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My query was about the disdain for commercials that go a long way to pay for the content they want to watch. The reality is it would cost you a hell of a lot more than Apple currently does if commercials were not covering the lion's share of the costs
Commercials have become lying tripe to trick people into stupidity. I avoid them at all costs. When a big TV exec said, 'there's some leeway for going to the bathroom' when he was questioned about his statements calling people that don't watch commercials thieves, my opinion was solidified. Are you Jamie? Call me a thief, go ahead. And then drop off.

Nobody has made a realistic comment yet about this topic, all this ranting about people's opinions and attempts to low-ball or high-ball the potential a la carte market, good lord....Here is what is being ignored:

The big 4 "free" networks already have a pay-for a la carte on-demand system, if people want it. It is called Hulu Plus, and is $8/month for all 4, with both commercials and delays. This announcement is a prelude to CBS pulling out of that, I presume. They've never really been part of it as they are not an owner of Hulu, the browser links go to cbs.com.

So, $6 for just one is ridiculous, based on their own past history. Not based on some thought randomly bouncing around my head. 🙄

This new system does offer "live" (really just "on-time" with broadcast timing), but I'd like to see actual user reviews on the quality, because whenever I've used their on-demand streaming, it has been atrocious. To the point where I just gave up trying to catch up if I miss an episode I want to see. One episode isn't that important in life, anyway. And frankly, I don't agree that streaming on-time recorded shows should be more expensive than streaming a day or a week later.

I have a no-longer-available $10/month Tivo account, and that lets me make sure I can watch any big 4 shows I want. With commercial skipping. That plus Netflix is working ok for me.
 
Are you saying that the commercials are subsidizing the cost Apple is charging you to buy the episodes? I feel the commercials subsidizes the FREE OTA not the Apple Purchase. The CABLE companies also pay the networks a lot of money for the right to re-transmit.

As a comparison, Netflix charges $8 (now $9 for new) for their entire catalog including the hugely successful House of Cards, Orange is the New Black and more. All without commercials. They can do this because they have 50 million people paying that monthly fee. HBO is also doing that with all of their content including original programming all without commercials but with a higher monthly fee. I assume because the movies are more current then Netflix. My point is the more people subscribe the more money available to pay for good content. For me Commercials takes a lot away from my enjoyment and their should be a reasonable price available to be able to get network should without commercials. And I do not what to BUY the season through Apple or Amazon.

Remember this all started with CBS wanting to charge $6 per month and also include commercials. I said it appears you can also FF through the commercials but I was not sure and ask others if they have found out that to be true.

Also, you may not be familiar with DISK Hopper where you can skip commercials but I think only after 7 days from air (I think). Again, more options to SKIP Commercials.

I just do not understand why you are against this option being available. I would think that having millions of people paying a monthly fee would provide more money to the networks to provide even better and more content.

Yes and no.

Commercials go to offset the costs Networks pay to studios to license the rights to broadcast shows. But remember, their are ads within the shows themselves... That is called product placement. There are companies that lobby hard to get their products into shows. You might not think of that as a commercials, but they basically are. A lot of those product placement goes to offset the costs of producing said content.

So in a way the $2-$3 you pay per episode on iTunes is also offset by ads/sponsorship of shows.

Studios/networks really make their money for syndicated shows. They make even more silly money from Amazon and Netflix which buy entire catalogues of shows and not few seasons like network affiliates do.

The reason they are showing ads for online subscription for recent shows (remember, no ads for older content) is the actors, directors, writers etc have to get paid (per their guilds guidelines) for every TRANSMISSION of that show in each market. $6 for an entire channel is really not covering that.
 
Are you saying that the commercials are subsidizing the cost Apple is charging you to buy the episodes? I feel the commercials subsidizes the FREE OTA not the Apple Purchase. The CABLE companies also pay the networks a lot of money for the right to re-transmit.

