First Hand with Mac OS X on Toshiba Intel (x86)

[EricNau]

The same is true with just about every other electronics device. I might love the design of the Moto RAZR V3, but hate the software. I might want to install the Sony Ericsson or Nokia UI in the RAZR, but this is not an option and neither do I feel that my choices as a consumer are limited because of this.

When Apple decided not to OEM the OS, they made it rather plain that Apple is about the total user experience. Jobs has gone as far as to say that Apple is not about making the most obscene amount of money as quickly as possible. To be sure, they will grow their market with the Mac mini and other entry-level machines, but they will do so while remaining true to their ideals.

The iPod, iTunes, and iTunes Music Store integration is often cited by Jobs as an example of delivering a complete user experience. I, for one, do NOT want to see Apple commoditize their operating system.

very well put, I totally agree

 

[Marble]

The same is true with just about every other electronics device. I might love the design of the Moto RAZR V3, but hate the software. I might want to install the Sony Ericsson or Nokia UI in the RAZR, but this is not an option and neither do I feel that my choices as a consumer are limited because of this.

When Apple decided not to OEM the OS, they made it rather plain that Apple is about the total user experience. Jobs has gone as far as to say that Apple is not about making the most obscene amount of money as quickly as possible. To be sure, they will grow their market with the Mac mini and other entry-level machines, but they will do so while remaining true to their ideals.

The iPod, iTunes, and iTunes Music Store integration is often cited by Jobs as an example of delivering a complete user experience. I, for one, do NOT want to see Apple commoditize their operating system.

For what it's worth, I agree with the argument as I've been following it back and forth through the thread. This is what makes Apple special.

 

[chatin]

Needs "blessing!"

OSX does not run well on x86 hardware, and will only do so with Apple's "blessing."

 

[contoursvt]

Ok, I know you're exaggerating for effect, but why say 4x more? The Apple premium for similar specs tends to be about 20%. You can pay $2000 (and more) for PC laptops as well as $500. It's just that Apple don't have $500 laptops.

Hi Plinden, Ok I admit I was blowing it out of proportion but I happen to like desktop systems and not one that closes me in. I took Apple's dual 2Gig dual core system, configured it with a 7800GT, 1 gig ram, 250gig drive and the price came out to nearly $3100 canadian $$.

I then went to a local PC shop and looked up their price list and configured the following for about $1650 - almost 1/2 price:

-Intel dual core 2.8Ghz P4
-1gig DDR2 memory
-Asus motherboard
-7800GT video card (PCI-E)
-16x dual layer burner
-250 gig SATA drive
-Antec P180 case with antec 380W supply
-Logitech silver/black keyboard
-Logitech MX510 mouse
-XP pro OEM

To have the option to build what I think is a comparable system for say 1/2 price and maybe run OSX on there if that is an option is great. The above system is by no means ugly or a poor performer either. I kind of like the P180 antec case http://image.donanimhaber.com/resimler/P180_antec.jpg

Now granted this is an option for those who are computer savvy, and likely, the majority of people would go buy a dell or HP and not get quite this kind of system for the $$, but if someone does have the ability to build their own, its still 1/2 price.

 

[mileslong]

this is just wrong

 

[fluidinclusion]

Totally

SINCE WHEN!? Every PC I have EVER starte up takes at least 2 minutes and then once you see the actual desktop, it takes another minute before you can actuallt begin to start an Application. My iMac G5 goes from pressing the power button to first App in under 50 seconds!

Agreed, but that is because of the corporate virus/spyware/networking/firewall crap that MUST be on all real world XP machines. They're very slow here at the university, while the Macs are quite fast to boot and use.

 

[DeathChill]

Agreed, but that is because of the corporate virus/spyware/networking/firewall crap that MUST be on all real world XP machines. They're very slow here at the university, while the Macs are quite fast to boot and use.

Definitely. My 3.6 GHz P4 boots up OS X in approximately 10-20 seconds to the desktop where I can actually perform tasks. That includes the grey screen right to where the desktop is usable.

 

[fluidinclusion]

Actually,...

This is an urban legend. I always owned PCs and Macs at the same time and also always owned about the same amount of computers for each platform. As long as you are buying good PCs for a similar price compared to the Macs, the percentage of machines with technical problems is even lower.

To talk about the Mac side during the last few years (just the machines with problems)...

