distros, promote this as a method of install for end users. This is fine in a beta environment, but once the OS goes GM and is released for general public use, this is not a practical strategy to be promoting.

That said, Apple by far has the best recovery method for a botched OS install: restoring from Time Machine backups.

The problem is that Apple insists on pushing the fantasy that it's safe for everybody to install a new version of OSX on top of an old version.

I can tell you it's not fantasy.

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And, to be clear, it's not exactly Mavericks that I'm discouraged with, I realized. It's more of Apple. Submitting numerous bug reports, seeing nothing being fixed... that's what was at the core of discouragement.

First, it's good that things seem to be working well for you now. Hopefully that remains the case. I'd suggest making sure you have a TM snapshot of this so you can go back to a "good" Mavericks state should things go south again.

IF the problems recur, I'm wondering about those bug reports. Are you including relevant log information from the console app with those reports? I understand users generally won't see it as their job to track these things down, but the reality is, a developer who is not seeing these same problems on hardware they can get their hands on probably won't respond so well if they don't have so much as a log to trace the error.

If they can't replicate it, then without any logs, there's nothing they can do.

 

[Felasco]

No, sorry. No OS vendor, not even linux distros, promote this as a method of install for end users.

So what? Sorry, I don't worship any of the OS vendors, and prefer to use my own brain.

This is fine in a beta environment,

Software released full of known bugs is beta, whatever the vendor may call it. Mavericks is still in beta now, whatever the Apple marketing department wishes to label it.

but once the OS goes GM and is released for general public use, this is not a practical strategy to be promoting.

It's not practical to the Apple brand to release software that results in zillions of complaints in all the Mac forums. Especially when we consider that the majority of these calamities are unnecessary could be easily avoided just by teaching people how to install safely.

That said, Apple by far has the best recovery method for a botched OS install: restoring from Time Machine backups.

Yes, that can work, except that the user's working OS is first killed, and then we have to hope the restore actually works, or they are screwed.

That said, a link at the beginning of the installer which advises users to first make sure they actually have a Time Machine backup of their existing setup would be a good step in the right direction. But I'm sure you'll oppose this too.

 

[dmccloud]

The problem is not with these sorts of threads, but with Apple refusing to teach it's users how to safely test a new OS in a separate partition or drive.

All it would take is a link in the installer such as "Learn How To Safely Install This Software", which could link to something like this:

http://apple-mac-blog.com/osx/1-step-1--how-to-install-osx-mavericks-safely.html

The problem is that Apple insists on pushing the fantasy that it's safe for everybody to install a new version of OSX on top of an old version. The truth is, it might be safe, or maybe it's not. In other words, you can't count on it.

All these sorts of threads are Apple's fault, one for not finishing software before it's released, and two for not teaching it's users how to safely test a new OS.

This doesn't mean Apple is evil, it means Apple is stupid, for pointlessly putting big dents in their world class brand.

You're starting this inane crusade again? I've already explained why your "solution" is not a solution to ANYTHING in multiple threads, and only increases the complexity to end users. Bottom line is your idea will do NOTHING to fix issues. Also, the vast majority of Mavericks users are not experiencing issues, so your solution would do nothing more than introduce a whole new layer of complexity to a userbase who by and large doesn't want that in their choice of computers and operating systems, and for minimal gain at best.

 

[Felasco]

You're starting this inane crusade again? I've already explained why your "solution" is not a solution to ANYTHING in multiple threads, and only increases the complexity to end users.

Note how you offer all those who are suffering nothing at all, and are content to just hit the reply button and say why something is wrong.

This is because like Apple, you don't give a hoot about all those who are suffering with these problems. You only care about defending the infallible wisdom of the Holy Mother Ship, and defeating any blaspheming apostate heretics who dare to suggest the current procedures might be improved by thinking differently, as endlessly suggested by the Holy Mother Ship itself.

You aren't arguing with me, but with the "think different" religious doctrines of the Holy Mother Ship, blessed be her sacred flawless name.

 

[Felasco]

So what would happen if there was a link in the OSX installer which pointed to documents educating users how to test a new OS in a separate partition or drive?

1) Some people would choose safety over convenience and install the new OS somewhere they could test it.

OR:

2) Other people would choose convenience over safety and choose instead to install the new OS on top of their old OS.

Everybody would be free to make whatever choice works best for them. Many Mac users would learn something new about their Mac experience. Apple would spend almost no money to implement this.

