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So I was bored and read my 10.5.0 EULA.

Psystar is violating Section 2 (Permitted License Uses and Restrictions) of the Apple EULA:

A. Single Use. This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-labeled computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

(emphasis mine)

So that is one legal area Apple could consider pursuing.
 
You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-labeled computer,

That's basically the whole argument. The question is whether or not a breach of an EULA is Sufficient Grounds (coffee store) for legal action or simply a denial of service/warrantee.

At least... that's what I think it's about. I'm not reading all of the defenders' rants and critics' pans.
 
Guys, this whole debate on whether or not Apple is a monopoly is irrelevant.

The case law that gets Apple in a bind doesn’t rely on Apple being a monopoly. The issue is, can Apple tie its software to only its hardware?

The case of Dyne Corp. Vs. Data General (734 F.2d 1336 (9th Circuit, 1984)) held that Data General’s refusal to license its copyrighted computer software to those who did not purchase its hardware was an unlawful tying arrangement. Note that Cupertino, CA is in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals so it applies directly to Apple. Apple insists that California law be used to resolve disputes with the EULA. The EULA states:

12. Controlling Law and Severability. This License will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of California, as applied to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California between California residents…..

So a 9th Circuit Court decision will come into play where ever the case is heard.

No where in Dyne vs Data General does it state that the defendant (Data General) has to be a monopoly. Even if Apple has only 0.00001% of the computer market, the tying restriction applies. This is not good for Apple and their lawyers will have to argue around the Dyne vs Data General case.
 
No where in Dyne vs Data General does it state that the defendant (Data General) has to be a monopoly. Even if Apple has only 0.00001% of the computer market, the tying restriction applies. This is not good for Apple and their lawyers will have to argue around the Dyne vs Data General case.

The Dyne vs Data General case is interesting - I'm no lawyer, but if Apple did go to court against PsyStar no doubt this would come up, and Apple would have to prove that it isn't the same situation - which might be tough. So Apple's silence might be the best policy with regards to Psystar, but it still doesn't solve anything for Apple - Psystar might indeed have pushed Apple between a rock and a hard place. But then again, many companies have tied Software to their hardware for many many years, and it still continues today even apart from Apple. That is if it even got to the stage where a judgement was made and Psystar had decent laywers to defend them - two points I can't see happening in the event of a court case, I don't think Psystar could stay the distance to see it through.

I'm not certain where this will all end up. I await the eventual outcome with interest, and I still don't expect Psystar to be around in say 2 years. But, we will certainly remember Psystar for a long long time.

PS: Someone needs to tell Magnumvonmac and Eric.S to calm down, sit back and broaden their perspective. Then once they've understood other people's arguments on here they should comment, rather than rejecting them outright.
 
PS: Someone needs to tell Magnumvonmac and Eric.S to calm down, sit back and broaden their perspective. Then once they've understood other people's arguments on here they should comment, rather than rejecting them outright.

Nah, they are doing just fine.
 
I'm not going back through seventeen pages of EULA bickering... here's what will happen.

Apple is obviously looking into the Psystar situation, that much is certain.

They WILL NOT ACT unless they are convinced that their argument will not lose a court case. They will fine tune this argument until it is perfect, until there are no legal loopholes. Prior to taking Psystar to court, Apple will update the wording of the Leopard EULA for the 10.5.3 update so as to solidify their case.

Then all Cupertino will break loose.

They could be also doing something very unprecedented for Apple of late, actually listening to the customers who are not fanatics for a change. The only reason that a company like Pystar exists is because there is a need on the platform that Apple does not currently fill. Apple does mobile well, they do small form factor/ all in one well. The same principles for those do not translate at all to the traditional desktop market and the "go buy a $2500 workstation" line doesn't quite work. Pystar as a company is not much of a credible threat, but as far as things have gotten it would be bad P.R. for Apple to go in heavy handed. Better to let them do the groundwork for Apple.
 
Guys, this whole debate on whether or not Apple is a monopoly is irrelevant.

The case law that gets Apple in a bind doesn’t rely on Apple being a monopoly. The issue is, can Apple tie its software to only its hardware?

The case of Dyne Corp. Vs. Data General (734 F.2d 1336 (9th Circuit, 1984)) held that Data General’s refusal to license its copyrighted computer software to those who did not purchase its hardware was an unlawful tying arrangement. Note that Cupertino, CA is in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals so it applies directly to Apple. Apple insists that California law be used to resolve disputes with the EULA. The EULA states:

12. Controlling Law and Severability. This License will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of California, as applied to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California between California residents…..

So a 9th Circuit Court decision will come into play where ever the case is heard.

No where in Dyne vs Data General does it state that the defendant (Data General) has to be a monopoly. Even if Apple has only 0.00001% of the computer market, the tying restriction applies. This is not good for Apple and their lawyers will have to argue around the Dyne vs Data General case.

I'm not a lawyer but...
Well it could still be relevant, the case was in 1984 so it's overruled by any legislation introduced since then. Including revision to the copyright act.