All the revenue gets totaled up in the end. If you have 12 revenue streams and Stream #7 starts disappearing are you going to go, "Well, I guess I'm making less revenue now" or are you going to try and increase revenue from the remaining 11 streams to make up for the loss of Stream #7?

To another poster's point, from a company perspective if they are shifting gears it's in oder to make more money, not less money (or the same amount of money) so they will fiddle with the revenue streams until they hit their numbers. At least with ad supported content this typically means adjustments are made between the content creators and the advertisers. For subscription services this typically means an increase in prices. 10 years from now the price of ad-supported, OTA TV will still be free, but the price of streaming services is only going to go up.


As a comparison, Netflix charges $8 (now $9 for new) for their entire catalog including the hugely successful House of Cards, Orange is the New Black and more. All without commercials. They can do this because they have 50 million people paying that monthly fee. HBO is also doing that with all of their content including original programming all without commercials but with a higher monthly fee. I assume because the movies are more current then Netflix. My point is the more people subscribe the more money available to pay for good content. For me Commercials takes a lot away from my enjoyment and their should be a reasonable price available to be able to get network should without commercials. And I do not what to BUY the season through Apple or Amazon.

This is an oversimplification but I think the wide disparity in numbers is still relevant. In 2013 66 billion dollars was spent on airing TV commercials in the U.S. alone (everything from local TV car ads to Super Bowl commercials). That's a lot of revenue to amass one $8 subscriber at a time. Advertisers are also a Network's biggest business partners and source of revenue so I'd be surprised if CBS cut them out of a new business venture like this.

Netflix and Amazon have the advantage of knowing how much content is worth before buying it. By that I mean, they know which movies/shows were successful and which ones weren't. Yes, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc., are generating some original content but it's a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the amount of licensed content they distribute. On the other hand, Warner Brothers, CBS, FOX, Discovery, etc., are creating tons of original content and taking many more financial risks in doing so.

I just do not understand why you are against this option being available. I would think that having millions of people paying a monthly fee would provide more money to the networks to provide even better and more content.

I don't think anyone is against a commercial free option (I haven't seen anyone go "Yes!, I love commercials! Gimme more commercials!"). What I'm seeing is people trying to explain why commercials will continue to exist.


Did you miss my point, or just ignore it? We *already* pay, it is just a hidden cost in everything we buy. If people paid for what they actually wanted instead of having to pay for everything, the crap would not get produced and the average quality of programming might go up. The net cost could actually go down without that extra layer of marketing engine in the way.

People can already impact the quality of programming by viewing habits. I'm not a fan of Duck Dynasty, for example, but a whole of other people are which is why it's on one of the, if not the, most successful show in history of cable television. If the public loves crap you can't really blame companies for producing more crap.

Commercials go to offset the costs Networks pay to studios to license the rights to broadcast shows. But remember, their are ads within the shows themselves... That is called product placement. There are companies that lobby hard to get their products into shows. You might not think of that as a commercials, but they basically are. A lot of those product placement goes to offset the costs of producing said content.

So in a way the $2-$3 you pay per episode on iTunes is also offset by ads/sponsorship of shows.

Studios/networks really make their money for syndicated shows. They make even more silly money from Amazon and Netflix which buy entire catalogues of shows and not few seasons like network affiliates do.

And a streaming app with a full back catalogue impacts all of these other existing revenue streams too. For example, if with the CBS app a user can watch all the episodes of Big Bang Theory then that drives down the value of BBT in syndication and it also drives down the value of BBT for the local affiliate TV stations which pay CBS (the local TV stations people tune into to watch CBS content).

What Apple did with iTunes and selling music was pretty straight forward as the business model didn't change (only the medium and delivery method). With TV, a much more complicated business model (with many layers of business-to-business partnerships) that's been evolving into it's current state since the 1950's is being turned on it's head and that's going to take a lot more time to shake out than the music did. With that being said, I actually think the movie/TV industry is moving at a decent pace. I mean, I cut cable 5 or 6 years ago and between OTA TV, Netflix and Amazon I get to easily watch 99% of what I want to watch.
 