PowerBook G3 (Wallstreet):
LCD had to be changed twice because of uneven illumination.

iMac G3 (one of the last ones sold):
Monitor wiring problems after 8 weeks (red didn't work anymore). Had to be repaired (warranty).

iBook G4:
Trackpad doesn't work properly anymore. Built-in microphone is dead. No repair since it happened right after the warranty ended. Replacement too expensive! So it stays like this...

PowerMac G4 (Quicksilver):
Several fans had to be replaced over the time (bearing damage due to low quality parts used, the old ones were noisy like hell anyway...). The original 40GB HD was dead after two years as well.

During the same period of time none of my PCs ever had any problem. My current Windows XP Laptop was a lemon though. Motherboard, LCD and keyboard had to be replaced one-by-one during the first few months of heavy usage. Since then it runs flawlessly... And since it has a "3 year bring in warranty" I am not too worried about it. Macs only have 12 months... except you are shelling out an additional few hundred bucks for Apple Care...

So please, stop the legend, that PCs are of inferior hardware quality. It is just not true... Also other people I know owning Macs had at least as many hardware problems with their machines as the average Joe Sixpack with his Windows-PC.

Regards,

groovebuster

You're right on cheap PCs vs. Good PCs. HOWEVER. If you look at Educational Macs vs Educational Dells, even of similar price, the Dells have historically sucked because they are DIFFERENT than the non-educational Dells. All the Macs are the same components. I can say that 90% of the educational Dells I've seen (about 20 of them) have had outright hardware failures (video cards, hard drives, cd drives, etc.). Home Dells I've seen or business Dells were problem free, however.

 

[Cinch]

Ranting and anxious

I don't know the future of OSX holds, however I'm well aware of my current situation.

I'm using a Dell Optiplex 2.6Ghz w/ 1Gig of RAM and Window XP Professional at work. I have to restart this computer almost everyday, now I'm talking about pulling the plug restart! Please someone help get a gun and shoot this thing pieces!


Our budget is really tight now, and getting a new computer would probably not be in the near future.

-Cinch

 

[contoursvt]

I don't know the future of OSX holds, however I'm well aware of my current situation.

I'm using a Dell Optiplex 2.6Ghz w/ 1Gig of RAM and Window XP Professional at work. I have to restart this computer almost everyday, now I'm talking about pulling the plug restart! Please someone help get a gun and shoot this thing pieces!


Our budget is really tight now, and getting a new computer would probably not be in the near future.

-Cinch

I have a dual 1.25 G4 at work which freezes half the time when its printing and needs to be restarted like 3-4 times a day so whats your point

 

[SiliconAddict]

I don't know the future of OSX holds, however I'm well aware of my current situation.

I'm using a Dell Optiplex 2.6Ghz w/ 1Gig of RAM and Window XP Professional at work. I have to restart this computer almost everyday, now I'm talking about pulling the plug restart! Please someone help get a gun and shoot this thing pieces!


Our budget is really tight now, and getting a new computer would probably not be in the near future.

-Cinch

You Dell Optiplex it a perfectly fine computer. This coming from someone typing on one and who manages an office of aprox 100 of them. (Plus another 50 or so laptops.) In 4 years with this desktop in our office I've had one. Count em ONE system having problems with the hardware.
You are equating problems with your computer with its hardware when you should be pointing at the software. I've been in more IT shops that are completely freaking clueless as to how to configure a Windows computer. How to manage and deploy patches. How to manage your Anti-virus, firewall, and anti-adware software. Most places are clueless and simply use the default desktop "image" the comes with the system. Never bothering to roll their own. Tweaking it for their environment. Etc. In your case I will bet you $10 that your hardware is fine. You software is another matter.

 

[contoursvt]

I think people forget how complicated computers are. Its not like a toaster or kettle or anything. If you think of what the computer is actually doing, I'm amazed its anywhere as reliable as it is!!

 

[Cinch]

You Dell Optiplex it a perfectly fine computer. This coming from someone typing on one and who manages an office of aprox 100 of them. (Plus another 50 or so laptops.) In 4 years with this desktop in our office I've had one. Count em ONE system having problems with the hardware.
You are equating problems with your computer with its hardware when you should be pointing at the software. I've been in more IT shops that are completely freaking clueless as to how to configure a Windows computer. How to manage and deploy patches. How to manage your Anti-virus, firewall, and anti-adware software. Most places are clueless and simply use the default desktop "image" the comes with the system. Never bothering to roll their own. Tweaking it for their environment. Etc. In your case I will bet you $10 that your hardware is fine. You software is another matter.

