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I don't mean to be short with you here, but re-read the logic. It's rock solid. They continue to sell "upgrades" for $129. I would imagine the "upgrades" could be sold with absolutely no difference than the current OS X discs - just a different licensing arrangement.

your logic is flawed. why would anyone buy those discs at 1000 a pop? the licenses sure arent stopping people now are they?? lol:rolleyes:

the people that want osx on their pc hardware will do so not at 1000 discs but at the 129 disc if not torrented somewhere else.

get my point? its not rock solid

there is like nothing seperating apple hardware from pc hardware and that is the problem

your solution ONLY works if ALL people respect licenses......clearly they dont and thats what you fail to realize
 
I don't mean to be short with you here, but re-read the logic. It's rock solid. They continue to sell "upgrades" for $129. I would imagine the "upgrades" could be sold with absolutely no difference than the current OS X discs - just a different licensing arrangement.

??? If Psystar ignores the current license, what keeps them from ignoring the "different" license? If the "upgrade" is no different from the current OS X disc, then they just buy upgrades.

Meanwhile, Apple sells separate HW and SW, with the SW costing $1000? So the I buy an Apple box and install a $129 "upgrade" on it and bypass the $1000 OS cost? I'm sorry, it's not making any sense.
 
your logic is flawed. why would anyone buy those discs at 1000 a pop? the licenses sure arent stopping people now are they?? lol:rolleyes:

the people that want osx on their pc hardware will do so not at 1000 discs but at the 129 disc if not torrented somewhere else.

get my point? its not rock solid

there is like nothing seperating apple hardware from pc hardware and that is the problem

I don't disagree with what you are saying - of course the OS X86 community would still be hacking it and doing it for $129. My guess is that companies like Phystar would still attempt to do the same and profit from it.

The point of my post was that with the strategy I outlined, Apple would have the absolute legal basis to shut these things down. If you check the previous 15 pages of this thread, that is a status that is not quite certain with the current licensing by Apple.
 
??? If Psystar ignores the current license, what keeps them from ignoring the "different" license? If the "upgrade" is no different from the current OS X disc, then they just buy upgrades.

Meanwhile, Apple sells separate HW and SW, with the SW costing $1000? So the I buy an Apple box and install a $129 "upgrade" on it and bypass the $1000 OS cost? I'm sorry, it's not making any sense.

Did my previous response to duke clear it up? I am not describing a technique to prevent pirating. I am describing a strategy to shore-up their legal position to do it.
 
I don't disagree with what you are saying - of course the OS X86 community would still be hacking it and doing it for $129. My guess is that companies like Phystar would still attempt to do the same and profit from it.

The point of my post was that with the strategy I outlined, Apple would have the absolute legal basis to shut these things down. If you check the previous 15 pages of this thread, that is a status that is not quite certain with the current licensing by Apple.

i still dont agree

clearly apple has worded the current eula to say that osx CAN ONLY RUN on apple hardware. otherwise why would they put that in there to begin with??

if apple cant shut "these things down" now, what makes you think they will be in the future.....another separate licese...i dont think so

the problem with eulas is that they cant really be enforced.

another issue with your logic.

say it did work...which it wont by the way, what if there was a seperate osx for pc as you described. whats preventing me from building a pc or buying one with the intent to put osx on it but instead of ordering it with the 1000 dollar version, i simply dont buy osx at the time and go ahead and buy the cheaper upgrade disc seperate and install from that. if the disks were identical, i gurantee that this is what would happen
 
i still dont agree

clearly apple has worded the current eula to say that osx CAN ONLY RUN on apple hardware. otherwise why would they put that in there to begin with??

if apple cant shut "these things down" now, what makes you think they will be in the future.....another separate licese...i dont think so

the problem with eulas is that they cant really be enforced.

another issue with your logic.

say it did work...which it wont by the way, what if there was a seperate osx for pc as you described. whats preventing me from building a pc or buying one with the intent to put osx on it but instead of ordering it with the 1000 dollar version, i simply dont buy it at the time and go ahead and buy the cheaper upgrade disc and install from that. if the disks were identical, i gurantee that this is what would happen

So you are really going to argue that it is not legally possible to enforce an upgrade pricing policy? I beg to differ. As to you last point - I am not saying that this would prevent piracy as you described - it would just give Apple the clear legal basis to shut it down.
 
So you are really going to argue that it is not legally possible to enforce an upgrade pricing policy? I beg to differ.

do you really not see what im saying??:confused:

by all means, solve apple's problem and present this idea to them lol. im sure their legal team just hasnt seen the light yet

as i said, say psystar sells mac osx compatible computers and say they did charge 1000 for osx. what if i decline the os, just get the box and then simply install osx from the upgrade disc?

however as i said, apple cant enforce the eula as is with it EVEN saying only to be used on apple computers. if they cant enforce that, what makes you think they can enforce another eula that deals with osx for pc's??

by your logic, they should have the LEGAL RIGHT to shut it down now...but they cant as it seems
 
Did my previous response to duke clear it up?

No.

I am not describing a technique to prevent pirating. I am describing a strategy to shore-up their legal position to do it.

