Finally, some good news on gay marriage

[ham_man]

THEREFORE LET IT BE RESOLVED, that the Twenty-fifth General Synod of the
United Church of Christ affirms equal marriage rights for couples regardless of gender
and declares that the State should not interfere with couples regardless of gender who
choose to marry and share fully and equally in the rights, responsibilities and
commitment of legally recognized marriage.

This was found here. I don't care what anyone says, as a Christian, I believe that marriage is meant between a man and a woman only. It was the will of Jesus Christ, and that is the duty of a Christian - too follow the will of Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, I expect alot of tumult in the UCC...

 

[mpw]

...I don't care...

Now there's a good Christian!

As a good Christian do you believe everything in the Bible or just the bits that quote Jesus?

Considering that the Bible has been so badly edited/translated over the years since it was first written, several years after the events that it is supposed to record by people who weren't there how do you know he's being accurately quoted.

What proof even of his existence do you offer let alone proof of what his will was?

Was it's His will that thousands were burnt as witches in Europe? If not why did Christians do it? If it was why don't you continue to do it, is it not your duty?

 

[PaRaGoNViCtiM]

I am a very big supporter of Gay Marriage. My girlfriend and I have been together for 4 years, and would like to be married. It's not fair that we aren't given the same rights as everyone else. It's all about equality. The Bible also says "Thall shall not judge".

 

[ham_man]

What proof even of his existence do you offer let alone proof of what his will was?

Faith.

 

[mpw]

Faith.

So no proof then. Just 'cause you have faith doesn't make something real. Steve Jobs had faith in a 3Ghz G5 a couple of years ago and it never happened.

Gay people shouldn't marry 'cause you believe in something that you can't prove and that makes no logical sense? Perhaps blind faith would be a more appropriate description. Are you perhaps using faith as a cover for your lack of tolerance of others. Do you follow everything as dictated in the Bible, Leviticus? I can't stand people who use 'faith' as an excuse for the evil they do.

 

[ham_man]

So no proof then. Just 'cause you have faith doesn't make something real. Steve Jobs had faith in a 3Ghz G5 a couple of years ago and it never happened.

That is the whole point of religion - to explain the unexplainable. Believe what you want, but I have faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Gay people shouldn't marry 'cause you believe in something that you can't prove and that makes no logical sense?

Genesis 2:24 - “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and
be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh”

I have had my say and am going to bow out of this conversation.

 

[mpw]

That is the whole point of religion - to explain the unexplainable. Believe what you want, but I have faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Genesis 2:24 - “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and
be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh”

I have had my say and am going to bow out of this conversation.

I note that you bow out having avoided a couple of the questions I asked. I will therefore assume that, as you quote Genesis from the old testament, you do indeed believe the whole Bible not just that attributed to Jesus.

Which I guess means along with not allowing gays to marry you would also happily put them to death, along with those heterosexuals who commit adultery or those who curse their parents.

You are of course anti tatoos, piercing, shaving, baldness etc. etc all on religious grounds too.

 

[solvs]

I have had my say and am going to bow out of this conversation.

This is a typical response at this point.

I was going to ask you to show me where Jesus comdemned homosexuality, but since you are "bowing out" I'll answer for you. He didn't. Never did. And if you use Leviticus as your moral guide, I can tell you that you are not following the words of Jesus himself. Even if you could (which you can't) it wouldn't matter. That's YOUR religion, YOUR belief. This being America, it wouldn't matter if 99.9% of the population felt the way you do, you still don't have the right to tell people what to do with their lives if it doesn't affect you at all. Which it doesn't. Believe what you want, but keep your beliefs out of my bedroom.

For the record, I am not gay. I do believe in God, and try to follow the actual words of Jesus through action, not just words. I do not hide behind my Bible to justify hatred. But I am sick of watching someone close to me who's a lesbian suffer because of people like you.

 

[colocolo]

That is the whole point of religion - to explain the unexplainable. Believe what you want, but I have faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

I totally agree with you.
I don't know why people have to pick on the Christians - 0 tolerance for your position.

By the way, my position in this subject is very clear; I find it funny to put in the same category two unions, one that ensures the survival of the human race and one that doesn't.