I'm not saying it's a hardware problem nor am I saying it's a software problem. You are right, most people do not care what their computer do inside. They just want it to work and do their work. I'm one of those. I'm sorry if I offended those care to so much of such things as Service Pack 2 and partitioning a harddrive. I'm just thinking out loud here: Why do I need to partition my harddrive again? Aren't we pass the DOS days?

 

[Cinch]

I think people forget how complicated computers are. Its not like a toaster or kettle or anything. If you think of what the computer is actually doing, I'm amazed its anywhere as reliable as it is!!

You are absolutely right. We live in a very complicated world where just about everything we use are a product of some very complicated manufacturing process. Most of us do not know how modern furnitures are made, but we feel perfectly fine using them. What about high strength steel that holds buidings upr? What about the process that is involve in printing a newspaper? The point I'm trying to make is (and please understand that I'm not directing this personally at you although your reply seems to be directing at me) we can thrive in a complicated world even if we know very little details of everything around us.

 

[mugwump]

duh

mileslong -- funny!



Anyhow, hey über dorks -- who gives an effin' shiite how long it takes to boot up your system? I see this "benchmark" on ZDNet and I just want to puke.

I reboot this powermac once a month if I have to, depending on system updates, and every two months for my wife's ibook.

To jack off about the startup times of a system startup is about as useful as how long it takes to tie your shoes in the morning, 10 seconds or 50 seconds? "Oh, my laces take just a few seconds since my boots are now velcro!" Dorks.

 

[contoursvt]

You are absolutely right. We live in a very complicated world where just about everything we use are a product of some very complicated manufacturing process. Most of us do not know how modern furnitures are made, but we feel perfectly fine using them. What about high strength steel that holds buidings upr? What about the process that is involve in printing a newspaper? The point I'm trying to make is (and please understand that I'm not directing this personally at you although your reply seems to be directing at me) we can thrive in a complicated world even if we know very little details of everything around us.

Thats very true but a news paper or the building support or modern furniture is not an open system where you can alter the material it was made with or the process it was created in. You can do that with a computer. You can go ahead and replace files in the OS with other ones, you can go delete things. You can go and download a virus (maybe like termites) .. all those things. I'm going to make a very stupid analogy now:

Imagine surfing and viruses ... I think its very close to walking with a wooden chair in the forest and parking it where ever you want. Some places may look like it could have pests (porn sites, pirate sites, free download music sites..etc). Some people will avoid that. Some dont care and might go and check it out. Same thing as taking your wooden chair and plunking it down beside what you might think could be a termite nest but you're not sure...but you dont care so you sit there for a while. You go home and a few days later you see that your chair is being eaten away... oh no and now they are spreading to your other furniture. This really sucks, but can you really blame the chair??? Its why some people can have zero probs and some have probs all the time. I think its about taking precaution.

I have the most unreliable car on earth according to review sites (I drive a Ford Contour SVT) but its gone 240,000KM now, doesnt burn any oil, I'm on my original fuel pump, original transmission..etc. I drive the think hard but I also listen for noises like wheel bearings. I change them before they get really bad. If I hear funny clunks, I check it out before it leads to someting going really wrong. Small bits of effort and time saving me major headache later. I run synthetic oil in the engine and transmission too (Actually saved my engine once because I drove over a big rock and it smashed the drain plug off and I went nearly 2 KM before i realized that I was out of oil!!! Oil light on and nothing in the pan. Engine is still good because I put the effort into better oil.

I dont know. Maybe my techie side just loves to tinker with everything and thats why I dont mind any of this.

 

[Cinch]

I dont know. Maybe my techie side just loves to tinker with everything and thats why I dont mind any of this.

well said

my daily rant is over

 

[contoursvt]

well said

my daily rant is over

LOL I'm done for the day too... All that rambling I did. Its like a freaking novel.

 

[Evangelion]

Are you running MS Office? My boot time went up considerably, if I recall correctly, after installing Office.

(Anyway, this is off topic.)

Just upgraded to Office 2003, as it happens.

 

[matix]

You are absolutely right. We live in a very complicated world where just about everything we use are a product of some very complicated manufacturing process. Most of us do not know how modern furnitures are made, but we feel perfectly fine using them. What about high strength steel that holds buidings upr? What about the process that is involve in printing a newspaper? The point I'm trying to make is (and please understand that I'm not directing this personally at you although your reply seems to be directing at me) we can thrive in a complicated world even if we know very little details of everything around us.

abstraction. it is a beautiful thing. How many people actually know what is going on inside their processor, inside the engine of their car, or even their own bodies! very few. It takes at least a university degree to begin to really understand these extremely complex things we use daily.