It's really unclear. Are you saying that when I pay, say, $1500 for an Apple computer, Apple is going to maintain that $500 of that is for HW and $1000 for the OS? And that, further, Apple will insist that you cannot buy them separately? Because I think that would put Apple in a tougher position - someone is going to say that they only want to run Windows on the HW, and sue Apple claiming that it's an unfair practice to force users to buy SW they don't want. And if Apple is forced to sell cheap HW that will totally blow their bottom line, and everyone will run OS X on it anyway illegally.
 
do you really not see what im saying??:confused:

by all means, solve apple's problem and present this idea to them lol. im sure their legal team just hasnt seen the light yet

as i said, say psystar sells mac osx compatible computers and say they did charge 1000 for osx. what if i decline the os, just get the box and then simply install osx from the upgrade disc?

however as i said, apple cant enforce the eula as is with it EVEN saying only to be used on apple computers. if they cant enforce that, what makes you think they can enforce another eula that deals with osx for pc's??

by your logic, they should have the LEGAL RIGHT to shut it down now...but they cant as it seems

I do see what you are saying. I am not even disputing it. I totally agree that people would keep on pirating it. Yes, Apple should and does have the legal right to shut it down. Because they have the legal right to sell and price their OS as they see fit.

I believe that Apple can legally enforce an upgrade pricing policy, just as any other software company that sells full versions and upgrade versions of software can. Would it be Apple's problem if you don't like the full-price for running it on generic X86 hardware?
 
No.



It's really unclear. Are you saying that when I pay, say, $1500 for an Apple computer, Apple is going to maintain that $500 of that is for HW and $1000 for the OS? And that, further, Apple will insist that you cannot buy them separately? Because I think that would put Apple in a tougher position - someone is going to say that they only want to run Windows on the HW, and sue Apple claiming that it's an unfair practice to force users to buy SW they don't want. And if Apple is forced to sell cheap HW that will totally blow their bottom line, and everyone will run OS X on it anyway illegally.

I'm sorry - I guess I cut straight to the punch a little too fast. First, assume that Apple's strategy is to shut-down any legal loopholes that might exist as described in the 1st 15 pages of this thread. Second, assume that they are going to do this by actually licensing a full version of OS X exclusively for generic X86 hardware, that they don't really intend to sell to anyone (or at least not sell that much of it). They could:

1. Continue to sell Macs with OS X exactly as they do now. With OS X pre-installed and licensed to that machine.

2. Price the generic OSX86 full OS X software at $1000 and sell it "as is" with no support, just as the Phystar or OSX86 hacks are delivered now.

3. Continue to sell the "upgrade" discs for $129, just as they do now with the current OS X retail box.

They would then be offering a legal way to obtain a seat of OS X for generic hardware, just not at a price that anyone likes. This gives them the legal basis to shut the phystars or OSX86 projects down, who are installing "upgrade" versions, when clearly the full version is legally required, while maintaining total control of the hardware that the OS is sold on.
 
So, you are prepared to pay a Windows Vista Ultimate price for OS X, then? Or maybe we should demand that MS stop selling crippled versions of Vista, and only sell Vista Ultimate. Better yet, we should demand that MS sell Vista Ultimate for $129 (and family packs for $199), because otherwise it is selling cheap clone software for 2-3x what it's worth.

Well, let's do the math, shall we? I could put together a PC for around $700 total (heck add a decent graphics card to Psystar one even) that blows away every single Mac out there for gaming and 3D and at least equals or betters all but the top iMac in every other category save the MacPro (heck look at the test results of the Psystar one; it does too already with a decent graphics card) and so even if I had to pay $500 for MacOSX (now at the $1200 mark or about $1100 for the Psytar with graphics card), I'd STILL be at *HALF* the price of the cheapest available MacPro and nearly as much with the newest custom iMac 24" (costs over $2000).

So you want my honest opinion. BRING ON the Vista Ultimate pricing IF that means I can put it in whatever PC hardware I choose!!! It's STILL loads cheaper than being forced to buy $2000+ PCs. I don't NEED 4 or 8 CPUs. I need good graphics and fast hard drives! I don't know how much more plain I can make it to show that Apple's prices are STILL insane compared to the PC market despite what some claim. Sure IF you match identical hardware, etc., but how many actually NEED Firewire for example? Look at the PC market. They get alone fine without it.

I've got it on this PowerMac Digital Audio and I don't use it. I put in a Sata card instead and two internal 500GB hard drives that run faster than FW400 can handle. USB3 is coming as soon as next year and it'll blow away FW800 and the prototype FW3200 to boot (USB3 is 10x faster, FW3200 is only 4x faster and thus Firewire is DEAD the day USB3 comes out). Even Apple doesn't use Firewire in their latest gadgets (iPhone, newer iPods and AppleTV). Apple has a history of pushing non-standard hardware and charging a premium for it while often denying standard hardware (e.g. this PowerMac didn't have USB 2.0 with it because they wanted to push Firewire at the time so I had to add it in with a 3rd party card myself in order to use Apple's own iPod Touch with it at a reasonable speed).

The point is Apple is hardly qualified to decide what their customers NEED or WANT. So many of you seem to think otherwise or think the consumer should adapt to Steve's desires for you. Yet you see the same threads over and over again about people dreaming of a mid-range mini-tower Mac so they can use and promote 3D graphics cards that are STANDARD everywhere else in the world. Now that Apple uses standard Intel hardware, the days of having to pay 2-3x as much for the SAME graphics card the PC world uses SHOULD be over, but they still limit compatibility even with the MacPro so Apple can sell you and overpriced version and make money off the otherwise standard ATI/Nvidia hardware and THAT is what I and many others have a problem with. Macs should sell because they're BETTER not because some small percentage of their users like to feel elite by using esoteric hardware. Some of us thought those days were finally gone with Intel. Clearly, Apple wants to artificially keep their profit margins high, yet they are clearly also losing many switcher sales by not offering competitive hardware to the PC World. The switcher market potential is ENORMOUS, especially right now considering how unpopular Vista is. Apple is also making money hand over foot from iPods and iPhones. There has never been a better time for them to either open up the MacOSX to standard hardware and/or make a deal with someone like Dell to offer models built-to-order (within driver constraints) to make a push for dominance over the next 5-10 years. Apple needs to stop thinking drain existing users by overcharging them and start thinking try to beat Microsoft while their pants are down!
 