Like watching scandal?? With no more ads to foot the costs, how would you like paying $10-$30 PER episode to make up the difference???
They could never get away with that because people would just pirate the shows (if they aren't already).

Say what you want about it, but sometimes the fear of piracy is the only thing holding these major corporations in check.
 
sounds like they are all preparing services for apple tv.

i really want a tv channel store. 1 buck/month for a channel. do it :apple:.

I used to work for a cable company here in the UK for a spell and we offered extra channels for £1 on top of the monthly fee you were paying. I wish all operators would do this.
 
If at the end of the day, I have to pay $6 per channel AND pay for internet service, I might as well just get cable. They are going to revolutionize everything and do it ALL WRONG.

This is like CD's came out and cost pennies compared to tapes but the prices went up.

Or Kindles which cost nothing compared to actually printing, storing and shipping books, and the prices are unchanged.

Ugh.
 
I like Person of Interest, that's about it. 🙂

In that case, it might be better just to buy the series on iTunes rather then get a subscription to the CBS channel.

I myself, just wait until a series hits re-runs and probably Netflix before I end up watching it.
 
In that case, it might be better just to buy the series on iTunes rather then get a subscription to the CBS channel.
Not really. At $3 an episode on itunes that's $12 a month just for one show.
Although the last time I checked CBS's online player, the video quality was terrible.
 
$6 for a channel? Ridiculous.

I don't want the entire backlog. Let me watch CBS for 2 bucks a month and you can keep your backlog of tv shows.

If this is how internet video is going to work then it's not going to be any cheaper than current cable. I'll stick with Comcast DVR + On Demand for the foreseeable future.
 
What I would love to see is for the cable companies to start ala-carting the premium services that they do not charge customers for (or package) but that they have to pay for. Why do I have to subsidize somebody else's spectator-sports habit?

Unfortunately, they do ridiculous packages like "Sports and Entertainment". They always bundle something you want with something you do not care about. At least make the packages sensible and more fine-grained.

That allows cable operators to bring in channels that might not be profitable as a stand alone but is cost effective; especially since who wants what is highly variable so it may be that many of them simply could not stand alone but are sustainable in a bundle. In short, just as you subsidize a channel someone's likes but you ignore the same could be said for someone else relative to your channel.
 
$6 for a channel? Ridiculous. I don't want the entire backlog. Let me watch CBS for 2 bucks a month and you can keep your backlog of tv shows. If this is how internet video is going to work then it's not going to be any cheaper than current cable. I'll stick with Comcast DVR + On Demand for the foreseeable future.

That's how it will work. Nobody in the chain wants the signature benefit of some "new model" to be a massive discount for the source of the money in the chain. Nobody except some of us consumer (dreamers) wants that. Studios don't want to take the hit. The distributors (cable/satt) don't want that. Apple would much rather get 30% of $100/month than 30% of $5/month.

Should any new model take over, the cost modeling of it will be based on making more money- not less- than the existing model. If there really was 10 favorite channels for all, those 10 should cost about $1X0/month in some new model, not $5 or $10, etc.

Only us consumers keep spinning an idea of "just give me everything I want for a fraction of what I pay now". Nobody else in the chain has any motivation to deliver that.

This is like CD's came out and cost pennies compared to tapes but the prices went up.

Profit is the primary driver of major change when the players are deep-pocketed companies that likes the stable revenue flows of any "as is" model. If we want some kind of 1080p, commercial-free, everything-I-want-whenever-I-want-it model that will also maintain the motivations for the creations of new shows... all without dramatically cutting the quality of all of what is produced (down toward youtube-type quality), any "new model" will have to show a fairly clear path to the rest of the players in the chain (beyond us consumers) making MORE money. Our call for 75%, 85% or 95% discounts to what we pay now is entirely incompatible with any such motivation for them.

