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Zadillo

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2005
1,546
49
Baltimore, MD
4ish hours out of an ultraportable computer is horrible. Which leads back to the compromise issue. Apple compromised on some of the main aspects that makes a portable laptop, portable in the first place. If you have to keep charging your battery while on the go, not very portable. Only 3hrs of battery life? What will it be at 6 months?

Well, as an example, that's still better than what the Sony SZ gets with its standard battery, or even something like the Lenovo X61 with its standard battery.

The only way for ultraportables to get those 5 or 6 hour battery lifes is with extended batteries, which are larger, add more weight, and pretty much defeat the purpose of the form factor, at which point you might as well have a more typical laptop anyway.

-Zadillo

No agreement on time here:

Mossberg: Torture test with wifi on, max brightness and continuous play of music: 3 hour 24 minutes, he expects 4 hours 30 minutes with usual use.

Newsweek: Slightly less than 5 hours

USA Today: Almost 3 hours 40 minutes surfing, typing and using remote disk. 1 hour less watching a movie.

What gives? I find this range of battery results somewhat strange. Surprised none of them discussed the quality of the speaker sound or volume, only one mentioned heat was low, none gave specifics on system performance or startup time.

There's no agreement on time most likely because they were using different methodologies......... 3 hours 24 minutes with wifi on, max screen brightness and constantly playing music, meaning constand use of the hard drive, is really pretty remarkable. Usually also when you see people talking about getting 5 hours of life, it is with screens at half brightness or less, wifi off, the hard disk not being regularly accessed, etc.

The max battery lifes are usually in power saving modes, where the CPU is throttled down, screen is often at lowest brightness setting, all wireless is off, and the hard drive is idling.

-Zadillo
 

digitalbiker

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2002
1,374
0
The Road
6+ hours out of a 37 watt/hour battery? I think that would be a bit of a stretch. Usually you only see that kind of battery life with the extra large extra capacity batteries (the ones that significantly add to the weight and dimensions of "ultraportables").

Sony's ultra portable Vaio TZ gets 5 - 7.5 hrs of battery life. Weighs less than MBA, is smaller, has WWAN capability, includes an optical drive, and uses a 100 GB HDD.

The only plus for MBA is bigger screen and keyboard. Runs OS X. If one could run OS X on the Sony, I think most would buy the Sony over the MBA.
 

NYCMacFan

macrumors regular
Jun 5, 2007
161
0
well, 3.5 hours in all the reviews, and I believe both of them were with the settings maxed out. with half brightness (should be fine on an LED-backlight), and WiFi off (like on a plane), I can really see this thing rocking 4.5.

I may go with the SSD and 1.6htz processor. I assume that will yield 5 hours. Certainly if you have wifi off and reasonable brightness.

There's no agreement on time most likely because they were using different methodologies......... 3 hours 24 minutes with wifi on, max screen brightness and constantly playing music, meaning constand use of the hard drive, is really pretty remarkable. Usually also when you see people talking about getting 5 hours of life, it is with screens at half brightness or less, wifi off, the hard disk not being regularly accessed, etc.

The max battery lifes are usually in power saving modes, where the CPU is throttled down, screen is often at lowest brightness setting, all wireless is off, and the hard drive is idling.

-Zadillo

I agree but the verdict of like 2.5 hours watching a film seemed low as well.

Also, I don't know how much the screen brightness matters with an LED. Should be more efficient and so brightness is less of an issue.

BTW, I always have bluetooth off, but wonder what effect that has on battery life and some people have never used it, but have it on by default on their machines.

Hey if they went with a ULV processor, probably could have added some more time, but that would be a compromise too far. :)
 

skellener

macrumors 68000
Jun 23, 2003
1,786
543
So. Cal.
In other forums as well as this one, it seems to be the consensus that had Apple made a 12" or 13" MacBook Pro, people were ready to order right after the keynote. Many are now disgruntled and not interested in the Air. It's not Pro and it doesn't have the features of even the regular MacBook. It's just......thin. So the big question is will Apple ever do a Pro MacBook with a small screen ever again? It seems there is demand for it. Will they do it? And will the Air wither away after the niche of execs get theirs?
 

Zadillo

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2005
1,546
49
Baltimore, MD
Sony's ultra portable Vaio TZ gets 5 - 7.5 hrs of battery life. Weighs less than MBA, is smaller, has WWAN capability, includes an optical drive, and uses a 100 GB HDD.