No, not without hacking.

That's not a hardware limitation. It's an artificial EFI check. Otherwise, the "hardware" (and I emphasize HARDWARE) is just generic PC stuff with Intell CPUs.

You're right, they should. And they do. Plenty of people decide that macs with OSX either are too expensive or not good enough and buy PCs. Why do you keep forgetting that 95% of people still buy PCs?

I'm not forgetting. Why would you say I'm forgetting except that you don't comprehend what I'm saying in the first place? Only a fanboy would say "if you don't like it, go buy a PC! We don't need you anyway!" It's elitist and it's bullcrap. If I wanted a PC (more correctly to say if I wanted Windows) I'd go buy a Windows machine. That simply does NOT change the fact I shouldn't have to buy some crappy POS iMac or Macbook that has no graphics capability or pay over $2000 for one that almost every $700 PC out there has in it! What part of that don't you get, exactly? They're forcing you buy overkill (MacPro) or an all-in-one (iMac) with no expansion capability JUST to get good 3D graphics. That limitation has NOTHING what-so-ever to do with MacOSX. It only has to do with their limited hardware offerings and overpriced "force you to buy the next model up because something is missing" policies. They're shortchanging themselves and potential switcher users by being nearsighted. No, you don't have to agree, but don't act like an elitist "we don't need you" fanboy either. This has nothing to do with you. It has to do with my computing needs and my desire to not pay through the nose for hardware I don't need to get something simple like a decent graphics card that I DO need. If Apple offered what I needed at a REASONABLE price, I wouldn't feel the need to cheer on hacked clones.

The American way is the company can pick their product and their price.

Here, I thought their computers were made in China now like everyone else. Don't you mean the Chinese way? Oh wait, the Chinese way is also to rip off and resell goods regardless of copyrights. Oh the irony of moving factories to China....

And the American way is that the customer can decide that they don't like their product and price, and buy something else. Nobody is getting screwed over

That's what I want to do, buy something else hardware wise. The Operating System should have NOTHING to do with the hardware and in this case it does not save Apple putting artificial checks in to force you to buy THEIR hardware at inflated prices. Yet people like you don't think that sounds unfair in the slightest. I guess you enjoy getting ripped off and paying 2x as much. Hey, if you're going to hand out money for nothing, I can give you a post office box to start sending some to.

- if someone thinks buying a product is getting screwed, and they buy it anyway instead of buying something they are happy with, they're an idiot.

You keep saying apple "forces you" to do things...what, is Steve Jobs coming to your house and putting a gun to your head?

Let's see. I'm happy with standard clone hardware but unhappy with Vista. I'm happy with OSX, but unhappy with their hardware/price combinations as discussed above. According to YOUR logic, I should buy nothing and STILL be unhappy. According to my logic, I'll support so-called 'illegal' clone makers and push for Apple to lose in court. But that's been my argument all along. You are the one telling me there's something wrong with that. In fact, your argument boils down to give Apple your money and shut up or go buy a PC and shut up. Sorry, but that's fanboy logic and not worth a red cent.
 
I'm sorry - I guess I cut straight to the punch a little too fast.

...

They would then be offering a legal way to obtain a seat of OS X for generic hardware, just not at a price that anyone likes. This gives them the legal basis to shut the phystars or OSX86 projects down, who are installing "upgrade" versions, when clearly the full version is legally required, while maintaining total control of the hardware that the OS is sold on.

The first sentence of that paragraph is where the logic takes a path that you forget to explore. Apple would be providing a path in which they would agree not to dispute what is going on, which, perhaps, also happens to be a legal way.

However, just because that is the way that Apple would want to do does not make it illegal to do it some other way. It may still be perfectly legal for other parties to do something that Apple would prefer they did not.

If the pricing structure a priori makes Apple's offer unacceptable--which is the structure that you are trying to figure out here--then the courts may well decide that Apple did not act in good faith, and protect the right of third parties to circumvent Apple's intentionally unacceptable offer.

So, no, I don't think the logic is particularly tight there, but you know what they say... I'm not a lawyer. :D
 
I pretty much agree with MagnusVonMagnum (see above if you dare) - I keep hoping Apple will come out with a nice mid range ATX computer that doesn't cost an arm and a leg although I must admit my G3 is 8 years old & going strong and OS X is nice ...
 
The first sentence of that paragraph is where the logic takes a path that you forget to explore. Apple would be providing a path in which they would agree not to dispute what is going on, which, perhaps, also happens to be a legal way.

However, just because that is the way that Apple would want to do does not make it illegal to do it some other way. It may still be perfectly legal for other parties to do something that Apple would prefer they did not.

If the pricing structure a priori makes Apple's offer unacceptable--which is the structure that you are trying to figure out here--then the courts may well decide that Apple did not act in good faith, and protect the right of third parties to circumvent Apple's intentionally unacceptable offer.

So, no, I don't think the logic is particularly tight there, but you know what they say... I'm not a lawyer. :D

That may very well be the case too. I also am not a lawyer, so I couldn't say for certain. But you would be suing Apple because you don't like the price they set, rather than over their rights to require installation only on Apple hardware. That seems like a much more difficult case to make. The reason I am saying it is rock solid is because it seems pretty obvious that an upgrade pricing offer is legally enforceable (its used universally with software), whereas the opinion around here seems to be that requiring installation on Apple hardware is not.
 
