Feeling very discouraged with Mavericks - so many issues

Discussion in 'OS X Mavericks (10.9)' started by KoolAid-Drink, May 20, 2014.

  1. KoolAid-Drink macrumors 65816

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    #1
    First of all, apologies for the potentially 'troll-like' topic title. If you're an adamant Apple fanboy, not wanting to hear things from the "other side", just hit "Back" and forget this thread.

    I feel very discouraged with Mavericks. I previously downgraded from Mavericks to Mountain Lion, as the slowness to reconnect to Wi-Fi was bugging me (and so many others), Time Machine was misbehaving completely, and Console.app was not retaining window positions/sizes (admittedly, a small bug and not a dealbreaker).

    All of those issues, with the exception of the Wi-Fi slow-to-connect bug that began with 10.9.2, originated with 10.9.0. I have submitted numerous bug reports on those issues to bugreport.apple.com.

    I have installed 10.9.3 three separate times. Absolutely NO difference. No fixes at all. First install was a straight upgrade from my existing ML installation - the same issues persisted. Second was a test dummy install from SL with 6 user accounts. My god, that was a complete mess! The upgrade process completely mixed up the user accounts, not retaining settings such as accessibility settings for a certain user account. All desktop wallpapers were lost and reset to the default Mavericks wallpaper. The first boot after installation was particularly bad - I couldn't type passwords at all on the login screen and had to force reset, and the entire installation was just so sluggish and had a lot of weird misbehavior. (Same config upgrading to ML was completely smooth.) Third install was a clean, stock install, which seemed to work okay, even snappy, but the WiFi/TM/Console bugs persisted.

    At this point, I seriously feel discouraged with Apple and how they've handled Mavericks. I also feel like I'm talking to a brick wall - I feel like a lot of people has valid issues with Mavericks, but I feel attacked constantly by 'fanboys' or supporters who insist it's not Apple/Mavericks, that it's something I'm doing wrong, or something wrong with my install/config. It's not. It IS something with Mavericks; if it was my WiFi card, I'd have the same issue in ML. I don't. TM works flawlessly in ML. WiFi is connected right there after waking my laptop up (even after deep sleep). Upgrading from the test config to ML from SL worked a treat.

    I don't get it. I've submitted bug reports, etc. And, nothing seems to get fixed. Just stupid stuff most of us probably don't care about are listed on the release notes. It makes no sense that a direct bug report that gets human attention does not get fixed, especially if engineers told me a fix WAS coming for TM. It's 10.9.3 now - by 10.x.3 releases, typically the OS is smoothed out by then. Not Mavericks.

    I just don't know what to do anymore. I feel like my faith in Apple is disappearing. I'm afraid of what 10.10 will have to offer. I'm still on ML, because I can't stand the WiFi issue, but I don't want to be stuck on ML forever.

    Does anyone have any advice? No attacks, please. It's not my intention to troll this board.
     
  2. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #2
    good thing you started another thread about this...

    am not an apple fanboy, just a mac-user. i love os x, but love my nexus 7 too.

    a lot of people are having good experiences with mavericks...and some aren't.
    the thing is...ask for help here. talk to apple. see a 'genius'. seek out solutions to your issues...or abandon os x, and move to a PC...or a chromebook. or a pad and pen...

    seriously, if your worst issue is wi-fi being slow to connect...you're lucky. others are having more-serious issues.

    and...stop spending so much time on this. THREE installs? in the hopes that, on the THIRD try, something magical would happen?

    anyway..don't mean to be harsh. just this forum has become less about support, and questions/answers, and more about whining...

    my 2 cents! :cool:
     
  3. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #3
    Excuse me? I noticed you have been responding to my posts in a negative manner. If you have an issue with me, either put me on your ignore list or don't reply. I do NOT appreciate your approach at all. Saying I'm 'whining' IS invalidating my feelings. The sarcasm in your post is also unneeded.

    Yes, taking a few minutes to reconnect to WiFi after wake from sleep may not be the end of the world, but it's a dealbreaker for me. I'm a very busy person, and low on patience. If it worked fine pre-10.9.2 and in ML, why was it broken, and despite bug reports to Apple, nothing was done about it? That, compounded with the other issues mentioned... it's just too much. What really bothers me is the lack of activity Apple has taken to fix those issues. They used to be good about fixing issues with OS X, not sure what changed this time around...

    It's important to do QA testing, part of IT, and that's what I was doing on my personal time. Why is it a waste of time? If it helps improve OS X and lessen bugs, the better.

    I feel deflated, because I'm just trying to share my frustrations here. You are the perfect epitome of why I dread posting here nowadays, it's like nobody cares.