The most effective way to get close to the typically-stated dream is as follows:
-if the box that comes with your service has a way to customize the guide with a favorites channel list or similar, use it and put your 10 or 20 favorite channels in that guide. This will effectively hide the other 1X0 channels "I never watch" so that your guide is only showing the channels you do watch.
-commercials running on your 10-20 channels plus the other 180 you can't even see now continue to provide the subsidy that helps keep the cost of it all around where it is (kill the commercials and we kill the subsidy. That's worth about $54 per household by itself. The "commercial free" aspect of the dream would cost each of us $54/month to just make up for the commercial subsidy)
-use (or upgrade your box) so that it is a DVR. Then set that DVR up to record the shows you want to watch so that you can roughly approximate the "when I want it" aspects of the dream. This will also make it possible to jump over commercials
-augment that with a AppleTV, Roku or other box to potentially access Netflix, Hulu or other web video services for access to back catalogs of shows

The dream of wanting to get to pick a favorite 10 or so channels, getting them in 1080p HD, commercial-free and paying about 85% less than you pay now is about the same as whining about Apples prices and believing that might get Macs and iDevices for 85% off Apple's prices. Why would Apple want to do that? And thus, why would the other players in the existing cable/satt model want to do that?
 
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...The most effective way to get close to the typically-stated dream is as follows:
-if the box that comes with your service has a way to customize the guide with a favorites channel list or similar, use it and put your 10 or 20 favorite channels in that guide. This will effectively hide the other 1X0 channels "I never watch" so that your guide is only showing the channels you do watch.
-commercials running on your 10-20 channels plus the other 180 you can't even see now continue to provide the subsidy that helps keep the cost of it all around where it is (kill the commercials and we kill the subsidy. That's worth about $54 per household by itself. The "commercial free" aspect of the dream would cost each of us $54/month to just make up for the commercial subsidy)
-use (or upgrade your box) so that it is a DVR. Then set that DVR up to record the shows you want to watch so that you can roughly approximate the "when I want it" aspects of the dream. This will also make it possible to jump over commercials
-augment that with a AppleTV, Roku or other box to potentially access Netflix, Hulu or other web video services for access to back catalogs of shows.
Funny...that sounds like my current DirecTv setup. ($93/mo) 😀
 
Me too. Dish.

Nevertheless, it's how to get close to the dream in a way that works for all players right now (except Apple hasn't managed to get a cut of that satt/cable (box) revenue yet).

I also think both satt companies have long had the ability to turn channels on/and off for each account much like you can buy some (even single) channels now. They seem to have the easiest path to implementing an al-a-carte concept. So why don't they do it?

Because the deal as it's spun in every one of these kinds of threads involves us consumers calling for discounts of 80%, 90% or more of what we pay now. We seem to do the math of 200 channels for $100 = 50 cents per channel. "I" only want 10 channels, so I should have to pay only $5/month. Try cutting 95% of the revenue out of any business model and watch that business implode... might as well be clamoring for Apple to give us Apple products at 95% off... dreamed up as some kind of new business model for Apple.
 
Funny...that sounds like my current DirecTv setup. ($93/mo) 😀

How is DTV? I'm currently an Xfinity/Comcast customer, and it's way too much. I'd keep the Internet, but was contemplating DirectTV but unsure of the quality, etc...?
 
I'm in a Comcast/Xfinity area and bounce back & forth between DirecTV and Dish. While cable has made great progress over the years, I personally view Satt providers as superior in just about every way (hardware & software, UI, value, etc). From my perspective, satt players figured things out years ago that cable is just now starting to address. Cables one big advantage is broadband (internet) and sometimes VOIP Voice.

The key with satt is to flip back & forth every 2 years. This maximizes introductory rate deals so that the overall cost is much lower. You'll generally get about 12 months at special rates and then pay full or near full price for the other 12 months.

