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Finally, some good news on gay marriage

Macaddicttt said:
EDIT: By the way, I'm very religious and I've never truly hated anyone. My faith isn't about hate, it's about trying to do the right thing. I don't think gay sex is moral, but I don't hate gays. It's very unfair to claim that religion is all about hate just because some ignorant people use it for hate.
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I am curious if you say that gay sex is immoral but you don't hate gays. How about if the society that you live in allows for same sex marriage and hereby saying that being gay is normal/moral. Do you, as a responsible citizen, start protesting against this rule/law, saying that it will erode your children moral education?

You can believe what you wish but it is when you start enforcing your beliefs onto others that cause the most harm.
 
angelneo said:
I am curious if you say that gay sex is immoral but you don't hate gays. How about if the society that you live in allows for same sex marriage and hereby saying that being gay is normal/moral. Do you, as a responsible citizen, start protesting against this rule/law, saying that it will erode your children moral education?

You can believe what you wish but it is when you start enforcing your beliefs onto others that cause the most harm.
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I hate the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. What a cop out. If someone doesn't like gays, they don't like gays. Just say so. I mean- I'm still gay even when I'm not having sex. I love how they try to dress it up.
 
thedude110 said:
Hi MacNut.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying? Can't someone disagree with some aspects of a relgion's dogma without having to leave that religion? In other words, shouldn't someone be able to be pro gay marriage (or pro birth control or pro death penalty or whatever) and still be Catholic? Maybe you could explain to me more clearly what you mean?
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A lot of things the church does I don't agree with a lot I do, What Im saying is that you can either agree or disagree with the church and still practice the faith or decide not to go along with the beliefs and leave the church. Some things they will not change and you either will have to live with it or find a new religion.
 
leekohler said:
I hate the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. What a cop out. If someone doesn't like gays, they don't like gays. Just say so. I mean- I'm still gay even when I'm not having sex. I love how they try to dress it up.
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Lets say for instance you don't like people wearing white shoes after labor day(just to be absurd. cf . Serial Mom ) Would you hate the fact that they do that? Presumably yes. Would you stop being friends with them just because of that?
 
War of the Words

This is a start that can't be finished. All churches will never accept the idea of gay marriage, so all that will happen is a fractured landscape of unions.

The problem is the word "marriage" having 2 meanings. One is a legal definition, upon which rights are conveyed and the other is a religious one, where each religion has its own ideas. Since every religion has their own separate idea of what a marriage means, there can be no definition. With no definition, marriage isn't a usable word in the context of religion without a defining prefix such as Catholic marriage, Jewish Marriage or Muslim marriage.

If States or countries create their own definitions, then once again, the word gets watered down to California marriage, German marriage, or even Camden County marriage! Where does it stop?

For a start, legal recognition needs to be completely separate from religious. A purely religious marriage should convey none of the legal benefits of the legal requirement. Anybody should be allowed to marry in the eyes of the law. Let churches sanctify their own marriages under their own definitions. Until we completely separate the two, where neither recognizes, nor crosses over into the other's territory (practical vs. spiritual), will we be able to settle on a working recognition of any desired union. Unfortunately, gays are pushing to be recognized in a spiritual way while churches are pushing for legal sway. I think there were some pretty good ideas about the separation of church and state around 229 years (and one day) ago.. Shame we've wandered a bit off the path... - j
 
jayscheuerle said:
For a start, legal recognition needs to be completely separate from religious. A purely religious marriage should convey none of the legal benefits of the legal requirement. Anybody should be allowed to marry in the eyes of the law. Let churches sanctify their own marriages under their own definitions. Until we completely separate the two, where neither recognizes, nor crosses over into the other's territory (practical vs. spiritual), will we be able to settle on a working recognition of any desired union. Unfortunately, gays are pushing to be recognized in a spiritual way while churches are pushing for legal sway. I think there were some pretty good ideas about the separation of church and state around 229 years (and one day) ago.. Shame we've wandered a bit off the path... - j
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The separation of church and state currently discussed is totally opposite of what the founder were talking about.

That aside, there was an episode of the West Wing were a liberal senator was going to push a bill to ban marriage all together. Following the logic if men weren't allowed to marry men and women marry women then no one should be allowed to marry.

I oppose "gay marriage", but I would join him in burning the house down.