The only plus for MBA is bigger screen and keyboard. Runs OS X. If one could run OS X on the Sony, I think most would buy the Sony over the MBA.

OK, but this comparison makes no sense. The Vaio TZ has only an 11" screen (quite hard to read compared to the 13" Vaio SZ or the MacBook Air, etc.). It has an incredibly small keyboard that is not nearly as comfortable to type on as a full 13" laptop's keyboard.

In terms of battery life, the TZ also only uses a fairly slow ULV processor - read some Sony Vaio forums sometime, and you'll see plenty of people complaining about how sluggish the TZ is.

And to say that the "only plus for the MBA is bigger screen and keyboard" I think is sort of underestimating the differences. To get the weight the TZ does, it does give you an incredibly small keyboard and screen, while the MBA weighs only slightly more, but gives you a much more useable screen and keyboard, a much better performing processor, etc.

A well configured TZ with 2GB of RAM of course also is significantly more expensive.

I'm not saying the TZ doesn't have its place as well, but I can cite myself as someone who, given a choice between a TZ and an SZ, for example, would always choose the SZ, simply because I find the TZ screen and keyboard and ULV processor performance to just be too limiting.

-Zadillo
 

peestandingup

macrumors regular
Jul 14, 2006
248
0
The first reviews are in for the MacBook Air:

- "Jobs told me last week that Apple considered [adding 3G mobile broadband] but that adding the capability would take up room and restrict consumers to a particular carrier. Through a USB modem, he says, you can still subscribe to wireless broadband with your favorite carrier."
Yeah, Apple would NEVER restrict its users into one cell phone carrier. :rolleyes:
 

kskill

macrumors member
Jan 17, 2006
87
0
new york, ny
That seems like a rather strange thing to say...

We're seriously considering the 24" iMac from money we save from her job, and then a MBAir if we can afford it later (depending on my job).
So what's the deal? Why is that only for rich people? It isn't a cheap laptop, that's true, but "ultraportables" aren't usually cheap. Honestly, I don't think many people out there really use their computers' horsepower anyway. the Air is perfect for all of Apple's cool apps except for video (iMovie, right), and how many people use that? I sure don't.

I say it's for the rich because a lot of people would not be able to use it as their sole computer. And if it's your second computer, you're spending $1800 on top of whatever you paid for the first one. [So yes, rich is an e exaggeration, but you need to be spending a lot of money on computers to have one].

Macbook Air is pretty cool, but to me it's a complete luxury.
 

eddietr

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2006
807
0
Virginia
I say it's for the rich because most people would not be able to use it as their sole computer. And if it's your second computer, you're spending $1800 on top of whatever you paid for the first one. [So yes, rich is an e exaggeration, but you need to be spending a lot of money on computers to have one].

Macbook Air is pretty cool, but to me it's a complete luxury.

The consensus is definitely that this is not something you want right now as your only computer. Maybe a year from now when there are larger capacity 1.8" drives (hopefully 128GB SSD at reasonable price)

But I think a lot of non-rich people have at least one other computer.

And having a laptop is not a luxury for people who travel. For me my laptop is my second machine, though, because I also need/want a desktop for heavier work.

So I guess that's the target customer right now.
 

NYCMacFan

macrumors regular
Jun 5, 2007
161
0
In other forums as well as this one, it seems to be the consensus that had Apple made a 12" or 13" MacBook Pro, people were ready to order right after the keynote. Many are now disgruntled and not interested in the Air. It's not Pro and it doesn't have the features of even the regular MacBook. It's just......thin. So the big question is will Apple ever do a Pro MacBook with a small screen ever again? It seems there is demand for it. Will they do it? And will the Air wither away after the niche of execs get theirs?

Ask yourself this. How much would a 13.3 MB Pro weigh?

If its 4.5lbs or less, you got an issue of whether you would want to go with an MBA to save 1.5 lbs. The old 12inch at 4:3 was 4.6lbs or something like that. A 13.3 is not that bigger and a new Macbook Pro could have a better case and saves some weight with the LED.
 

Shayne

macrumors member
May 23, 2007
30
0
Canada
If its 4.5lbs or less, you got an issue of whether you would want to go with an MBA to save 1.5 lbs. The old 12inch at 4:3 was 4.6lbs or something like that. A 13.3 is not that bigger and a new Macbook Pro could have a better case and saves some weight with the LED.

