First App Using Apple and Google's Exposure Notification API Launches in Switzerland

[gnasher729]

Gov'ts don't like the API, because it doesn't give them the control they want. They really want to use the current climate of public fear to socialize the idea that they have "good" reasons to impinge upon our personal freedom and privacy, we just need to trust them. Right. I trust them about as far as I can throw them in a telephone booth (remember those?).

I think governments ask some more or less expert, and the obvious way is everyone collects their locations all the time, sends it to a big server, and the server figures out who is close to who. That's the _obvious_ solution, not a good solution. So the Apple/Google solution will contradict what their experts say, and that will lead to resistance.

Being able to use that information is more likely an afterthought. Another thing that speaks against the Apple/Google API is that it is very, very cheap. People's phones do all the work. If it was used by 100% of people in the UK, there are about 50,000 or so currently infected, so all the information stored outside the phones would be the codes that 50,000 phones used in the last 14 days; that's a few MB. The only thing that needs capacity is that millions of phones would download that information every day, and Apple/Google handle that. So how can anyone make money from that solution? You write an app, that's simple, and put it on the App Store and Google Play. Where are big consulting fees and fees for running hardware come from? Whoever develops it would very much prefer a centralised version that they can charge huge money for.
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as long as you can install it (it will only be released on the Swiss App Store) I don’t think you need to be in Switzerland. As they claim there won’t be any location logging they won’t know where you’re at anyway (allegedly). The question is: how useful is the app if you live in a state where the API won’t be available? If there’s nobody using it, it’s pointless.

If you go to another country where everyone uses their own countries app with the same API, it should still work. And if two Swiss people travel independently to the USA and happen to stay in the same hotel, it would also work for them - and for everyone who has an app with the same API.

 

[Picard J.L.]

Because spreading a disease that's already killed hundreds of thousands is... a joke? We could have been practically done with this by now if people had followed reasonable precautions (as they did in some countries). Now we have another reasonable and practical solution, but hey, spreading paranoia is more fun than getting the economy back on track and saving lives.

People like you are precisely the reason why everything is upside down right now.

 

[Lookasso]

I don't understand how can a contact tracing app work, if it "collects no personally identifiable data or location information".
These are the only two important things which I can think of, that should be collected by a contact tracing app.

Anyway, I'm really astonished that some people don't seem concerned about this (and many other things happening now).
There is no need to be paranoid or a conspiracy theory freak, to see that there is something else going on in the background of this Corona crisis.
It's very clear that we're facing a second wave of violation of rights and privacy, and a deeper and deeper control of the governments over all aspects of our lives (the first wave being the post 9/11 "temporary" security measures which became definitive).
What will be next, an obligatory microchip implant?

 

[bsolar]

I don't understand how can a contact tracing app work, if it "collects no personally identifiable data or location information".
These are the only two important things which I can think of, that should be collected by a contact tracing app.

There are plenty of resources which explain the concept behind these apps and how they manage to work while still being decentralized and privacy-preserving.

• The original protocol is actually open-source and you can learn about it starting e.g. from here.
• Apple has also a page detailing its own technology, which is heavily inspired by the protocol above: you can find everything here.

 

[beermode]

The fact so many health workers with proper PPE training and resources are still catching it while working would show it isn't that hard to catch.

This will be interesting to watch how other countries view the Apple/Google API.

Most healthcare workers are probably getting this by other means, mass transit, enclosed apartment hallways, elevators, etc.

 

[verpeiler]

People like you are precisely the reason why everything is upside down right now.

Now I'm curious, tell me more why he is a reason and for what. And what is upside down right now?

 

[malkovich87]

You are spreading misinformation. First of all, that "people really don't trust the government with their data here" is pretty much BS: don't generalize your personal opinion as some kind of fact.

Most important, in Switzerland if you get quarantined you definitely still get paid your salary. If you need, explanation in English:




Switzerland was always against a centralized, privacy-infringing solution and was working on a decentralized, privacy-preserving solution long before Google and Apple came out with their own technology: actually their technology is inspired on that original effort:



DP-3T stands for Decentralized Privacy-Preserving Proximity Tracing, which is designed to do exactly what's on the tin.