4. It is not illegal to re-sell goods in Florida. PsyStar is buying legal copies of OSX and reselling them. As long as the goods are not stolen or are counterfeit, Psystar can sell all the copies of OSX they want. Apple will have to go to court and convince a judge that PsyStar should not be allowed to buy Apple products at full retail and then sell them to an end user. Miami and Orlando are full of retailers who sell grey market goods that are not "authorized" retailers for the brands that they sell (cameras come to mind - Nikon, Canon, etc all have strong greymarket channels). While Apple might prevail, it will be a tough fight for them.

5. For those who insist on stating that PsyStar's actions are illegal, please quote the Florida or Federal statute that they are violating

Title 17 of the US Code. OS X is copyrighted by Apple. They -- and they alone -- get to say who replicates the code. And Title 17 does indeed carry criminal penalties (as do the various international treaties enforcing copyright).

Yes, PsyStar is selling Leopard disks. But PsyStar is installing the software on the computer. It doesn't matter if the OS X disk itself is resold: PsyStar cannot legally install the software on a machine since they don't hold the copyright. Now somebody will quickly point out that used Macs are sold all the time by end-users. True. But the only companies that have made a business of reselling used Macs have been (with minor exceptions) authorized Apple dealers. Apple isn't going to waste legal manpower going after individuals. Companies that infringe on its copyrights ... now that's a different matter. Apple didn't go after the hackintoshes largely b/c they were hobbyists and individuals.

10. I for one will wait and see what action Apple takes (if any) against PsyStar and will wait for a court to rule on PsyStar's activity. Until then they call sell all the OSX loaded computers that they want to.

I'm fairly certain Apple will take legal action. Copyright, patent, and trademark holders must "vigorously" protect their rights lest they pass into the public domain. As I poster earlier on this thread, I am certain that there are Apple software engineers and lawyers poring over the installed system and EFI code on a PsyStar as we type ....
 
Title 17 of the US Code. OS X is copyrighted by Apple. They -- and they alone -- get to say who replicates the code. And Title 17 does indeed carry criminal penalties (as do the various international treaties enforcing copyright).

Yes, PsyStar is selling Leopard disks. But PsyStar is installing the software on the computer. It doesn't matter if the OS X disk itself is resold: PsyStar cannot legally install the software on a machine since they don't hold the copyright.

What does "installing" have to do with a "copyright" ? Yes, a copy of sorts is being made onto the hard drive, but that is how it's designed to function and it is not identical to the install disc even on a 'proper' Macintosh. The install discs are designed to be installed, not to run directly and thus installing is NOT a copyright violation of any kind. Sorry, but your argument is just plain wrong. The only violation Psystar has to worry about is breaking the Eula which forbids installing it on non-Apple hardware (which has been discussed before in the thread and legally is in limbo since even lawyers agree this sort of thing has not been decided in court yet). The OSX included is purchased and is legal in that sense and no copyrights have been broken. You cannot dispute that because it's a simple fact. People in this thread have said you cannot buy a retail copy of OSX but that is blantantly false. Best Buy sells it right on the shelf just like Vista. Only the Eula and Apple's use of nonstandard Bios (using EFI instead of Bios) and artificial hardware checks are the only reason it won't run directly on any standard PC hardware.

Apple saying you must buy OUR generic hardware to run OSX is like the Mafia saying you MUST buy THEIR oranges to make orange juice. It's wrong, pure and simple. If Apple hardware is so much better than generic clone hardware then let the people decide if they want to buy their hardware from Apple. Don't force it on them. If OSX is undervalued, then let them charge more for it and let the market decide if that was a smart move. They could even have a second version for standard hardware that costs more than the version for their specific hardware. Offering no solution while forbidding others to create one is a monopoly strategy. What monopoly? The monopoly for running OSX, that's what. OSX is a separate product from Apple Hardware. When they decided to use standard clone hardware they decided that OSX is separate from the hardware it runs on. When the Justice Department wanted to split Microsoft into separate companies for mere SOFTWARE reasons because they thought the OS and other products like the browser are two distinct areas that Microsoft was using their status to leverage/force onto the market using one to force the other, it demonstrated the danger a company faces if it creates two markets that are mutually exclusive (i.e. it would be like a highway paving company creating a road that could only be driven using cars made by the same company). Apple is a publicly traded company. It makes publicly used computers, often forced upon you in educational institutions. As Macs become more commonly used in business, you will be forced to use them there as well. The issue of publicly available Operating System being tied to only one hardware vendor (the same one that makes the OS) will NOT go away. It will only get more and more volatile should Apple's market share increase.

Some of you don't see an issue purely because you view Apple as a small fish in a large ocean (i.e. small market share compared to Microsoft), but what you fail to see is that you are comparing two different areas. OSX and Windows are both operating systems and therefore they are competing with each other BUT the hardware they run on are for all functional purposes identical but you have one vendor (Microsoft) that makes their OS available for anyone's hardware while the other (Apple) is saying that for OSX, they are going to be the SOLE provider of generic clone hardware. Thus, they are creating a market for OSX that only has one company providing hardware (theirs). They have artificially created a monopoly for OSX by shutting out all hardware vendors. THAT is an anti-trust violation, pure and simple. They are NOT competing with other companies on a hardware basis. They are competing with Microsoft on a software basic, but they are a vendor of hardware also which has them competing with all hardware PC makers (business reports even compare their laptop sales versus Dell, etc.) The problem is that they DO offer OSX as retail (again you can buy it at Best Buy by itself) but they artificially keep Dell and other hardware makers from competing on their OSX market.