     
  4. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #4
    seriously, was not aware that i had responded to you on other threads...

    instead of looking for people to share your frustrations...look for fixes. keep it simple. talk to apple, for example...before installing an update 3 times. save yourself the aggravation.

    i only wish to point out that complaining about something is not the same as trying to DEAL with it, and that, at it's best, this forum is a great resource for getting HELP, useful information...and support.

    anyway...apologies if you felt personally attacked. NOT my intention...
     
  5. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #5
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19115107#post19115107

     
  6. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #6
  7. SCOLANATOR macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    What hardware are you running on?
    From what I've read (would also like to add my first Mac was is a late 2013 rMBP so I'm a new user and not some hardened fanboy) I think Mavericks is aimed at embracing the latest hardware like SSD's and the latest Intel chips etc, which looks like it results sometimes in a worse performance for users on older hardware. For me Mavericks works like a dream, still runs flawlessly and as fast as the day I got it, never set a foot wrong (well aside from an occasionally fussy mail app). WiFi has been solid. That's just my 2 cents though.
     
  8. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #8
    MacBook Pro - 13" late 2011. However, I upgraded my config to 10gb of RAM and a hybrid SSD/HDD - Momentus XT.

    If Apple geared Mavericks towards only new hardware, why did Apple release Mavericks to support as far back as 2007 machines?
     
  9. macuser453787 macrumors 6502

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    #9
    FWIW I hear you. After reading several Mavericks reviews in the App store, I decided to wait on Mavericks and get ML instead. Didn't get the impression from what I read that Mavericks has quite matured yet. Not that I know for sure one way or the other, but just decided to play it safe. Running 10.8.5 at work and thus far no issues. :)

    Maybe wait until 10.9.4 or 10.9.5 and try it another fresh install...?
     
  10. viizi macrumors regular

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    #10
    Well what are you expecting from writing this here? Apple won't read your problems by posting it here lol.

    I cannot check now but I know some of the issues you listed are not happening for me so maybe just do a clean install.

    Know that, it would have to be 100 x your situation to think about going to Windows for a better experience :p Not saying that as a fan boy either, I have to use both daily and also fix daily (hardware/software PC)
     
  11. fisherking, May 20, 2014
    Last edited: May 20, 2014

    fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #11
    just curious: 10g ram? how is that configured? 8g and 2g?

    EDIT: i've always read (or been told) that ram should be matching pairs, ideally the same chip. so, 2x4g, or 2x8gb chips. lots of discussion (pros & cons) about this on the web.

    anyone else have a thought about that? (see? am trying to help!)...
     
  12. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #12
    It was a bit odd because Crucial.com was selling 8gb with only one stick cheaper than 4gb x2 sticks, so I bought that instead, and supplemented the 8gb with one of the two 2gb sticks that originally came with my computer (it came with 4gb originally).

     
  13. scaredpoet macrumors 604

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    #13
    I wouldn't be surprised if the RAM module mismatches on your system are having a LOT to do with the issues you're having with Mavericks. One of the biggest changes in Mavericks is how RAM is used. It's a lot more linux-like (every last bit of free RAM is used if possible for caching), and there's memory compression going on to make the most of the available RAM.

    The thing is, having mismatched RAM modules means the RAM is running a lot slower than it's optimally capable of. This is true not just on Macs, but on most modern computer systems. This is why you can open up any factory-made PC, and you'll find matching RAM pairs installed, 99.9% of the time.

    As for SSD optimization: While Mavericks definitely runs screaming fast on an SSD, I've found it to not be any slower on a spinning-rust hard drive than Mountain Lion was. I've got Mavericks running a refurbed 2013 iMac with HDDs, and some older generation Macs at work dating as far back as 2008 with no slowdowns.

    One last thing: a fresh install of OS X will run slower for a while, while Spotlight does an indexing of the hard drive. On a non SSD system, the reindex can really thrash the drive and slow things down until its done. So sometimes, a fresh install is not the best time to see how fast or slow your Mac is going to be forever.

    Lastly, unless there's a very specific feature to Mavericks that you absolutely need, then there's no shame in going back to Mountain Lion if you're having problems under Mavericks.
     
  14. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #14
    Actually, to clarify, I am aware of the issues with mismatched RAM. However, consider the following arguments:

    -I am having zero issues on ML vs. Mavericks, even though ML is running on the same mismatched RAM.
    -The issues I have with Mavericks are widespread issues that are known, such as WiFi slow to reconnect after wake, TM issues, etc - the linked threads in my OP point to other people having the same issues.
    -As for sluggishness, that COULD be attributed to the "mismatched" RAM, but others have been reporting sluggishness with their Mavericks config.