Yeah I’m sorry, the one spreading misinformation here is you. According to a representative survey done today by isopublique, less than 10% of the respondents said they’d install the app, citing trust issues as the main reason for not wanting to install it. I’m afraid it is you who is generalizing your personal opinion my friend.

 

[md11]

Yeah I’m sorry, the one spreading misinformation here is you. According to a representative survey done today by isopublique, less than 10% of the respondents said they’d install the app, citing trust issues as the main reason for not wanting to install it. I’m afraid it is you who is generalizing your personal opinion my friend.

Well maybe you can share a link to your isopublique information.
I read a figure of about 60% are willing to install the app.
I think in Switzerland the governments reputation is not like you describe it, it is quite the opposite, the trust is quite high compared to other states.
Generally the people were satisfied with the handling of the crisis. After the crisis everybody is smarter.

 

[bsolar]

Yeah I’m sorry, the one spreading misinformation here is you. According to a representative survey done today by isopublique, less than 10% of the respondents said they’d install the app, citing trust issues as the main reason for not wanting to install it. I’m afraid it is you who is generalizing your personal opinion my friend.

You mention a survey, but provide no source. I googled about it and found nothing. But even assuming the survey exists and is credible, your claim that those in quarantine are not entitled to their salary is factually incorrect and undeniably misinformation.

 

[tayalva]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[CarlJ]

I don't understand how can a contact tracing app work, if it "collects no personally identifiable data or location information".
These are the only two important things which I can think of, that should be collected by a contact tracing app.

Anyway, I'm really astonished that some people don't seem concerned about this (and many other things happening now).

Go. Read. The. Damn. Spec. At least read the FAQ for the spec. It lays it all out. The API can't be misused by governments to track people's location, because it doesn't collect that information.

Getting really tired of people saying, "(I've done nothing to learn about the design of this system but) clearly it must collect information useful for spying on / tracking people".

 

[CarlJ]

i am struggling to understand why someone would input into the app that they are covid positive or have symptoms?

why exactly would anyone be responsible enough to do that and then not self quarantine anyway?

or will testing companies have to register your phone as positive or something??

not sure I get this.

Correct, you don't get this. Your second sentence reads like you think this is so that someone can check up on you. You don't tell the app that you have symptoms - if you have symptoms, you go get tested. If the test comes back positive, the testing agency gives you a one-time QR code to scan with the app (this is to prevent people from trolling the system - yes, there are other ways this can be implemented, this describes one of the best / most likely). You scan that code, and in response the app uploads the random identifier tags that your phone has been using for the last couple of weeks to a central database. Then everyone else's phone (and yours, obviously) downloads this database every day, and their phones compare all the tags they've seen nearby, with all the tags in the database. If there's a match, meaning they've been close to someone who has subsequently tested positive, then the app tells them they should self-quarantine and get tested.

The real point isn't to make you self-quarantine, it's to let those who have been near you know (anonymously) that they have been near someone who has tested positive, so they can self-quarantine.

This virus thrives on people walking around cluelessly infecting others when they don't know that they themselves have been infected. The app can let you know that you've been exposed long before you develop symptoms, so you can isolate from others to keep from infecting them. It breaks the chain of infection.

Contact tracing - by hand - has been shown to be one of the most effective ways of stopping the virus (this one and others previously). Doing it by hand is much more invasive and time consuming - it involves a healthcare worker calling you and having you list everywhere you've been and everyone you've been in contact with over the past week or two, and then they have to contact all those people and repeat the process over and over. This app automates that. In a way that's much more private / less invasive than the manual method. It's also much faster, so it has a much better chance of alerting people before they can spread the virus further.

 

[threesixty360]

Correct, you don't get this. Your second sentence reads like you think this is so that someone can check up on you. You don't tell the app that you have symptoms - if you have symptoms, you go get tested. If the test comes back positive, the testing agency gives you a one-time QR code to scan with the app (this is to prevent people from trolling the system - yes, there are other ways this can be implemented, this describes one of the best / most likely). You scan that code, and in response the app uploads the random identifier tags that your phone has been using for the last couple of weeks to a central database. Then everyone else's phone (and yours, obviously) downloads this database every day, and their phones compare all the tags they've seen nearby, with all the tags in the database. If there's a match, meaning they've been close to someone who has subsequently tested positive, then the app tells them they should self-quarantine and get tested.