THAT is the SAME thing in hardware terms as Microsoft saying to Dell that they will not sell them Windows in volume discounts IF Dell chooses to sell Linux pre-installed on their hardware as well, which immediately makes their hardware uncompetitive versus someone selling similar equipment but charging a fraction of the cost for the OS. That was what got Microsoft into trouble. They were leveraging their Operating System status (as something you NEED to have in business, etc.) to force another business to limit their sales to only one operating system. Apple is using their status (as the maker of the operating system) to force a retailer to either sell their hardware with OSX or only sell OSX at retail and worse yet, not be able to install it on their hardware even at full retail price. It's the same basic thing. Apple has an operating system they're leveraging to force their hardware sale instead of competing with other hardware makers selling the SAME BASIC HARDWARE (clone technology).

And THAT is why Apple will *LOSE* BIG TIME in court. You cannot create an open operating system environment sold at retail outlets and then tell people what generic PC they can and cannot run it on. Just imagine if Microsoft said that Halo for the PC could only be legally installed on DELL computers because they made a deal with Dell to get kickback profits (like Apple did with AT&T with the iPhone). YOU have the same basic hardware as Dell but you bought it from Lenovo. So now you can't run Halo NOT because it won't run on your computer but because the EULA says if you click YES you've legally sworn you're using Dell hardware. CAN YOU EVEN IMAGINE the legal outrage that would occur if Microsoft or someone did something like that? It's artificially limiting a market so others can't compete. It's straight out of a Mafia movie. And yet that is EXACTLY what Apple is doing by making both the OS and the hardware, selling the OS separately at places like Best Buy and yet artificially keeping it from running on otherwise nearly identical hardware.

I'm fairly certain Apple will take legal action.

I hope they do because they will lose. You cannot artifically corner two markets by creating an artificial barrier to 3rd party competition. The courts ordered Microsoft to give various information about internal hooks in Windows to 3rd party vendors so their secondary products (i.e. office software, browsers, email, etc.) could be JUST as functional in Windows as Microsoft's own secondary software products. If Microsoft is selling an Office suite for Windows, they must compete with other Office Suites in Windows. If Apple is selling hardware that can run an operating system, they must compete with other vendors of hardware selling operating systems. The problem is, they're not competing in the same ocean. They say THEIR ocean is a monopoly (i.e. only THEIR hardware can run OSX. No one else's hardware is allowed to compete) but like Microsoft Operating System VERSUS an Office Suite, they are TWO DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT MARKETS and therefore must allow other competition. If the courts make a distinction between an Operating System and a Web Browser even, they sure as heck would make a distinction between an operating system and the hardware it runs on.

What if Microsoft said Apple is not allowed to run Windows on Macintosh hardware? There goes the advantage of Boot Camp, Parallels, Fusion, etc. They CANNOT say that. It'd be illegal to single them out when the hardware is generic PC hardware that beyond the Bios is otherwise IDENTICAL. But yet some of you are telling me it's NOT illegal for Apple to tell Dell that they cannot buy and install OSX on THEIR hardware. Maybe you want to argue Apple is the majority leader in the Operating System market so it doesn't matter, but it does because OSX is a market unto-itself as far as hardware goes and Apple is the only player in that market. By selling OSX separate from the hardware (again they do), they have admitted to creating a new OS market where Apple is the only hardware player. It doesn't allow competition for OSX hardware and therefore it is in violation of anti-trust laws.
 
Title 17 of the US Code. OS X is copyrighted by Apple. They -- and they alone -- get to say who replicates the code. And Title 17 does indeed carry criminal penalties (as do the various international treaties enforcing copyright).

Yes, PsyStar is selling Leopard disks. But PsyStar is installing the software on the computer. It doesn't matter if the OS X disk itself is resold: PsyStar cannot legally install the software on a machine since they don't hold the copyright. Now somebody will quickly point out that used Macs are sold all the time by end-users. True. But the only companies that have made a business of reselling used Macs have been (with minor exceptions) authorized Apple dealers. Apple isn't going to waste legal manpower going after individuals. Companies that infringe on its copyrights ... now that's a different matter. Apple didn't go after the hackintoshes largely b/c they were hobbyists and individuals.



I'm fairly certain Apple will take legal action. Copyright, patent, and trademark holders must "vigorously" protect their rights lest they pass into the public domain. As I poster earlier on this thread, I am certain that there are Apple software engineers and lawyers poring over the installed system and EFI code on a PsyStar as we type ....


Well, let's get a little more specific than "Title 17 of the US Code says". Chapter 1 section 106 state that the Exclusive rights of a copyright holder are:

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

No where does it state that a copyright holder can tie their software to a specific platform. Perhaps I missed it, please point me to the specific statute that you are refering to.

Your statement "PsyStar cannot legally install the software on a machine since they don't hold the copyright." is flawed. By this logic only Apple can install the software. All those persons who buy OSX for their Apple hardware are 'illegally' installing it as they don't own the copyright - Apple does. Apple doesn't sell you the copyright when you buy your copy of OSX - they grant you a license to use the software.

PsyStar has purchased such a license from Apple when they buy a retail copy of OSX. You are confusing a violation of Title 17 with a contractual dispute of the EULA. PsyStar has not violated Title 17 at all. No one will prosecute them under Title 17. So if you still believe PsyStar has violated Title 17, please quote the exact chapter & section that they have violated.

So we are back to a breech of contract civil action. In order for Apple to prevail they will have to convince a court that tying OSX to Apple-labeled only hardware is legal and an enforceable term of the EULA.

From chuckjuhl’s post:

http://www.news.com/newsblog/5208-10784_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=37002&messageID=400303&start=0

“Psystar's claim that Apple is acting as a monopoly is not without some merit, and probably grounded in a judgment rendered by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth District in the case of DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General ( 734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984)) which held that Data General?s refusal to license its copyrighted computer software to those who did not purchase its hardware was an unlawful tying arrangement, and this was not over-turned by the U.S. Supreme Court.”