I mean, the Church isn't wrong about that, right? Or was there a major biological breakthrough that I'm not aware of?

Don't get me wrong, I do not condemn that kind of union at all - I am in no position to judge at all, as no Christian is. It's just that, can't you come up with your own name? And this has nothing to do with a particular religion, every single institution of marriage throughout history has been founded in the fact of procreation.
Be happy, be toghether, you have to decide for yourselves... just give it a proper name, please.

If any of you find my post offensive, I apologize in advance. I hope you understand the true meaning of it. And if you can't help getting angry with me, at least don't use it as an argument against God. Jesus is not guilty for me not being able to express myself any better.

 

[solvs]

You are of course anti tatoos, piercing, shaving, baldness etc. etc all on religious grounds too.

That's assuming his problem with homosexuality comes from his religious belief. I find the opposite to be often true, as they dislike homosexuality then use religion to justify that feeling. The same was true of slavery not so long ago, as with the crusades as well. If a lot of these people followed what Jesus actually taught, this would not be an issue.

 

[ham_man]

Having said that I have bowed out, I would like to make a few things clear.

#1 - I never have, nor will condemn homosexuality. I am glad to be apart of a denomination that accepts gays and lesbians.

#2 - Jesus quoted that Genesis passage in Mark 10:7 and Matthew 19:5.

#3 - I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.

#4 - This thread was about a Christian denomination allowing Gay marriage. The government is an entirely different matter.

 

[mpw]

That is the whole point of religion - to explain the unexplainable. Believe what you want, but I have faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

I totally agree with you.
I don't know why people have to pick on the Christians - 0 tolerance for your position...

Religion doesn't explain the unexplainable it just gives an unproven and unprovable theory which a bunch of people choose to adopt so they don't have to take responsibility for their hatred on themselves.

For the record I dislike most organized religions because what I see from most of them is people who can't be bothered to think for themselves. I don't kill people because I believe it's wrong I don't need a God to tell me that. I don't sleep with my mother or my neighbors wife because I think it's wrong not because God told me I shouldn't.

 

[solvs]

0 tolerance for your position.

Most of your post was pretty good, but this stood out. All homosexuals are asking for is the same thing, tolerance. I don't see why I would want to "tolerate" someone wanting to take away the rights of others when they can't tolerate the acts of 2 people who just want to be left alone to their own beliefs. You can believe what you want, but when that belief encroaches on others, that's where the problem comes in. I can respect your opinion, but I ask that you'd respect mine as well.

And for the record, marriage is more than just religious, it's also a legal contract. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of other religions that don't have a problem with gay marriage, as shown above. And all the marriages that don't lead to procreation. Same thing with recreational sex.

 

[mpw]

Having said that I have bowed out, I would like to make a few things clear.

#1 - I never have, nor will condemn homosexuality. I am glad to be apart of a denomination that accepts gays and lesbians.

#2 - Jesus quoted that Genesis passage in Mark 10:7 and Matthew 19:5.

#3 - I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.

#4 - This thread was about a Christian denomination allowing Gay marriage. The government is an entirely different matter.

Welcome back! So now you believe in only bits of the Bible? You'll feel pretty stupid if you get turned away at the gates when the good Christians find out you didn't stone the unclean!

 

[leekohler]

Welcome back! So now you believe in only bits of the Bible? You'll feel pretty stupid if you get turned away at the gates when the good Christians find out you didn't stone the unclean!

Bingo. This is what kills me. So many people who use religion as their arguement fail to see that religion has changed many times throughout history. And honestly, I don't give a damn what Christians think about gay marriage. But when they try to pass an amendment against it, that's where I have to step in and say no. Don't like gay marriage, don't have one! Let the rest of us decide for ourselves. Personally, I find it great to see this particular church standing up for what's right.

 

[leekohler]

I am a very big supporter of Gay Marriage. My girlfriend and I have been together for 4 years, and would like to be married. It's not fair that we aren't given the same rights as everyone else. It's all about equality. The Bible also says "Thall shall not judge".