Alternatively, if you can quit a service for a few weeks, they'll often come back with introductory offers again. So, get to the end of your 24-month term, formally quit if you'd rather stay with either one of them, wait a few weeks and watch their marketing department start sending you introductory deals again. Sign right back up and you will have dramatically cut your monthly bill again.

The cord cutters will talk about OAR, netflix plus hulu, but only the OAR addresses some (a relatively small selection of) sports & local news. Hulu is not really the big 3 networks in total. And if you want lots of sports that won't show on the big 4, there's still very little choice other than a cable or satt subscription. Even the oft-spun option(?) of "special websites (for sports)" will tend to stream a feed well below HD quality.

Go to someone's house with one of the satt providers feeding them television and ask them to thoroughly show you around that option. That's a great way to judge it against cable alternatives AND any kind of cord-cutting concept.

Relative to this al-a-carte topic, see those bullets in post #63. One can set their channel guide up so that it will only show a chosen selection of channels (so if an al-a-carte dreamer would want to only have 7 or 10 or 14 channels in their perfect package, they can set up their guide so that it will only show that 7 or 10 or 14 channels). Both have good DVRs for on-demand and commercial hopping. Both actually have some streaming libraries of TV Shows and Movies on demand.

Myself? I have DISH for rich HD programming (including non-big 4 sports) + OAR antenna + AppleTV + Comcast Broadband. I don't get all of that for free or $5/month or $20/month but no one else can get all that either without resorting to some piracy, sacrificing video and/or audio quality and so on.

Personally, I think cord-cutting works right now for those who:
-are not chasing the highest quality of picture & sound for much of what they watch,
-don't care much about live sports except what they can get via local TV stations (or at somebody else's house or a sports bar),
-don't care about local television news (unless they can get it with an antenna) and/or
-don't care much about television in general (such as being interested in only a few shows or happy with shows that are (mostly) already in the can via an option like Netflix).
If one cares about live sports that won't be "given away" via local channels, watching mostly quality HD picture & sound, and much cable channel original programming without waiting days or a year or two for it to show up on something like Netflix, cord-cutting probably doesn't work for them. Nothing wrong with either option, but one shouldn't be fooled into thinking cord-cutting delivers everything they like at the quality they like it unless they really investigate and find that it can work for exactly what they watch (and for those that live with them).
 
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How is DTV? I'm currently an Xfinity/Comcast customer, and it's way too much. I'd keep the Internet, but was contemplating DirectTV but unsure of the quality, etc...?
Picture and sound quality or excellent. The DVR and Guide are excellent. The service has been excellent. From my standpoint, it's only weakness is heavy rain and snow can temporarily block signal (or snow can accumulate on the dish to block signal). That happens maybe 3-5 times a year and usually lasts less than a half hour (snow on the dish lasts till I get out there and clean it off 😀). And you have to have a clear sight line to the sat.

I have it's most basic package (no premium channels) and supplement with the aTV. They are also very good about giving credits for things to keep you happy.
Don't forget you then have to add internet cost to be able to compare to xFinity.

Edit: You summed it up nicely HobeS. I will mention I have AT&T DSL and it has been rock solid. Not as high a speed (13Mbps download) as cable but no matter how heavy the traffic is, you get the same speed. You're not sharing the pipe with anyone.
 
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I happen to live in Florida, so I never get the snow problem. Some family up north have a heater attachment http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/hot...ctv-slimline-ka-ku-hd-dish-antenna-p-999.html on the dish so they can melt the snow on demand without having to go outside.

I do get some big rain here (BIG!) but it tends to be a relatively short-term interruption. If it's raining really hard in the right area of the sky (between the dish and the satt), it can interrupt programming for a while. But as soon as the rain lightens up or quits, it comes right back. I've been in hurricanes here and could grab a peek at the weather while the eye of the hurricane passed over. And note: after the hurricane, everybody's cable was down for a couple of days but those using satt services were right back up (if they had electricity).

And nefan65, consider using an antenna for local channels or you might get them through your cable connection since you would still have broadband. A fair amount of what we watch (besides sports and some movies) does appear on the big 4 networks so we don't get much of a sense of rain issues even when it is pouring.
 