Clearly Apple has a tying issue that their lawyers will have to find a way around. Can Apple restrict who 'distributes' their software? They can try but PsyStar will claim that they are simply transfering the license they bought to an end user under the terms of the EULA which permits such a transfer.

Apple has done nothing to the OSX86 group for the last two years. This may be a problem for Apple under the legal concept of latches. PsyStar may argue that since Apple has not taken ANY action whatsoever against the group that they can not now take action against PsyStar for doing the same thing i.e. not complying with the Apple-labled only hardware terms of the EULA.

And so far, Apple hasen't sued anyone for loading OSX on a non-Apple-labled computer. We will have to wait and see what Apple chooses to do.
 
What does "installing" have to do with a "copyright" ? Yes, a copy of sorts is being made onto the hard drive, but that is how it's designed to function and it is not identical to the install disc even on a 'proper' Macintosh. The install discs are designed to be installed, not to run directly and thus installing is NOT a copyright violation of any kind. Sorry, but your argument is just plain wrong.

Apple is the copyright holder. And as such, Apple -- and Apple alone -- gets to determine how its copyrighted material is distributed. Period. Black-letter law. This is why the principle of EULAs, though not necessarily given specifics of the aforementioned, are legally binding. This is all fairly straight-forward, basic copyright law.

If you're so positive I'm wrong, buy a DVD copy of Star Wars, edit in your own footage, and try to sell the resulting film online. Record a rendition of you and your best friends singing "Happy Birthday" and sell it to others through a brick and mortar store (without paying royalties to the copyright holder). Patch together parts of three different copyrighted books and sell them as an omnibus edition. In each case, you'll soon find yourself being served with papers by the copyright holders. I remind you that six publishers successfully sued Kinko's for selling photocopied coursepacks that included as little as 14 pages of copyrighted material. And you think the federal courts will rule in PsyStar's favor?

The EULA sets forth the restrictions by which Apple, owner of the copyright, permits use of its copyrighted material. Microsoft does the same thing with their OEM licenses. Problem is, Apple doesn't offer any OEM licenses. Thus, what PsyStar does violates Title 17 of the US Code. PsyStar might stand on slightly better legal ground were it simply to include an Apple-manufactured DVD copy of Leopard with each machine rather than installing it on the machine for the end-user. Unfortunately, as PsyStar's computer is presently structured, the end-user can't install OS X by him/herself. PsyStar themselves admits this. And thus, by installing the OS on a machine they manufacture, PsyStar is illegally distributing Apple's copyrighted OS (and before aoresteen jumps in here with his grey market example, may I point out that just because others are breaking the law with seeming impunity does not mean that you aren't in violation -- it just means that for whatever reason the law/trademark holder/etc. is not pursuing the others).

Apple has no monopoly -- not with less than 10% of the OS market. And even if it did, it still could define who gets to sell its OS without running afoul of US anti-trust legislation. Where Microsoft erred was in abusing its monopoly position by bundling applications with its OS and then stating the offending application (Explorer) couldn't be unbundled from the system. MS is perfectly within its bounds right now to deny Dell access to its OEM licenses for Windows. They'd be crazy to do so, however, b/c Dell pays MS royalties for each copy of Windows it sells (as well as paying for the bulk license). Note that PsyStar isn't paying Apple any royalties -- it's just tossing in a copy of OS X that they bought from somebody -- a copy that Apple, as evidenced by its EULA, clearly intended to be something other than an OEM license.

Do I wish Apple's hardware was a little less expensive? Sure. Do I wish that Apple offered a headless iMac other other minitower? Yes. But as somebody who works with and profits from IP, I also see the bigger picture: copyright holders get to determine who profits from their intellectual property. Heck, this is so fundamentally American, it's even written into the Constitution (Art. I, Sec. 8). That is the principle I'm defending. And that is what PsyStar would have to overcome in any legal case.

ETA:
Your statement "PsyStar cannot legally install the software on a machine since they don't hold the copyright." is flawed. By this logic only Apple can install the software. All those persons who buy OSX for their Apple hardware are 'illegally' installing it as they don't own the copyright - Apple does. Apple doesn't sell you the copyright when you buy your copy of OSX - they grant you a license to use the software.

Exactly -- Apple offers you a license, a license which is governed by the EULA. The courts have yet to rule EULAs are, in and of themselves, illegal. However, the courts have repeatedly ruled that copyright holders can attach all sorts of qualifications to the licenses they grant.

PsyStar's problem is that it is operating as an OEM here -- installing an OS for profit (that last part is the key). Apple doesn't offer an OEM license; the OS X EULA as written specifically states it's a consumer license. Basic Books, Inc. v. Kinko's will certainly apply here -- and PsyStar will lose. You can't sell somebody else's copyrighted material for profit without the express permission of the copyright holder. Period. This is a fundamental principle of copyright law. It's so fundamental that lawyers don't even debate it -- instead, they debate what constitutes "fair use." Were PsyStar to sell a generic PC that just happened to be able to run OS X and also sell boxed retail copies of OS X, they might be able to get away with selling their Open machines. But because they actually have to install OS X for the end user, they run afoul of Title 17.

And so far, Apple hasen't sued anyone for loading OSX on a non-Apple-labled computer. We will have to wait and see what Apple chooses to do.

Because, until PsyStar came along, nobody has tried to sell an unauthorized copy of OS X on a hackintosh. It's the sale of an unauthorized machine containing OS X that's the key issue here. And if Apple wants to continue to hold its copyright to OS X, they are required by law to contest infringement lest the IP pass into the public domain. Trust me, Apple will sue. They have no choice.
 