Thanks for the kind words. Very Christian of you-and I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[PaRaGoNViCtiM]

Religion doesn't explain the unexplainable it just gives an unproven and unprovable theory which a bunch of people choose to adopt so they don't have to take responsibility for their hatred on themselves.
For the record I dislike most organized religions because what I see from most of them is people who can't be bothered to think for themselves. I don't kill people because I believe it's wrong I don't need a God to tell me that. I don't sleep with my mother or my neighbors wife because I think it's wrong not because God told me I shouldn't.

You just hit the nail right on the head!!!!!!!!
Thank you, Beautifully said!

 

[leekohler]

Religion doesn't explain the unexplainable it just gives an unproven and unprovable theory which a bunch of people choose to adopt so they don't have to take responsibility for their hatred on themselves.

For the record I dislike most organized religions because what I see from most of them is people who can't be bothered to think for themselves. I don't kill people because I believe it's wrong I don't need a God to tell me that. I don't sleep with my mother or my neighbors wife because I think it's wrong not because God told me I shouldn't.

I agree with you too, but let's not start a war here. People should be free to believe what they want. It's not our place to judge, anymore than it's their's. Please keep this civil guys.

 

[xsedrinam]

I've browsed through some 30ish of the posts in this thread and do not agree with the UCOC's decision, but will leave it at that, for now. I do have a question though, as it relates to the "common law" (7 yrs.?) period of couples who live together and seek legal recognition as the equivilant of being "married". It's probably more of a legal question within the context of same sex marriage, but does the State have autonomy to rule, accordingly, in the U.S. regarding "common law marriage"?

An added note to both "sides" of the argument (religious vs. a-religious). (a)Postmodern Christianity and a professed, personal (belief) trust in the Person of Christ and His Work and Teaching does NEITHER teach NOR condone hatred of the individual. Any attempt to portray genuine Christianity as a propagator of such is classic straw argument buildiing and uninformed pretext. (b)That someone is an "unbeliever" or agnostic, even antagonistc towards the teachings of the Church does not eradicate their individual dignity and thus grant license to those who are "believers" to throw flames in their direction.
X

 

[PaRaGoNViCtiM]

I agree with you too, but let's not start a war here. People should be free to believe what they want. It's not our place to judge, anymore than it's their's. Please keep this civil guys.

Good Point..you don't want me to go off!!!

 

[Macaddicttt]

Religion doesn't explain the unexplainable it just gives an unproven and unprovable theory which a bunch of people choose to adopt so they don't have to take responsibility for their hatred on themselves.

For the record I dislike most organized religions because what I see from most of them is people who can't be bothered to think for themselves. I don't kill people because I believe it's wrong I don't need a God to tell me that. I don't sleep with my mother or my neighbors wife because I think it's wrong not because God told me I shouldn't.

I'm not attacking you here, I just want to know a little bit more about what you believe. My question is, how is something wrong if there is no God or whatever to determine what is wrong? How is sleeping with your neighbor's wife wrong? What tells you that's wrong? How about killing? How do you know that's wrong? I'm sure a couple times you've been really angry with someone and you've had to restrain yourself from striking them (probably not to the point of killing, though). Why do you restrain yourself? What's the point? Is it because it's wrong? Or is it because you would suffer for your actions?

What does it matter what you do in life since once you die, you will no longer exist? I think of it like this. You were once a year old. But you can't remember a thing. Someone could have slapped you and dropped you and you would have cried and cried. But now you don't remember it. You don't remember any of the pain. It's like it never happened as far as you're concerned. So when you die, you're whole life will be like that. Then what's the point? Why try to do what's right?

I'm very interested to hear your response.

EDIT: By the way, I'm very religious and I've never truly hated anyone. My faith isn't about hate, it's about trying to do the right thing. I don't think gay sex is moral, but I don't hate gays. It's very unfair to claim that religion is all about hate just because some ignorant people use it for hate.

 

[.Andy]

EDIT: By the way, I'm very religious and I've never truly hated anyone. My faith isn't about hate, it's about trying to do the right thing. I don't think gay sex is moral, but I don't hate gays. It's very unfair to claim that religion is all about hate just because some ignorant people use it for hate.