There is also the other question of relevance did the PayStar seek a license from Apple?
Does the case give Paystar any right to abuse an existing license or only some basis to push for talks on a new License for them.
 
I wonder if there is any validity to an argument that Apple doesn't actually sell complete licenses with their $149 version of the OS, and what you're actually buying is an upgrade license. Pystar is installing an upgrade OS and essentially bypassing/cracking the portion of the install that checks for a previously licensed copy.

I laughed when Steve made his speech about Leopard costing so much less than Vista, because the way I see it, when I buy a new mac, a large portion of that is me paying for the OS, because its certainly not the hardware.. so for $149 all I'm getting is an upgrade, since I've already bought one complete license.

You could easily figure that a stand alone copy of OSX costs around $350, and Pystar isn't buying that. If I started a line of computers, but only bought upgrade versions of Vista and used cracks to make them work, I'd be in a lot of trouble.
 
I think this thread should be closed now.

Too many times have people said "THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN" or "YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG".

Seems like the discussion has turned into a rant.... :(
 
Sounds like a lot of hassle to save a few bucks.

Support? It's like buying a computer from a guy in a white van.

Haha, I was just thinking the same thing. :rolleyes:

It never ceases to amaze me how these strange people seem bent on running OSX in any way possible other than on an Apple. I've even seen these stupid tutorials on how to make a PC look like a mac (as in both physically and in the GUI), and it's become some kind of creepy obsession.
 
Haha, I was just thinking the same thing. :rolleyes:

It never ceases to amaze me how these strange people seem bent on running OSX in any way possible other than on an Apple. I've even seen these stupid tutorials on how to make a PC look like a mac (as in both physically and in the GUI), and it's become some kind of creepy obsession.
There are also people who build car kits to make a modern car look like a vintage one, or people who build complex modern gaming systems into old arcade cabinets.

People have the right to choose their own aesthetics, and it is not creepy.
 
I wonder if there is any validity to an argument that Apple doesn't actually sell complete licenses with their $149 version of the OS, and what you're actually buying is an upgrade license.

As stated also earlier on in the thread, the argument is not valid, at least not in a technical sense. The retail versions of OS X do not check for the presence of an earlier version in any way. I've made a few installations on hard disks which have never previously had OS X – let alone any other operating system – on them, and as the rest of the hardware has been compatible (a genuine Mac fulfilling the system requirements), there haven't been any problems with the installation.
 
PS: Someone needs to tell Magnumvonmac and Eric.S to calm down, sit back and broaden their perspective. Then once they've understood other people's arguments on here they should comment, rather than rejecting them outright.

Um, what did I say that makes you think I should calm down?

Actually I checked out of this discussion a while back, when people started spinning off detailed legal theories. First I'm no lawyer so I won't pretend to be an expert, and second, it's all just handwaving until Apple decides to take some action. Until then I think the real story is Psystar as a company and the OpenComputer as a product. Can Psystar actually deliver this product in quantity? Can they support the hardware reasonably? Can they adequately handle the upgrade issue? Will they fix problems like the noisy fans in future revisions? And will other companies think it's worth the risk to make a similar product? Those questions are what interest me, because until Apple makes a move there is not much point in legal speculation.
 
I'm suprised that Apple hasn't done anything yet. Maybe they're waiting a while until there are a lot of computers out there, then make Psystar either pay for returning the computers, or let users get a free copy of Windows for it.

It'll be like the whole Kodak Instant Camera vs. Polaroid thing... :eek:
 
That's basically the whole argument. The question is whether or not a breach of an EULA is Sufficient Grounds (coffee store) for legal action or simply a denial of service/warrantee.

At least... that's what I think it's about. I'm not reading all of the defenders' rants and critics' pans.

Excuse my slightly harsh reply but, OMG, how old are you??? Your response sounds like something a teenager would say. You can agree to chew only one flavor of gum a company makes, but if you decide to break the agreement and chew a different flavor the company can sue you. It's not about how small the issue is (in your mind) it's about breaking agreements that can be taken up in court of law and courts do not look at Apple vs. Psystar and just slap Psystar on the wrist and say, "Shame on you", they would have to pay damages to Apple.
 
Haha, I was just thinking the same thing. :rolleyes:

It never ceases to amaze me how these strange people seem bent on running OSX in any way possible other than on an Apple. I've even seen these stupid tutorials on how to make a PC look like a mac (as in both physically and in the GUI), and it's become some kind of creepy obsession.

:rolleyes:

Jeez, your judgemental attitude and your name-calling is what's kinda creepy here.
 
Will they fix problems like the noisy fans in future revisions?

You know, I just don't get why computer manufacturers even bother with the meager cost savings instead of using a nice quiet fan. I bought something with a noisy fan, and I just unscrewed it, unplugged it and replaced it with another that cost a grand total of $5.

So for the sake of saving $1-2 on a $300, the manufacturer took the chance that I'd return it. Fortunately for him and me, I could fix it (or else I wouldn't have had the nice gadget. :( ).