I put "gay marriage" in quotes because none of the discussed laws ban homosexuals from marrying. They just stop men from marrying men or women from marrying women.
 
angelneo said:
I am curious if you say that gay sex is immoral but you don't hate gays. How about if the society that you live in allows for same sex marriage and hereby saying that being gay is normal/moral. Do you, as a responsible citizen, start protesting against this rule/law, saying that it will erode your children moral education?

You can believe what you wish but it is when you start enforcing your beliefs onto others that cause the most harm.
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It's ridiculous to think that I can't like people who I think are immoral. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that I have to hate people I think are immoral. You want to know why? Everyone's immoral. No one is without sin. By your standards, I'd have to hate myself. I'd have to hate my friends. I'd have to hate my family. Now I see why people think of religion as spreading hate. I don't hate anyone. I have gay friends, I have friends who have premarital sex, I have friends who steal, I have friends who do tons of things.

And no, I never said that I would force my beliefs on others. I would never do that. I would, however, try to live a life that is an example (I'm not doing so hot, though...) and I would share my beliefs and the reasons for my beliefs if someone asked me. You don't convert people by hating them. That's just stupid. You convert people by being good a good person and enjoying life. Then someone might ask you about your religion and you'd be happy to inform them of your beliefs.
 
MongoTheGeek said:
Lets say for instance you don't like people wearing white shoes after labor day(just to be absurd. cf . Serial Mom ) Would you hate the fact that they do that? Presumably yes. Would you stop being friends with them just because of that?
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Nice try. Isn't wearing white shoes a choice? Being gay isn't. And trust me- I don't stay friends with people who don't like my being gay for very long. It's too stressful to constantly hear how much they wish you weren't, blah-blah-blah. I do tend to walk away from those people. I mean, what would you do if you had a "friend" constantly asking you to stop being straight?

I also wouldn't try to get a law passed forbiding someone to wear white shoes. Is any of this sinking in yet?
 
MongoTheGeek said:
Lets say for instance you don't like people wearing white shoes after labor day(just to be absurd. cf . Serial Mom ) Would you hate the fact that they do that? Presumably yes. Would you stop being friends with them just because of that?
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Very good explanation. I don't understand it when people (esp. gays) say, "You think what I'm doing is wrong, therefore you hate me." Very well put. I understand a lot of people do hate gays and you do have to be on the defensive a lot, but please don't be so defensive that you're paranoid and think that everyone hates you.
 
Macaddicttt said:
Very good explanation. I don't understand it when people (esp. gays) say, "You think what I'm doing is wrong, therefore you hate me." Very well put. I understand a lot of people do hate gays and you do have to be on the defensive a lot, but please don't be so defensive that you're paranoid and think that everyone hates you.
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Fine. When they stop trying to pass laws against us I'll believe you. And no that wasn't a good explanation. See my post above.

And no- I don't believe everyone hates us.
 
Macaddicttt said:
It's ridiculous to think that I can't like people who I think are immoral. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that I have to hate people I think are immoral. You want to know why? Everyone's immoral. No one is without sin. By your standards, I'd have to hate myself. I'd have to hate my friends. I'd have to hate my family. Now I see why people think of religion as spreading hate. I don't hate anyone. I have gay friends, I have friends who have premarital sex, I have friends who steal, I have friends who do tons of things.

And no, I never said that I would force my beliefs on others. I would never do that. I would, however, try to live a life that is an example (I'm not doing so hot, though...) and I would share my beliefs and the reasons for my beliefs if someone asked me. You don't convert people by hating them. That's just stupid. You convert people by being good a good person and enjoying life. Then someone might ask you about your religion and you'd be happy to inform them of your beliefs.
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You are not answering my question. Would you oppose the society from recognizing that gay sex is normal? Since you think the act is immoral, wouldn't you, as a responsible citizen, try to correct such an act if the society tries to imply it as normal given that it would affect your family as well and how you live your life
 
MongoTheGeek said:
Lets say for instance you don't like people wearing white shoes after labor day(just to be absurd. cf . Serial Mom ) Would you hate the fact that they do that? Presumably yes. Would you stop being friends with them just because of that?
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I guess it's dependant on how much "hatred" or dislike you have for them. Given that there are accounts of how some people disowned their family members or friends once they learnt that they are gay, I would say it's a yes for some people.
 
Non-christians believe people should have freedom of religion, but
christians think we should all follow their religious law.

The bible says gays are scary and bad, but
the bible also says donkeys can talk.
Why are we still reading this thing?