Seriously you anti gay types give me the jeebies. There is nothing wrong with your opinion at all - no one is attacking your stance. You were brought up and brainwashed into thinking gay sex is immoral. It happens and you'll grow out of it one day when you get out and see the world or when you find out one of your best friends is gay. If you grew up without anyone telling you homosexuality was wrong you wouldn't have a problem with it at all. The rub that everyone is feeling isn't your religion at all. It isn't against your beliefs. No one wants you to do anything differently. If you think something is immoral well then two beers for you. You can sit at home and think that all you like. The problem occurs when you (and archaic religions) impinge on other peoples LIBERTY. That's what gives people the crumpets.

"Men and woman should be free to do anything they please without interference from society or state, unless their actions cause harm to others" - JSM. Hmmmm true liberty.

Ask yourself this - if Gay marrigaes were allowed how would that affect your life. That's right NOT AT ALL. You wouldn't be less of a christian/muslim/pagan/kangaroo. Nothing would change. No fire. No brimstone. No flood.

 

[mpw]

...how is something wrong if there is no God or whatever to determine what is wrong?...

I determine whether my actions are wrong by assessing how they will affect others and trying to see whether I'd be comfortable with the outcome of those actions if I were in another affected party's position.

How is sleeping with your neighbor's wife wrong?

It would cause emotional pain for all those involved, however I can see why it happens all the time and can't rule out that I would never be in a situation where I might choose to accept the consequences.

How about killing? How do you know that's wrong? I'm sure a couple times you've been really angry with someone and you've had to restrain yourself from striking them (probably not to the point of killing, though). Why do you restrain yourself? What's the point?

I think killing is wrong for the reasons above but again wouldn't rule it out per se but the circumstances would need to be extreme. I've been in a number of situations where my life has been threatened in my job but I always restrain myself and do the sensible thing in this society, call the Police. However if anybody were to put my children in direct danger and the only immediate course of action were to kill or sacrifice my children I wouldn't have any hesitation in taking life.

What does it matter what you do in life since once you die, you will no longer exist?...Then what's the point? Why try to do what's right?

The alternative doesn't appeal. I could of course ask whether the ONLY reason religious people don't cheat/kill etc. is because their scared of not getting into heaven? I suspect it's this theory that the early Christian Church used to control the pagan masses.

By the way, I'm very religious and I've never truly hated anyone. My faith isn't about hate, it's about trying to do the right thing. I don't think gay sex is moral, but I don't hate gays. It's very unfair to claim that religion is all about hate just because some ignorant people use it for hate.

I respect you as an individual who chooses to do the right thing and wonder if your religious faith is the reason for your attitude or whether your attitude and faith happen to co-exist. How does gay sex between two consenting adults affect you and why would it be immoral?

 

[thedude110]

Don't get me wrong, I do not condemn that kind of union at all - I am in no position to judge at all, as no Christian is. It's just that, can't you come up with your own name? And this has nothing to do with a particular religion, every single institution of marriage throughout history has been founded in the fact of procreation.
Be happy, be toghether, you have to decide for yourselves... just give it a proper name, please.

Oh! Separate but "equal!"

I can't believe no one's thought of that before ...

 

[leekohler]

I determine whether my actions are wrong by assessing how they will affect others and trying to see whether I'd be comfortable with the outcome of those actions if I were in another affected party's position.



It would cause emotional pain for all those involved, however I can see why it happens all the time and can't rule out that I would never be in a situation where I might choose to accept the consequences.



I think killing is wrong for the reasons above but again wouldn't rule it out per se but the circumstances would need to be extreme. I've been in a number of situations where my life has been threatened in my job but I always restrain myself and do the sensible thing in this society, call the Police. However if anybody were to put my children in direct danger and the only immediate course of action were to kill or sacrifice my children I wouldn't have any hesitation in taking life.



The alternative doesn't appeal. I could of course ask whether the ONLY reason religious people don't cheat/kill etc. is because their scared of not getting into heaven? I suspect it's this theory that the early Christian Church used to control the pagan masses.



I respect you as an individual who chooses to do the right thing and wonder if your religious faith is the reason for your attitude or whether your attitude and faith happen to co-exist. How does gay sex between two consenting adults affect you and why would it be immoral?

Good respones! I would have to agree with you an all these as well. They are many of the reasons I left religion. Also, I couldn't buy that anyone who wasn't Christian was going to Hell. What about Buddhists, Muslims, pagans and Jews? Doesn't make any sense. All these people are going to Hell? No way.