Personally, I think cord-cutting works right now for those who:
-are not chasing the highest quality of picture & sound for much of what they watch,
-don't care much about live sports except what they can get via local TV stations (or at somebody else's house or a sports bar),
-don't care about local television news (unless they can get it with an antenna) and/or
-don't care much about television in general (such as being interested in only a few shows or happy with shows that are (mostly) already in the can via an option like Netflix).
If one cares about live sports that won't be "given away" via local channels, watching mostly quality HD picture & sound, and much cable channel original programming without waiting days or a year or two for it to show up on something like Netflix, cord-cutting probably doesn't work for them. Nothing wrong with either option, but one shouldn't be fooled into thinking cord-cutting delivers everything they like at the quality they like it unless they really investigate and find that it can work for exactly what they watch (and for those that live with them).

Why the omission of buying TV shows from Amazon or iTunes?
 
Picture and sound quality or excellent. The DVR and Guide are excellent. The service has been excellent. From my standpoint, it's only weakness is heavy rain and snow can temporarily block signal (or snow can accumulate on the dish to block signal). That happens maybe 3-5 times a year and usually lasts less than a half hour (snow on the dish lasts till I get out there and clean it off 😀). And you have to have a clear sight line to the sat.

I have it's most basic package (no premium channels) and supplement with the aTV. They are also very good about giving credits for things to keep you happy.
Don't forget you then have to add internet cost to be able to compare to xFinity.

Edit: You summed it up nicely HobeS. I will mention I have AT&T DSL and it has been rock solid. Not as high a speed (13Mbps download) as cable but no matter how heavy the traffic is, you get the same speed. You're not sharing the pipe with anyone.

Great! Thanks for that. We're paying over $200/Month for what I consider fair service; pixelation on some stations still even after a support visit, and found "nothing wrong".

I'll give it a look! Hopes, also thanks for the info. I'll take all this under advisement and do some homework. Good idea on the local channels, because we'll still have XFinity Internet. There's nothing else available in my area.
 
$200/month for cableTV is a LOT unless you have some special situations. Even the non-promotional rates for SATT will not get close to that unless you have a lot of televisions in your home (each needing a box) or you have to buy every pro sports package or a couple of adult channels.

I have a couple of TVs in my home via Dish and pay about $70/month for about 200 channels. Additional TVs would have a box rental for each of them. I don't pay up for the Pro Sports packages, nor the premium movie channels. Even off promotional pricing, very rich packaging from the SATT players will get toward $120-$130/month. So unless you have a LOT of TVs to hook up or are a Pro Sports junkie where you pay up for stuff like NFL Sunday Ticket and similar, I suspect you'll find a fair amount of cost savings by switching to a SATT provider.

I recently took a good look at the Xfinity option myself. While it is far superior to how Comcast was even a few years ago, I still think the SATT players are winning on most of the variables important to consumers. Comcast's big advantage is broadband (and maybe Voice, though there are many VOIP options for Voice that will cost less than the regular price of Comcast Voice). Cable tends to not get the rain fade issue (hard rain can interrupt satt signals) but then again, when cable goes down it can be hours or days where satt tends to NOT go down. If a tree limb falls on a cable line somewhere, you can't do much about it. If a tree limb falls on your satt line, you can probably fix any problem yourself (immediately).
 
Because cord cutters usually balk when buying individual shows is mentioned. They expect an entire channel for $2.

Makes sense though not using these services really gimps the cord cutting process. I pay for seasons of shows that I like (Walking Dead, Sons of Anarchy, The Americans, Justified, etc.,) and it still comes out way cheaper than having cable.

It's kinda funny, I cancelled cable service when I moved and just never started it up again. I never intended to go w/o cable but here I am over 4 years later and I don't really miss it. Sure there are some things I miss but not enough to start shelling out monthly for it again.
 
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