    It's a good theory/idea, but realistically, if the RAM was really the culprit, ML would be acting kooky, too. It isn't.

    And, I've done plenty of clean installs, even re-downloading the full Mavericks installer to rule out any download corruption.

     
  15. crjackson2134, May 20, 2014
    Last edited: May 20, 2014

    crjackson2134 macrumors 68020

    crjackson2134

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    #15
    While I feel your pain, I would like to say something about the RAM.

    ML handles RAM VERY differently. In fact, this was one of the major highlighted differences. So no, just because it's not causing any issues as is under ML, doesn't mean that it won't under Mavericks. It may not be your particular problem, but it's not something to take lightly either. It very well could be the major factor in your case. I would. Pull the mismatched memory and run Mavericks for several days to find out.

    I'm having some oddities with Mavericks too right now. Mine never shuts down on the first try. It always reboots itself, the on the second try it shuts down. I upgraded to 10.9.3 and moved my boot drive to an SSD at the same time, so it could be either. I'm leaning towards a clean install onto the SSD. I THINK something may have went awry in the move rather than blaming the OS or the SSD directly.

    You should know that I also had sluggishness and lots of beech balls after the move. After 3 days usage all of that went away. It's quick and nimble now and beech balls are gone.

    I'm really going to HATE rebuilding all of my Apps/Data/Settings, but I don't think I'll rest until it's done.

    Also, if 10.8.5 works well for you, stick with it and skip this version. It was a very major rewrite under the hood (not so much on the surface), it had to be released right away for the nMP's arrival (I think), so perhaps the next version will be just what the doctor ordered for you.
     
  16. fhall1 macrumors 68040

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    #16
    I seriously doubt it's mismatched RAM quantities causing the OPs issues.
     
  17. scaredpoet macrumors 604

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    #17
    Again, there is a significant change between ML and Mavericks in how memory is managed. Just because all is fine on Mountain Lion does not mean that the same will be true on Mavericks. The two versions of the OS manage RAM in very different fashions.

    Just curious: you tried running Time machine on a different volume? There may be versioning issues involved here.
     
  18. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #18
    TM was on a different volume, yes. This issue has existed since 10.9.0 was released, and there's a link to a thread I began (in the OP) regarding this issue, which was confirmed by others, too, so it's not something wrong with my config. Apple engineering even confirmed a fix was on the way, but have yet to issue the fix for no apparent reason. Maybe it's a serious issue that's linked to something that changed in Mavericks, and can't be easily fixed? I dunno, but it's definitely not my config.

    Also, most of the issues I have are not related to memory. The sluggishness isn't bad - it's sporadic and is just general weird behavior that others has also reported.
     
  19. dmccloud macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    That can generate problems regardless of whether you're running OS X, Windows, or even a Linux distro. That system is designed for dual-channel RAM, which means matched pairs (same speed/size). Right now you have mismatched RAM, so the system has to default to single channel RAM usage. You might not be seeing as many issues with ML, but Mavericks (as several people have already stated) handles memory management in a completely different manner, so not having a proper RAM configuration might have more of an impact than you can realize. In short, you need a matched pair of RAM in that machine before even trying to narrow down the cause of the problem because that will negatively affect the RAM-CPU bandwidth.

    With your reinstalls of Mavericks, did you ever try a truly "clean" install? By that, I mean completely erasing/reformatting the drive, then installing Mavericks as a completely new OS rather than an upgrade, also reinstalling your apps instead of migrating them over via Time Machine. If not, that could be a contributing factor as well.

    Personally, I've upgraded three machines to Mavericks and this rMBP came with it installed by default, and I haven't experienced any of the issues that you have. That's why I don't buy the argument that Mavericks is "bad", because of the success I've had with multiple machines.
     
  20. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #20
    exactly. mavericks isn't 'bad', or good for that matter. it's just an OS in a long line of OS's. works well for most people, and not so well for others. there are bugs, as there ALWAYS are, but...a lot of issues have solutions, or workarounds.

    and that's my own frustration with these sort of threads, the assumption that, if i'm having an issue with the OS, everyone else is too. that it's not 'mavericks is not working well for me', but that 'mavericks sucks' etc etc.

    anyway, hope the OP sorts things out...
     
  21. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Fair point.

    Has anyone (who has also been experiencing this bug) been able to find a workaround to the slow-to-connect to WiFi after sleep?

    When I get the time, I'll test with matched RAM, or the original RAM modules that came with my laptop, and see if there's any difference.
     