Gay marriage is happening everywhere but uh, the middle east and America. So, we're not the least progressive country on earth then. Egypt can still kill you for being gay, after all. That makes us a beacon of human rights (lol!)
 
Well I'm gay, and don't believe in gay marriage. For that matter - I don't believe much is str8 marriage either. LOL
 
angelneo said:
You are not answering my question. Would you oppose the society from recognizing that gay sex is normal? Since you think the act is immoral, wouldn't you, as a responsible citizen, try to correct such an act if the society tries to imply it as normal given that it would affect your family as well and how you live your life
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Well, it's too late for everything else (premarital sex, gluttony, etc.), so why persecute gays? No, I would not try and pass a law against it. It doesn't affect anyone but the parties getting married or whatever. I don't see how allowing gay marriage would affect my life at all.
 
angelneo said:
I guess it's dependant on how much "hatred" or dislike you have for them. Given that there are accounts of how some people disowned their family members or friends once they learnt that they are gay, I would say it's a yes for some people.
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Well, then those people are ignorant idiots. We're not talking with them. You're not debating with them. You're debating with us.
 
leekohler said:
I hate the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. What a cop out...
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A big part of the problem is that some (not all) Christians believe, at least implicitly, that there's some kind of hierarchy of sins. They will readily cop to being a sinner themselves, but they are quick to denounce some sins (and by extension some sinners) as being worse than others. From there, it's an easy leap for them to start hating and persecuting people who they see as committing what they see as the "really bad" sins.
 
Lyle said:
A big part of the problem is that some (not all) Christians believe, at least implicitly, that there's some kind of hierarchy of sins. They will readily cop to being a sinner themselves, but they are quick to denounce some sins (and by extension some sinners) as being worse than others. From there, it's an easy leap for them to start hating and persecuting people who they see as committing what they see as the "really bad" sins.
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Exactly. BTW- love you signature. :)
 
First of all, I am not against gay marriage. If it doesn't harm anyone, for God's sake let them do it.

Second, I understand why Christians oppose gay marriage as being married for the church. I believe gay Christians have a different interpretation of the religion than the Christians who opppose this. Then why not start your own religion? Like the protestants did etc... And marry for the church which allows gays.

This is the same as a windows user trying to join a mac club (or vice versa). But it's discrimination for not letting me in because I use windows/mac. Well start your own club. One that allows only mac/windows or both.

I'm not really following this and I'm not from America, so I could be wrong on understanding the issue here. Where I'm from gay marriage is allowed for the state, but not for the church I believe.
 
Omen88 said:
First of all, I am not against gay marriage. If it doesn't harm anyone, for God's sake let them do it.

Second, I understand why Christians oppose gay marriage as being married for the church. I believe gay Christians have a different interpretation of the religion than the Christians who opppose this. Then why not start your own religion? Like the protestants did etc... And marry for the church which allows gays.

This is the same as a windows user trying to join a mac club (or vice versa). But it's discrimination for not letting me in because I use windows/mac. Well start your own club. One that allows only mac/windows or both.

I'm not really following this and I'm not from America, so I could be wrong on understanding the issue here. Where I'm from gay marriage is allowed for the state, but not for the church I believe.
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Here's the thing- I don't think too many people care if they can get married in a church or not. But many religious people have been trying to pass laws against gays getting married in the legal sense. I started this thread because it was nice to see a church taking this stance for a change.
 
leekohler said:
Here's the thing- I don't think too many people care if they can get married in a church or not. But many religious people have been trying to pass laws against gays getting married in the legal sense. I started this thread because it was nice to see a church taking this stance for a change.
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Ah ok. I thought the problem was entirely being that gays couldn't marry for the church.

Well that's pretty weak of them. I consider myself as right-wing, but if two people want to marry then let them do it. There's no necessity for it being a man and a woman.

On gay adoption I feel differently though.
 
Omen88 said:
Ah ok. I thought the problem was entirely being that gays couldn't marry for the church.

Well that's pretty weak of them. I consider myself as right-wing, but if two people want to marry then let them do it. There's no necessity for it being a man and a woman.

On gay adoption I feel differently though.
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Wow- that's funny. There are a lot of states here that allow adoption. I guess we're polar opposites.
 
leekohler said:
Wow- that's funny. There are a lot of states here that allow adoption. I guess we're polar opposites.
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So gay adoption is allowed, but gay marriage isn't? I find that rather hypocrital, so that's stating that your parents are not allowed to marry.

Very weird indeed :)
 
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