I'd just be happy to see the Macbook get the LED screen. Add a bit more life to it. Full featured laptop with near or better battery life then the MBA and only a bit heavier. Perhaps in a perfect world.
 

digitalbiker

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2002
1,374
0
The Road
OK, but this comparison makes no sense. The Vaio TZ has only an 11" screen (quite hard to read compared to the 13" Vaio SZ or the MacBook Air, etc.). It has an incredibly small keyboard that is not nearly as comfortable to type on as a full 13" laptop's keyboard.

In terms of battery life, the TZ also only uses a fairly slow ULV processor - read some Sony Vaio forums sometime, and you'll see plenty of people complaining about how sluggish the TZ is.

And to say that the "only plus for the MBA is bigger screen and keyboard" I think is sort of underestimating the differences. To get the weight the TZ does, it does give you an incredibly small keyboard and screen, while the MBA weighs only slightly more, but gives you a much more useable screen and keyboard, a much better performing processor, etc.

A well configured TZ with 2GB of RAM of course also is significantly more expensive.

I'm not saying the TZ doesn't have its place as well, but I can cite myself as someone who, given a choice between a TZ and an SZ, for example, would always choose the SZ, simply because I find the TZ screen and keyboard and ULV processor performance to just be too limiting.

-Zadillo

I understand what you are saying and I agree that I shorted the MBA a little because I forgot to mention the processor speed difference.

However as far as the screen goes when you compare ultra-portables you usually are desiring a smaller footprint. Also the TZ screen is higher-res than the MBA so you can actually fit more content on the screen even though it is physically smaller.

Most ultra-portable users are looking for a device that fits into a tight space, even when opened. I don't even consider the MBA an ultraportable because it is too big.

So what is the MBA, is it an ultra-portable or is it just a light laptop. If it is a light laptop then you have to compare it to the MB or MBP. I think most would either buy the MB or MBP as they are a much better bang for the buck.
 

Zadillo

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2005
1,546
49
Baltimore, MD
I'd just be happy to see the Macbook get the LED screen. Add a bit more life to it. Full featured laptop with near or better battery life then the MBA and only a bit heavier. Perhaps in a perfect world.

I think that is inevitable; Apple had specifically announced that they were eventually going to be transitioning their entire product to LED-backlit screens, so it's only a matter of time before the regular MacBook gets them as well.

At this point unfortunately the costs of LED-backlit screens still seems to limit them to premium laptops like the XPSM1330, Sony SZ, Sony TZ, Asus U6, etc.

-Zadillo
 

eddietr

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2006
807
0
Virginia
I understand what you are saying and I agree that I shorted the MBA a little because I forgot to mention the processor speed difference.

However as far as the screen goes when you compare ultra-portables you usually are desiring a smaller footprint. Also the TZ screen is higher-res than the MBA so you can actually fit more content on the screen even though it is physically smaller.

Most ultra-portable users are looking for a device that fits into a tight space, even when opened. I don't even consider the MBA an ultraportable because it is too big.

So what is the MBA, is it an ultra-portable or is it just a light laptop. If it is a light laptop then you have to compare it to the MB or MBP. I think most would either buy the MB or MBP as they are a much better bang for the buck.

The MBA is not a TZ, and it's not an MB or MBP either.

It's something else.

I've wanted a lighter laptop for some time. But I did not want a 10 or 11" screen. I did not want a small keyboard. I did not want a ultra low power processor. I did not want Windows. And I did not want to spend time getting Linux working smoothly on a machine where it isn't officially supported.

So the Air fits the bill. Not perfectly (wish it were a bigger HD), but it fits better than an MBP for me, and better than anything else I've looked at.
 

NYCMacFan

macrumors regular
Jun 5, 2007
161
0
Also the TZ screen is higher-res than the MBA so you can actually fit more content on the screen even though it is physically smaller.

Most ultra-portable users are looking for a device that fits into a tight space, even when opened. I don't even consider the MBA an ultraportable because it is too big.

On point 1, I am not sure how mcuh the high resolution helps if you can't read what you are looking at. I like the TZ, but a small screen has only so much usable space while still being readable. (And I don't wear glasses.)

On point 2, this is true and of course one MBA issue identified by reviewers is does it fit on a tray in coach class.
 

ebouwman

Cancelled
Jan 5, 2007
640
17
Sony's ultra portable Vaio TZ gets 5 - 7.5 hrs of battery life. Weighs less than MBA, is smaller, has WWAN capability, includes an optical drive, and uses a 100 GB HDD.