  22. fisherking macrumors 601

    fisherking

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    #22
    there's a post somewhere on this forum (sorry, that's not very helpful), with some steps to try, that helped me (in 10.9.2), BUT...i lost all my internet settings (and had to restore them from a backup). ugh...

    seems this just...is what it is right now. am looking for a fix for the slow-to-reconnect issue as well, and will certainly post anything useful i find (unless, sigh, apple sorts it out first)....

    good luck!
     
  23. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #23
    If only things were as simple as that. They aren't so saying that it is Mavericks is exactly the same as claiming it's the user. WiFi is seriously complex, especially when they are using a standard that isn't completed or just released (e.g. 802.11ac). WiFi has many many many issues. Some are triggered by bugs in firmware of the hardware. Could be the hardware in the notebook, the hardware in the access point or even both.

    To give you an example: we've seen issues on our WiFi network at work. At first they blamed iOS 7 but after extensive research the problem was in certain Android versions (they spun up too many dhcp client sessions). Somehow people with iOS or Android devices experienced the problems more than others. Many universities also experienced these problems, one even months before the iOS 7 release.
    Also, reconnecting to WiFi after waking from sleep is quite slow on our network (takes 5 to 10 secs). This is caused by the security settings we use. This makes finding issues even more difficult because we can't tell if it is normal or abnormal behavior.

    Another example: some users with the Ubiquiti 802.11ac access point experienced problems with iOS devices and Macs refusing to connect to their portal/hotspot. Any other device works fine. The culprit ultimately was the Ubiquiti firmware (they have now pushed out a new beta version that fixes these issues). Other users have found out that they need to turn down the send/receive power of the ap (go from 20dB to say 15dB).

    What you find stupid could be very vital to somebody else (remember, we are on a forum where some of us notice 1 pixel differences in GUI elements and complain about it; however, I agree with you here, there are too many silly things in the release notes). Some things are just quite complex and not easily fixed. And some issues really do seem to not get fixed at all. I have no idea how many people they have working on the OS X code and if they are even able to resolve the issues. Maybe some of them are just too complex, costly, etc. to fix. I wish they'd tell us in those cases but I don't expect them too (saying no is not always taken up positively).

    Since Mountain Lion seems to work fine run it. Try to look beyond your Mac and see if it isn't another device that is actually causing the problem (the Mac may only make the problem noticeable) and see if upgrading software/firmware fixes issues. You can try it again with 10.10 but if you do try a clean install first (make a backup of your properly running system so you can restore).

    I don't think you can do more than that. It is always good to see people asking for advice instead of ranting on a forum though so kudos to you for going this (=the proper) route!
     
  24. KoolAid-Drink thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #24
    Very true. It's just that the release notes as of late has contained notes regarding issues such as SMB or dual display, which doesn't apply to me (so, obviously, I'm biased). I remember when Tiger point updates came out, there were extremely detailed changes on the changelog, and for each app.

    For example, for 10.4.4, here's a sampling of what was on the changelog/release notes:

    And more... LINK

    Another example, this time with Leopard.

    I examined some examples, and it seems that beginning with 10.6, Apple changed the direction of release notes from detailed to more of a general, brief summary, such as we see today.

    Compare that to today's paltry release notes. I prefer the way Apple used to list almost every change; that way, it seemed like they were actually improving the product and paying attention to feedback/bug reports.

     
  25. Felasco Guest

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    #25
    Hi KoolAid,

    I'm "stuck" on Snow Leopard. The vast majority of the time it's a good place to be stuck. I installed Mavericks in a partition, and whenever I'm in the mood to be tormented :) I visit and give it a try. Sometimes it even works well enough to test new software.

    You asked for advice, so here goes...

    It's going to take Apple awhile to sort out Mavericks. There's nothing we can do about it. Until then either forget about Mavericks, or create a separate install you can ignore when you're not in the mood for beta software posing as real software. Honestly, even if Mavericks was working perfectly, you aren't missing anything crucial, so don't sweat it.

    There's nothing we can do about Apple fan boys either. Some people wish to have a religious-like experience with Apple, which is their right. They are actually boys in real life most likely, victims of Apple's expert marketing, so don't let them under your skin.

    Either find a way to have fun arm wrestling with them, or when they call you a whiner etc put them on ignore. If you put them all on ignore as you find them, you'll eventually have a fan boy free forum experience. Personally, I enjoy my self appointed role as an apostate blaspheming heretic careening precariously along on the perpetual edge of being banned. :)

    Summary: You're taking Apple and Apple fan boys too seriously. I say this because I've made the same mistake myself too many times. It's just computers and anonymous strangers, it's not worth worrying about.

    PS: The next time I look like I'm worrying about it, read this sermon back to me, ok?
     

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