The real point isn't to make you self-quarantine, it's to let those who have been near you know (anonymously) that they have been near someone who has tested positive, so they can self-quarantine.

This virus thrives on people walking around cluelessly infecting others when they don't know that they themselves have been infected. The app can let you know that you've been exposed long before you develop symptoms, so you can isolate from others to keep from infecting them. It breaks the chain of infection.

Contact tracing - by hand - has been shown to be one of the most effective ways of stopping the virus (this one and others previously). Doing it by hand is much more invasive and time consuming - it involves a healthcare worker calling you and having you list everywhere you've been and everyone you've been in contact with over the past week or two, and then they have to contact all those people and repeat the process over and over. This app automates that. In a way that's much more private / less invasive than the manual method. It's also much faster, so it has a much better chance of alerting people before they can spread the virus further.

Ok I get it. It relies on you having the test and telling the system your results.

maybe it would be better if the qr code actually had to be input into the app to get the results.

 

[Tech198]

How strange many Euro countries are resistant because it DOESN'T collect location data.

The Australian government has been trying hard to convince people to install their COVISSafe app (not using Google/Apple tech) that it isn't about tracking people's movements. That app has reported apps and now seems stalled at 6,000,000 downloads - well under the first floated 10,000,000 required to actually be effective.

Many of us can't understand how the virus "knows" it's only dangerous if you have been close to someone for 15 minutes or more. Not 14 minutes. Given it can lie on surfaces for extended periods, hangs in the air for quite a while and just needs a sneeze from a passerby at the wrong time.

The fact so many health workers with proper PPE training and resources are still catching it while working would show it isn't that hard to catch.

This will be interesting to watch how other countries view the Apple/Google API.

Many would is is disagree here in Australia... The fact we haven't got reliable tests from our own Aussie app, is no one will be in range for more than 12 minutes... The time is to long. Many may have downloaded, but no ne can prove with "the help of the app"

However, which ever way countries use to help track and help prevent the spread, it will be a waste, because its almost over... in some countries..

i.e here in AUS, we're already gong back to school and work.

 

[malkovich87]

Nobody gives the address to the restaurant because the address is not required, only name and tel. Furthermore the information is not given to government authorities, it's kept by the restaurant up to 14 days and must be destroyed afterwards.

More info here. (DE/FR/IT only).

some people are very naïve and actually believe that restaurants destroy valuable customer data that they can use for advertising afterwards.
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Well maybe you can share a link to your isopublique information.
I read a figure of about 60% are willing to install the app.
I think in Switzerland the governments reputation is not like you describe it, it is quite the opposite, the trust is quite high compared to other states.
Generally the people were satisfied with the handling of the crisis. After the crisis everybody is smarter.

60% is what’s necessary for the app to be efficient. The BAG media guys took that number and thought that’s how many people are willing to install that app. Thats however not the case. I’m theoretically among the beta group but literally nobody I work with is willing to install the app.
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You mention a survey, but provide no source. I googled about it and found nothing. But even assuming the survey exists and is credible, your claim that those in quarantine are not entitled to their salary is factually incorrect and undeniably misinformation.

again, you’re spreading misinformation:

Keine Lohnfortzahlung bei freiwilliger Quarantäne nach App-Alarm

Der Bund gab heute bekannt, dass Personen, die sich nach einem App-Alarm freiwillig in Quarantäne begeben, keinen Anspruch auf Lohnfortzahlung haben.

telebasel.ch

 

[bsolar]

some people are very naïve and actually believe that restaurants destroy valuable customer data that they can use for advertising afterwards.

This has nothing to do with the data being shared with the government though, which was your original point.

I’m theoretically among the beta group but literally nobody I work with is willing to install the app.