The only plus for MBA is bigger screen and keyboard. Runs OS X. If one could run OS X on the Sony, I think most would buy the Sony over the MBA.

Yes but that battery life is straight off of sony's site, and if you read it...
Estimated Battery Life: 4.0-7.5 hours
so really maximum rated battery life is better than the macbook, but how is it while you're using it like in these tests?

another plus though for the MBA is the size, it is smaller than the TZ just not width wise, but really, considering that the MBA is about the size of a sheet of paper, do you really need it to be smaller?

Since every briefcase of backpack ever made can accommodate the length and width a piece of paper, why would you need something smaller, i mean come on!
 

Zadillo

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2005
1,546
49
Baltimore, MD
I understand what you are saying and I agree that I shorted the MBA a little because I forgot to mention the processor speed difference.

However as far as the screen goes when you compare ultra-portables you usually are desiring a smaller footprint. Also the TZ screen is higher-res than the MBA so you can actually fit more content on the screen even though it is physically smaller.

Most ultra-portable users are looking for a device that fits into a tight space, even when opened. I don't even consider the MBA an ultraportable because it is too big.

So what is the MBA, is it an ultra-portable or is it just a light laptop. If it is a light laptop then you have to compare it to the MB or MBP. I think most would either buy the MB or MBP as they are a much better bang for the buck.

These are all fair points; as I said, the TZ has its place, and for people who absolutely depend on the smallest overall package, it fits the bill.

And yes, the TZ does have a 1366x768 res screen compared to the 1280x800 res of the MacBook Air. However, that higher res still comes at a cost; yes, you can fit a bit more, but it also makes things smaller......... some people can deal with this, and some can't. Personally I find 1366x768 on an 11" screen to be too small to comfortable view text/etc. for extended periods of time, unless you zoom in in Word, for example, at which point the higher res becomes useless.

I will personally take the 1280x800 13" screens of the MacBook Air or Sony SZ over the TZ any day.

You ask what the MBA is, and I think it's an interesting question.

I think it is sort of a mix of things; certainly it isn't for everyone, and either a MacBook or MacBook Pro (or a Vaio TZ or SZ or Dell XPSM1330) might be better options.

But the MacBook Air I think offers its own interesting mix. Right now, for people that did want a laptop in the 3 pound and under arena, you did have to make a lot of sacrifices in some pretty critical areas.

As I mentioned with the TZ, although it is very lightweight and portable, which is great for when you aren't using it and traveling around, it requires enormous compromises on the user's part when actually using it, given the small screen and keyboard. And of course the TZ's ULV processor also requires real performance compromises as well, and you'll find plenty of TZ owners complaining of the sluggishness of their systems.

I've personally always found something like the Sony SZ or the more recent XPSM1330 to be perhaps the best compromises between size and performance. Although they aren't as portable (given the larger footprint of a 13" machine), they have much more useable screens and keyboards.

But the SZ and XPSM1330 can get fairly thick in their own right, and also are in the 4 pound range.

So what the MacBook Air represents, I think, is a sort of middle ground. It gives you extraordinary thinness and a 3 pound weight, while still allowing you to have the benefits of a larger and more readable screen and a full-sized keyboard.

Now whether those compromises to get this combination are worth it is obviously a choice for the consumer to make. But I don't see a big problem with offering another take on this.

I think if Apple had just done a Sony SZ clone (like the XPSM1330), it would have been nice enough in its own right, and probably pretty close to what many people were hoping for. But I think there's something to be said for the MBA as well.

The MBA is not a TZ, and it's not an MB or MBP either.

It's something else.

I've wanted a lighter laptop for some time. But I did not want a 10 or 11" screen. I did not want a small keyboard. I did not want a ultra low power processor. I did not want Windows. And I did not want to spend time getting Linux working smoothly on a machine where it isn't officially supported.

So the Air fits the bill. Not perfectly (wish it were a bigger HD), but it fits better than an MBP for me, and better than anything else I've looked at.

Exactly. For the people asking "who is the market for this thing?", I think this sums it up pretty well.

I've always been intrigued by the idea of the TZ, but in actual use, I've found the screen and keyboard to just be too small. But I didn't like the SZ for other reasons.

I think there's definitely a market out there for that mix; the lightness of those 11" screen ultraportables, with the larger screens and keyboards of the SZ's and XPSM1330's of the world.