Penny wise and pound foolish... these Psystar guys really should mind certain p's and q's--it's not like it's real money to do so.
 
I still say this is just a covert operation by Apple to test just how big the "middle" market is. The one they don't have an offering for.

But that's probably just wishful thinking.
 
two points

I'm not the first to make this point;
but say apple takes psystar to court and somehow loses; could you imagine how much psystar could sell there 2bit operation for? maybe to dell or hp? Rudy from psystar would be a rich man;

on a side note; i have heard mixed reviews of psystar support (still think it was misleading for them to say you can install a retail version of os x when you can't) but over on the psystar forums customers have reported the CEO rudy personally phoning them to resolve tech issues.
 
I'm not the first to make this point;
but say apple takes psystar to court and somehow loses; could you imagine how much psystar could sell there 2bit operation for? maybe to dell or hp? Rudy from psystar would be a rich man;

He'd get absolutely nothing. Mainstream computer makers really need the support of OS maker for support reasons. The judgement would really come down to if a smaller, basement type or the end user has the right to install Mac OS X against the wishes of Apple. Pystar as a computer company is insignificant. What is significant is the issues it brings up.

on a side note; i have heard mixed reviews of psystar support (still think it was misleading for them to say you can install a retail version of os x when you can't) but over on the psystar forums customers have reported the CEO rudy personally phoning them to resolve tech issues.

Not uncommon with smaller companies. I had several conversations with the CEO of Velocity Micro when I was trying to decide what I wanted in a desktop.
 
I'm not the first to make this point;
but say apple takes psystar to court and somehow loses; could you imagine how much psystar could sell there 2bit operation for? maybe to dell or hp? Rudy from psystar would be a rich man;

Why? If Apple loses in court, it wouldn't mean that Psystar would have exclusive OSX distribution rights, why wouldn't Dell or HP just set up their own ops? Why would they be interested in a two-bit Florida outfit?
 
You don't see a monopoly because you aren't looking in the right direction. You are comparing operating systems to other operating systems. We're talking about a monopoly on HARDWARE that will run OSX specifically. It doesn't matter if OSX is a small quardrant in the larger Microsoft ocean. We're talking about Apple making boatloads of money because by in their little quadrant, they are the only ones allowed to provide fishing boats AND they get all the fish. Thus they make money off both the fish caught and selling the fishing boats. No one else is allowed to sell fishing boats in their small quadrant of the ocean. Microsoft cannot sell fishing boats (hardware) in the ocean without having to allow others to sell them also. Thus competition for fishing boats (hardware) is alive and well in that part of the ocean even if they still get all the fish. Apple may be a small part of that ocean, but they get ALL the fish in that part and sell ALL of the fishing boats. The problem is that selling fishing boats and selling fish are TWO DIFFERENT BUSINESSES and you CANNOT artificially tie them together and prevent competition in one area from the other area.

IN other words, Apple's OSX is competing against Microsoft's Windows. Apple's hardware is competing against??? The answer is NO ONE because NO ONE else is ALLOWED to compete against their hardware running OSX. THERE is the legal problem and it's why Apple will lose in court.

Responding to the bolded part, I think you are missing the practicality of the situation. There is nothing artificial about tying OS software to a computer, or iPod OS to the iPod, or cell phone software to the cell phone. It is practical and reasonable to do so, and not artificial or intentional abuse at all. I think such practicality will ultimately win out. Apple makes a product, and is trying to make a buck selling that product. I think at the end of the day, that will be respected.

Consider something that could happen that is very similar with cars. Say Ford developed this unbelievably amazing stereo system for their cars. They do the R&D, invest in technology heavily for years and years to develop this stereo. When they finally release it, it is hugely successful, and they start to sell many, many cars, because of this stereo. Now GM gets pissed because they are losing sales, and they want the same stereo. They offer to buy some from Ford, and Ford says no. Are you telling me that Ford should be forced to sell these stereos to GM, because they have created a monopoly of these stereos and "artifically tied two products together"? Really?

So let's say Ford is forced to offer the stereos to GM. Ford says, OK, they are $30,000 each. Is that illegal? Are you going to tell me that Ford should be forced to sell them, and can not name whatever price they want? After they made the investment in R&D, they can't control the distribution (in their cars), or the price? Really? Because I don't see what is stopping Apple from selling full-instals of OS X for generic hardware for $1000 or $10,000 if these clones start hurting them.

This is what I am hearing in this thread. It is disturbing, very disturbing. It sounds like something I would expect to hear in communist China, not the USA. If Apple can't control the distribution of their own product, and is forced to license it against their desire, it will have a profound impact on business in this country, and their willingness to invest in new R&D.

And sure, here comes the obvious defense (in a whiny tone): but we're not talking about stereos, we are talking about software, so it is different. Is it? People want the Apple software on the hardware of their choice. Apple did the R&D on the software, and now is attempting to control the distribution so they can profit from their investment. I see absolutely no difference.
 
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