 

[sunfast]

complete user experience

The same is true with just about every other electronics device. I might love the design of the Moto RAZR V3, but hate the software. I might want to install the Sony Ericsson or Nokia UI in the RAZR, but this is not an option and neither do I feel that my choices as a consumer are limited because of this.

When Apple decided not to OEM the OS, they made it rather plain that Apple is about the total user experience. Jobs has gone as far as to say that Apple is not about making the most obscene amount of money as quickly as possible. To be sure, they will grow their market with the Mac mini and other entry-level machines, but they will do so while remaining true to their ideals.

The iPod, iTunes, and iTunes Music Store integration is often cited by Jobs as an example of delivering a complete user experience. I, for one, do NOT want to see Apple commoditize their operating system.

This sums it up for me. I am saving right now to finally make the switch from Windows - and "complete user experience" is exactly why I want an apple.

 

[ioinc]

For those that want "options," go fly a kite. If you want to switch, then you can switch on Apple's terms. If you don't like it, then stick with Windows and wear out your Ctrl, Alt, and Del keys. Your "choice," buddy; Apple will do fine without your business.

Are you the only consumer in the world that does not want options? Really?!?
You want to be limited to only one choice in everything you buy? Or is this a short-sighted ("go fly a kite") mentality that only applies to computers?

When you buy replacement tires for your car do you want to be limited to only one type of tire (because that’s all that will fit) or do you want to be able to pick and chose from different makes and models?

I am trying to figure out why some people are so averse to letting apple compete freely. Is it because they don't think enough of Apple products to allow them to win on their own merits?

Don't worry about apple…. They REALLY do put out a better machine (hardware and OS) let them prove it to the world, and in the process pick up the consumers on a lower budget that can't afford to pay a premium.

 

[TBi]

You aren't getting gouged. It costs a lot of money to develop hardware and software.

How does the thought of paying $500+ for MacOS X with product activation sound? Apple's hardware profits subsidize OS development. Without the hardware profits, Apple can't survive. And when you're paying $500 for an OS, your supposed cost savings go right out the window.

Not only that, when someone buys a cheapo PC and run MacOS X on it, and it runs poorly, guess who they're going to blame? Do you want to pay for Apple gets bad publicity for no good reason. Supporting thousands of hardware configuration costs money, again, eliminating your supposed cost savings.

Where are the advantages? There's no savings for you; what you save in hardware, you pay in software.

Personally i don't care if Dell can't sell OSX. It's apples' product and they should sell it with their hardware. Also circumventing the hardware protection OSX86 uses is against the law because of the DMCA so Dell can't do that.

I just wish Apple would leave a grey area for power users to run OSX86 on their machines (assuming they pay for it that is). Businesses would not be allowed this grey area and would have to buy an apple computer to legally run OSX86.

I'm not saying it should be legal for us to do it, just don't crack down on us or make it harder. They can crack down on massive sales (like from dell) by invoking the DMCA and suing them into the ground for it. Also for any computer store that sells the computers. The protection on the mac OS doesn't have to be strong for it to be illegal to break and most people who would buy an expensive mac will either still buy one or still HAVE to buy one.

Also anyone who wants to set up OSX on a computer for their family will more than likely get them compatible hardware because they will have to deal with all the heart ache if something goes wrong.

 

[mdavey]

I just wish Apple would leave a grey area for power users to run OSX86 on their machines (assuming they pay for it that is).

One way to do this could be to allow power users to sign up for a beta program ("Apple PowerBeta Connection" or somesuch). Once signed up, customers could get a beta copy of the current development OS without new features (that is, the current OS plus bug fixes and certain new hardware drivers, but not some of the cool in-development stuff like FrontRow or Photobooth).

This beta version would be provided under NDA and perhaps contain digital watermarks of the beta customers' account number but not contain the copy-protection features of the released version, so it could be installed on 3rd party hardware. Beta customers might be expected to report crashes (including providing diagnostics such as log files) but wouldn't be elegible for Apple support (by whatever means, including at the Genius bar). Apple would make a big deal about beta software not being production quality and not suitable for use in production environments.

 

[ioinc]

How does the thought of paying $500+ for MacOS X with product activation sound? Apple's hardware profits subsidize OS development. Without the hardware profits, Apple can't survive.

Yeah! No company could just survive on software profits alone!