Yes but that battery life is straight off of sony's site, and if you read it...
so really maximum rated battery life is better than the macbook, but how is it while you're using it like in these tests?

another plus though for the MBA is the size, it is smaller than the TZ just not width wise, but really, considering that the MBA is about the size of a sheet of paper, do you really need it to be smaller?

Since every briefcase of backpack ever made can accommodate the length and width a piece of paper, why would you need something smaller, i mean come on!

No, the TZ can achieve that kind of battery life in real-life; but again, that is what is possible when you are only powering an 11" screen, using a 1GHz ULV processor, etc.
 

digitalbiker

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2002
1,374
0
The Road
The MBA is not a TZ, and it's not an MB or MBP either.

It's something else.

I've wanted a lighter laptop for some time. But I did not want a 10 or 11" screen. I did not want a small keyboard. I did not want a ultra low power processor. I did not want Windows. And I did not want to spend time getting Linux working smoothly on a machine where it isn't officially supported.

So the Air fits the bill. Not perfectly (wish it were a bigger HD), but it fits better than an MBP for me, and better than anything else I've looked at.

I guess my question to you is Why is this better than an MB?

The MB is the same physical dimensions only slightly thicker and it does weigh a little more than a pound more.

But...
You get longer battery life, bigger HDD, faster processor, easily accessible battery compartment, built-in ethernet, firewire, multiple USB ports, optical drive, and it is less expensive.
 

Zadillo

macrumors 68000
Jan 29, 2005
1,546
49
Baltimore, MD
I guess my question to you is Why is this better than an MB?

The MB is the same physical dimensions only slightly thicker and it does weigh a little more than a pound more.

But...
You get longer battery life, bigger HDD, faster processor, easily accessible battery compartment, built-in ethernet, firewire, multiple USB ports, optical drive, and it is less expensive.

The MacBook weights 2 pounds more (5.0 pounds vs. 3.0 pounds). That isn't really insigificant.

But again, it isn't saying that's "better" or "worse" than the MacBook. It doesn't kill Apple to have multiple types of products depending on what someone needs.

You could make this same argument about any number of laptops (say, comparing the Sony C or CR series to the Sony SZ series..... or the Dell Inspiron 1525 to the XPS1530).

-Zadillo
 

eddietr

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2006
807
0
Virginia
I guess my question to you is Why is this better than an MB?

The MB is the same physical dimensions only slightly thicker and it does weigh a little more than a pound more.

But...
You get longer battery life, bigger HDD, faster processor, easily accessible battery compartment, built-in ethernet, firewire, multiple USB ports, optical drive, and it is less expensive.

It's two pounds lighter. And I don't consider it only "slightly" thicker.

A 17" MBP is "only" 2 lbs heavier than a 15 and only "slightly" wider, but boy does that make a huge difference in portability.

I agree the MB performs better and is cheaper. But for some people (like me), I don't mind spending extra to get that weight down and to allow for a smaller bag. I can get a thin portfolio style briefcase now and have room for some files and this computer.

And that's perfect for me.

If I wasn't using the MP as my primary computer, then of course I would keep the MBP instead. Because then I would need more speed, an optical, etc. But right now I very often leave the MBP in the hotel and use my even slower, less capable iPhone because the MBP is just too bulky.

EDIT: I'm not saying the MBA is a better computer than the MB for everyone. But it is for me. And I understand for others the MB is better. Which is why it's a good thing Apple makes both. It's hard to understand why people seem disappointed that Apple provides more choices now than they did two weeks ago. I could understand the angst if Apple replaced the MB with the MBA. But they didn't.
 

digitalbiker

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2002
1,374
0
The Road
Now whether those compromises to get this combination are worth it is obviously a choice for the consumer to make. But I don't see a big problem with offering another take on this.

I think if Apple had just done a Sony SZ clone (like the XPSM1330), it would have been nice enough in its own right, and probably pretty close to what many people were hoping for. But I think there's something to be said for the MBA as well.

I agree with what you are saying.

I don't think there is any problem with Apple introducing a new line and experimenting with the market. There may be enough market for the MBA to sustain a few iterations and eventually Apple may hit on the perfect ultra-portable.

What I don't fully understand is why Apple is choosing to experiment with an untested design in their product line. They do so even though many customers have been dying for something between a mini and macpro for gaming and general computing. As well as the market for a MBP with a smaller footprint.
 
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