??? If Psystar ignores the current license, what keeps them from ignoring the "different" license? If the "upgrade" is no different from the current OS X disc, then they just buy upgrades.

Meanwhile, Apple sells separate HW and SW, with the SW costing $1000? So the I buy an Apple box and install a $129 "upgrade" on it and bypass the $1000 OS cost? I'm sorry, it's not making any sense.

The concept of charging $1,000 for OSX for clones is not without merit. What is does for Apple is it gives a basis for a damages claim.

If PsyStar buys the $129 version of OSX instead of the $1,000, loads it and sells it to a consumer, Apple has lost $871. Now when Apple sues they can argue that the clone builder cheated them out of $871. As it stands right now Apple is getting every dime they asked for.

The court would decide if the the damages claim is reasonable.
 
Apple is the copyright holder. And as such, Apple -- and Apple alone -- gets to determine how its copyrighted material is distributed. Period. Black-letter law. This is why the principle of EULAs, though not necessarily given specifics of the aforementioned, are legally binding. This is all fairly straight-forward, basic copyright law.e.


We are getting a bit closer but you are still way off base. First Apple does NOT get to determine how its copyrighted material is distributed. Read Title 17 Chapter 1 Sections 107-122. There are all kinds of exceptions to distributions - Fair use, schools, libraries, etc. The LAW determines what exclusive rights Apple has and Apple has to subject it's IP to those laws. It's not as cut-and-dried as you state.

The Star Wars Example is a Non sequitur argument. George Lucas does have the right to control derivative works; in my post I listed the exclusive rights that Title 17 grants, number two is the one you are referring to:

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

PsyStar is not selling multiple copies of OSX from a single copy. Your example does not apply. Each and every copy of OSX they sell comes with an Apple license that is being transferred to the end user under the terms of the EULA.


You do mention the EULA so you must now agree that there is no Title 17 violation and that it is a contractual issue between the parties.

Apple doesn't have to have a monopoly to have its EULA tying clause tossed out. Read DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General (734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984)).

You state "Apple doesn't offer any OEM licenses. Thus, what PsyStar does violates Title 17 of the US Code.". Once again, what EXACT section of Title 17 are you referring to? Try to understand that the issue here is a term of the EULA which is a contractual issue, not a criminal issue.

As for grey market <sigh>, please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

What the dealers are doing is LEGAL. It's not that they are just getting away with it.

The Supreme Court ruled on grey market goods in 1998. They said that according to the "first sale" doctrine, once a copyright owner places a copyrighted item in the stream of commerce, it has no further right to control its distribution. Thus any lawful purchaser of such products may dispose of them as they please without further obligation.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/96-1470.ZS.html

Basic Books, Inc. v. Kinko’s does NOT apply. PsyStar is NOT making multiple copies of OSX and selling them. They pay Apple for EACH and EVERY copy that they transfer to an end user. Kinko copied stuff from Basic Books and published it as their own, claiming Fair Use. Does not apply here. Read the case:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/basicbooks.html

PsyStar isn't going to be charged with a violation of Article I section 8 of the US Constitution. Article 1 Section 8 gives the Federal Government the power to create certain laws. Why is that relevant to the issue of a contract dispute between Apple and PsyStar? Are you saying that PsyStar will challenge the constitutionality of the copyright laws?

You don't seem to grasp the key point here. You state "until PsyStar came along, nobody has tried to sell an unauthorized copy of OS X on a hackintosh"

Every copy of OSX that PsyStars sells/tranfers is a legitimate, licensed copy. It's the terms of the EULA that is in question. It matters not whether the box is built or sold - the license is for the END USER and whether or not the EULA is enforceable.

There is no copyright issue in this case, no Title 17 violation. It is a licensing contractual dispute between Apple and ANYONE using OSX on a non-Apple labeled computer. Perhaps I've missed something in Title 17, show me the exact section and I will take a look at it.
 
Very impressed with the thoroughness and eloquence with which you have stated your view that I share completely. I am a supporter and owner of Apple and its products but what Apple is doing to maintain its position as the exclusive seller of OSX machines is in my opinion clearly an anti-trust violation.


What does "installing" have to do with a "copyright" ? Yes, a copy of sorts is being made onto the hard drive, but that is how it's designed to function and it is not identical to the install disc even on a 'proper' Macintosh. The install discs are designed to be installed, not to run directly and thus installing is NOT a copyright violation of any kind. Sorry, but your argument is just plain wrong. The only violation Psystar has to worry about is breaking the Eula which forbids installing it on non-Apple hardware (which has been discussed before in the thread and legally is in limbo since even lawyers agree this sort of thing has not been decided in court yet). The OSX included is purchased and is legal in that sense and no copyrights have been broken. You cannot dispute that because it's a simple fact. People in this thread have said you cannot buy a retail copy of OSX but that is blantantly false. Best Buy sells it right on the shelf just like Vista. Only the Eula and Apple's use of nonstandard Bios (using EFI instead of Bios) and artificial hardware checks are the only reason it won't run directly on any standard PC hardware.