That's an interesting anecdotal input, but anecdotal still.

again, you’re spreading misinformation:

Keine Lohnfortzahlung bei freiwilliger Quarantäne nach App-Alarm

Der Bund gab heute bekannt, dass Personen, die sich nach einem App-Alarm freiwillig in Quarantäne begeben, keinen Anspruch auf Lohnfortzahlung haben.

telebasel.ch

The article you cite states that salary is not due if someone puts him/herself in voluntary quarantine during the pilot-phase. Let's compare it with your original claim:

if you get notified that you’ve been potentially exposed, you need to self-quarantine for 14 days

You claim that if you get notified you need to self-quarantine, so which is it, is the quarantine voluntary or mandatory? Actually in any way you want to cut it, you are spreading misinformation:

• If the quarantine is voluntary: your claim that it's needed is incorrect.
• If the quarantine is not voluntary: your claim that salary is not due is incorrect.

 

[malkovich87]

This has nothing to do with the data being shared with the government though, which was your original point.


That's an interesting anecdotal input, but anecdotal still.


The article you cite states that salary is not due if someone puts him/herself in voluntary quarantine during the pilot-phase. Let's compare it with your original claim:

You claim that if you get notified you need to self-quarantine, so which is it, is the quarantine voluntary or mandatory? Actually in any way you want to cut it, you are spreading misinformation:

• If the quarantine is voluntary: your claim that it's needed is incorrect.
• If the quarantine is not voluntary: your claim that salary is not due is incorrect.

you can keep taking all you want - the fact remains that the app is highly unpopular and that you don’t get paid if you stay at home. The government can’t make you stay home just on suspicion alone. Anyone who gets notified through the app stays home voluntarily and will not get paid. So the app is for nothing and nobody will install it. This ends the conversation from my side as all you’ve been doing is trying to wiggle yourself out of the bogus claims you’ve been making. Have fun

 

[bsolar]

you can keep taking all you want - the fact remains that the app is highly unpopular and that you don’t get paid if you stay at home. The government can’t make you stay home just on suspicion alone. Anyone who gets notified through the app stays home voluntarily and will not get paid. So the app is for nothing and nobody will install it. This ends the conversation from my side as all you’ve been doing is trying to wiggle yourself out of the bogus claims you’ve been making. Have fun

Even your last post is full of BS:

the fact remains that the app is highly unpopular

Anecdotal opinion stated as fact.

The government can’t make you stay home just on suspicion alone.

Why not? The policy is not finalized yet, as even the article you cited clearly states. Maybe it will, maybe it will not, but the point is you don't know yet and should not present it as a matter of fact when it's not yet the case.

Anyone who gets notified through the app stays home voluntarily and will not get paid.

Actually no, more realistically someone notified would contact the employer and the employer would very likely request them to stay home, because asking them to come to work could potentially cripple their operations far worse.

This ends the conversation from my side as all you’ve been doing is trying to wiggle yourself out of the bogus claims you’ve been making.

You mean by pointing out your factually incorrect claims, debunking them with clear, irrefutable evidence? Whereas all you had to support your claims was either anecdotal opinion, plain missing (still waiting for that survey you cited but never provided a link for), or after actually reading it, clearly being misrepresented?

If there's someone trying to "wiggle out" it's definitely not me.

Have fun

I definitely will.

 

[bsolar]

60% is what’s necessary for the app to be efficient. The BAG media guys took that number and thought that’s how many people are willing to install that app.

Ah you know, by the way I eventually actually found a survey about that, although it shows a very different picture compared to the one you cited before but never provided any source for:

A Swiss smartphone app that uses Apple-Google technology to help trace coronavirus infections has widespread support among the population, a new survey shows.

Around 70% of Swiss residents welcome the introduction of the decentralised contact tracing application DP-3T, according to a poll published on Monday by the research consultancy.

In all, 59% of the 2,819 people surveyed said they would install the “SwissCovid” app in the coming weeks. There were no big differences between age groups.

 

[arubinst]

you can keep taking all you want - the fact remains that the app is highly unpopular and that you don’t get paid if you stay at home. The government can’t make you stay home just on suspicion alone. Anyone who gets notified through the app stays home voluntarily and will not get paid. So the app is for nothing and nobody will install it. This ends the conversation from my side as all you’ve been doing is trying to wiggle yourself out of the bogus claims you’ve been making. Have fun

This is an official report with plenty of information about the opinion survey of the Swiss population regarding the app https://www.bag.admin.ch/dam/bag/fr...d.pdf/OFSP_SwissCovidApp_sondage_mai_2020.pdf

It does indeed state that 70% of the population welcomes the app. It also states an interesting fact. That most people don't know how it works and don't know either the decentralised character of the protocol. Of course, if people like you keep spreading fudge, disinformation might indeed end up hurting people's trust.