This is the big horrible crisis my critics have been attempting to protect you from.

 

[maflynn]

So you're recommending that apple post that people may have problem with their OS wtheir marketing is stating how great their OS is?

You've beaten that drum before and it's still a bad idea. Apple will never do is and I agree wi that decision

 

[fisherking]

So what would happen if there was a link in the OSX installer which pointed to documents educating users how to test a new OS in a separate partition or drive?

1) Some people would choose safety over convenience and install the new OS somewhere they could test it.

OR:

2) Other people would choose convenience over safety and choose instead to install the new OS on top of their old OS.

Everybody would be free to make whatever choice works best for them. Many Mac users would learn something new about their Mac experience. Apple would spend almost no money to implement this.

This is the big horrible crisis my critics have been attempting to protect you from.

be realistic. probably 99% of macusers are NOT geeks, and want to USE their computers, not test OS'es. your idea is neither practical, or logical.

most people use their macs to surf, email. organize their schedules. etc.
how many people would want to spend their time beta-testing? my guess: almost none...

 

[Felasco]

probably 99% of macusers are NOT geeks, and want to USE their computers, not test OS'es. your idea is neither practical, or logical.

I don't know the exact percentage, but yes, most Mac users are not nerds, agreed.

I also agree that most Mac users would prefer to simply click install, thus replacing their old OS with a new OS. I also agree that this likely works just fine a great deal of the time. I don't know the percentage, and neither do you, or Apple.

The difference between us is that I care about those times when it doesn't work, and you don't.

And neither does Apple, or they'd spend the $200 it would take to present an alternative for those who are willing to invest a little extra time in order to have a safer experience.

That's what you're arguing against, providing information and education, offering an option to those who want it.

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So you're recommending that apple post that people may have problem with their OS

Yes, because that is well documented truth. A failure to acknowledge that fact leads to a loss of credibility for Apple, which helps nobody.

You've beaten that drum before and it's still a bad idea. Apple will never do is and I agree wi that decision

Ok then, fair enough.

So please make the case why inexperienced users should not be told how to install OSX in an entirely safe manner, should they choose to do so.

Little blurbs that do little more than characterize my argument won't persuade anybody of anything. I invite you to make a reasoned argument and then stand behind it and defend it.

 

[dmccloud]

Note how you offer all those who are suffering nothing at all, and are content to just hit the reply button and say why something is wrong.

This is because like Apple, you don't give a hoot about all those who are suffering with these problems. You only care about defending the infallible wisdom of the Holy Mother Ship, and defeating any blaspheming apostate heretics who dare to suggest the current procedures might be improved by thinking differently, as endlessly suggested by the Holy Mother Ship itself.

You aren't arguing with me, but with the "think different" religious doctrines of the Holy Mother Ship, blessed be her sacred flawless name.

That's because I understand the REALITY of things, rather than your inaccurate misrepresentations of the facts. The MAJORITY of users are having no issues with Mavericks, as evidenced by Apple extending their lead in the most recent PC Magazine and Laptop Magazine customer reliability studies. The problem is that you somehow think users who a) have no clue about how to test software, b) want the simplest solution possible, and c) want that solution to be quick are gonna even build these test environments you falsely claim are needed. I've already explained this in detail multiple times, but your standard response is to ignore every argument that proves you wrong and rely on this strawman fallacy.

If the problems were as great as you claim, that would have been reflected in those reliability surveys, specifically in regards to software/OS. However, in both surveys, Apple received the highest possible scores in the software/OS category. So the numbers speak for themselves far better than your inaccurate characterizations of an reality only you perceive to be factual.

----------

So what would happen if there was a link in the OSX installer which pointed to documents educating users how to test a new OS in a separate partition or drive?

1) Some people would choose safety over convenience and install the new OS somewhere they could test it.

OR:

2) Other people would choose convenience over safety and choose instead to install the new OS on top of their old OS.

Everybody would be free to make whatever choice works best for them. Many Mac users would learn something new about their Mac experience. Apple would spend almost no money to implement this.

This is the big horrible crisis my critics have been attempting to protect you from.

So BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, your proposal would do nothing, as most people would choose convenience first. You're also setting up a false dichotomy between "safety" and "convenience", as what you're actually complaining about are NOT safety issues, but reliability and functionality issues, which again are NOT being experienced by the majority of Apple users. The "big horrible crisis" only exists in your mind, as none of the alleged "widespread", "systematic" issues actually exist on a level even remotely approaching widespread.