Apple saying you must buy OUR generic hardware to run OSX is like the Mafia saying you MUST buy THEIR oranges to make orange juice. It's wrong, pure and simple. If Apple hardware is so much better than generic clone hardware then let the people decide if they want to buy their hardware from Apple. Don't force it on them. If OSX is undervalued, then let them charge more for it and let the market decide if that was a smart move. They could even have a second version for standard hardware that costs more than the version for their specific hardware. Offering no solution while forbidding others to create one is a monopoly strategy. What monopoly? The monopoly for running OSX, that's what. OSX is a separate product from Apple Hardware. When they decided to use standard clone hardware they decided that OSX is separate from the hardware it runs on. When the Justice Department wanted to split Microsoft into separate companies for mere SOFTWARE reasons because they thought the OS and other products like the browser are two distinct areas that Microsoft was using their status to leverage/force onto the market using one to force the other, it demonstrated the danger a company faces if it creates two markets that are mutually exclusive (i.e. it would be like a highway paving company creating a road that could only be driven using cars made by the same company). Apple is a publicly traded company. It makes publicly used computers, often forced upon you in educational institutions. As Macs become more commonly used in business, you will be forced to use them there as well. The issue of publicly available Operating System being tied to only one hardware vendor (the same one that makes the OS) will NOT go away. It will only get more and more volatile should Apple's market share increase.

Some of you don't see an issue purely because you view Apple as a small fish in a large ocean (i.e. small market share compared to Microsoft), but what you fail to see is that you are comparing two different areas. OSX and Windows are both operating systems and therefore they are competing with each other BUT the hardware they run on are for all functional purposes identical but you have one vendor (Microsoft) that makes their OS available for anyone's hardware while the other (Apple) is saying that for OSX, they are going to be the SOLE provider of generic clone hardware. Thus, they are creating a market for OSX that only has one company providing hardware (theirs). They have artificially created a monopoly for OSX by shutting out all hardware vendors. THAT is an anti-trust violation, pure and simple. They are NOT competing with other companies on a hardware basis. They are competing with Microsoft on a software basic, but they are a vendor of hardware also which has them competing with all hardware PC makers (business reports even compare their laptop sales versus Dell, etc.) The problem is that they DO offer OSX as retail (again you can buy it at Best Buy by itself) but they artificially keep Dell and other hardware makers from competing on their OSX market.

THAT is the SAME thing in hardware terms as Microsoft saying to Dell that they will not sell them Windows in volume discounts IF Dell chooses to sell Linux pre-installed on their hardware as well, which immediately makes their hardware uncompetitive versus someone selling similar equipment but charging a fraction of the cost for the OS. That was what got Microsoft into trouble. They were leveraging their Operating System status (as something you NEED to have in business, etc.) to force another business to limit their sales to only one operating system. Apple is using their status (as the maker of the operating system) to force a retailer to either sell their hardware with OSX or only sell OSX at retail and worse yet, not be able to install it on their hardware even at full retail price. It's the same basic thing. Apple has an operating system they're leveraging to force their hardware sale instead of competing with other hardware makers selling the SAME BASIC HARDWARE (clone technology).

And THAT is why Apple will *LOSE* BIG TIME in court. You cannot create an open operating system environment sold at retail outlets and then tell people what generic PC they can and cannot run it on. Just imagine if Microsoft said that Halo for the PC could only be legally installed on DELL computers because they made a deal with Dell to get kickback profits (like Apple did with AT&T with the iPhone). YOU have the same basic hardware as Dell but you bought it from Lenovo. So now you can't run Halo NOT because it won't run on your computer but because the EULA says if you click YES you've legally sworn you're using Dell hardware. CAN YOU EVEN IMAGINE the legal outrage that would occur if Microsoft or someone did something like that? It's artificially limiting a market so others can't compete. It's straight out of a Mafia movie. And yet that is EXACTLY what Apple is doing by making both the OS and the hardware, selling the OS separately at places like Best Buy and yet artificially keeping it from running on otherwise nearly identical hardware.



I hope they do because they will lose. You cannot artifically corner two markets by creating an artificial barrier to 3rd party competition. The courts ordered Microsoft to give various information about internal hooks in Windows to 3rd party vendors so their secondary products (i.e. office software, browsers, email, etc.) could be JUST as functional in Windows as Microsoft's own secondary software products. If Microsoft is selling an Office suite for Windows, they must compete with other Office Suites in Windows. If Apple is selling hardware that can run an operating system, they must compete with other vendors of hardware selling operating systems. The problem is, they're not competing in the same ocean. They say THEIR ocean is a monopoly (i.e. only THEIR hardware can run OSX. No one else's hardware is allowed to compete) but like Microsoft Operating System VERSUS an Office Suite, they are TWO DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT MARKETS and therefore must allow other competition. If the courts make a distinction between an Operating System and a Web Browser even, they sure as heck would make a distinction between an operating system and the hardware it runs on.

What if Microsoft said Apple is not allowed to run Windows on Macintosh hardware? There goes the advantage of Boot Camp, Parallels, Fusion, etc. They CANNOT say that. It'd be illegal to single them out when the hardware is generic PC hardware that beyond the Bios is otherwise IDENTICAL. But yet some of you are telling me it's NOT illegal for Apple to tell Dell that they cannot buy and install OSX on THEIR hardware. Maybe you want to argue Apple is the majority leader in the Operating System market so it doesn't matter, but it does because OSX is a market unto-itself as far as hardware goes and Apple is the only player in that market. By selling OSX separate from the hardware (again they do), they have admitted to creating a new OS market where Apple is the only hardware player. It doesn't allow competition for OSX hardware and therefore it is in violation of anti-trust laws.
 
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win.... your still retarded.... :p



hahaha you guys are intense..... I have to say I am now convinced that apple's system is a total monopoly... :(
 
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics, even if you win.... your still retarded.... :p



hahaha you guys are intense..... I have to say I am now convinced that apple's system is a total monopoly... :(

I must say, that the opening line actually made me laugh out loud! That being said, i disagree. please don't attack me for this anyone, but no matter what people say, i still think apple can determine what their software runs on, because they are selling hardware and software. That's it, my $.02
 
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