I recently replied to a new survey from sotomo, the same organisation that has run all other surveys about the app, including the one explained in the report.

I'm running the app. My coworkers are also running the app. So there you go, I present you here some anecdotal information refuting yours. By the way, the app is open source, in case you want to analyse the code and give us your arguments after you have found all the reasons why it should not be installed.

 

[malkovich87]

Ah you know, by the way I eventually actually found a survey about that, although it shows a very different picture compared to the one you cited before but never provided any source for:

Mehrheit will Corona-Warn-App nicht installieren

56 Prozent der Schweizer Bevölkerung verzichten darauf, die Corona-Warn-App des Bundes zu benutzen. Viele glauben nicht an den Nutzen und fürchten sich vor einer Verletzung des Datenschutzes, wie eine Umfrage zeigt.

www.20min.ch

And then there's that. Actual installation numbers are currently in the vicinity of 20 - 25% percent according to the government agency I work for. The entire thing is a complete fail, as I've been saying all along. At least 60% of the population needs to install the app in order for it to work as intended.

 

[bsolar]

And then there's that. Actual installation numbers are currently in the vicinity of 20 - 25% percent according to the government agency I work for. The entire thing is a complete fail, as I've been saying all along.

20-25% is far more than "nobody" as you originally claimed. Actually, 20% was the "optimistic" goal the BAG stated before the application launched, so they actually exceeded expectations.

Sang-Il Kim, the Head of Dept. Digital Transformation at the BAG, said that 20 percent was an optimistic goal. "I would be happy if 20 percent of the smartphones would use the app," Kim said.

Furthermore, even "only" 20% is still not a "fail": the reason you might be mistakenly thinking otherwise is likely due to the following:

At least 60% of the population needs to install the app in order for it to work as intended.

This is (unsurprisingly again) misinformation: the erroneous claim originates from a research from Oxford University but it's actually based on misreporting of said research:

"There’s been a lot of misreporting around efficacy and uptake… suggesting that the app only works at 60% - which is not the case," says Andrea Stewart, a spokeswoman for the Oxford team. In fact, she says, "it starts to have a protective effect" at "much lower levels."

More specifically:

Many media reports and analyses picked up on one sentence of the report that states: "Our models show we can stop the epidemic if approximately 60% of the population use the app." But they have routinely omitted the second half of the sentence: "Even with lower numbers of app users, we still estimate a reduction in the number of coronavirus cases and deaths."

 

[malkovich87]

20-25% is far more than "nobody" as you originally claimed. Actually, 20% was the "optimistic" goal the BAG stated before the application launched, so they actually exceeded expectations.


Furthermore, even "only" 20% is still not a "fail": the reason you might be mistakenly thinking otherwise is likely due to the following:



This is (unsurprisingly again) misinformation: the erroneous claim originates from a research from Oxford University but it's actually based on misreporting of said research:



More specifically:

lol - I feel sorry for you.

 

[bsolar]

lol - I feel sorry for you.

I take that as you not having arguments now that I - yet again - completely debunked your misinformation.

An actual suggestion: do some more research before being so sure of your opinions. Always cross-reference what you read from news, especially if what you are reading are newspapers or sites which tend to sensationalize or clickbait. Always try to find the actual sources and read what they actually say and find reputable alternative sources to be able to compare takes.

Almost everything you posted in this thread was misinformation, but you are not entirely to blame: some of the news articles you cited were in part responsible too for misinforming you and had a big part in you forming questionable opinions. Said that, I don't think you are a kid anymore and you ought to know better and try to be less gullible.

 

[manu chao]

Actual installation numbers are currently in the vicinity of 20 - 25% percent according to the government agency I work for. The entire thing is a complete fail, as I've been saying all along. At least 60% of the population needs to install the app in order for it to work as intended.

What matters in the end, is how many people receive an exposure notification thanks to this app, in particular, compared to how many people receive an 'exposure notification' through traditional contact tracing. Even increasing the 'exposure notifications' by let's 20% with this app would bring a noticeable benefit.