Flash: A serious debate vis-à-vis a popular tool.

[Platon]

Dear MR readers,

First and foremost, I would like to disclose the fact that I am a new member to these forums, but was following your posts and the actual website for quite some time now. The reason I decided to register and be officially part of this community was to express my personal opinion on the matter of Flash. This article is designated to Apple software in general, whether it is iOS software or Mac software.

Flash as a format has become widespread on the desktop market; one estimate is that 95% of PCs have it, while Adobe claims that 98 percent of U.S. web users and 99.3 percent of all Internet desktop users have installed the Flash Player, with 92 to 95% having the latest version.

Be it as it may be, Apple hardware is becoming increasingly popular and with it, Flash is starting to become less and less favorable with Mac/iOS enthusiasts all around the globe. As most of you probably know already, Apple CEO Steve Jobs has publicly expressed his thoughts on Flash in a letter that can be read at Apple's website. In short, he tries to dismiss its use as much as possible, notably in iOS. As a result, the first devices that pop in mind when thinking of Flash and Apple are the iDevices (iPhone, iPad & iPod Touch) and the iOS software.

It astounds me when I read that a large majority of posters in these forums have declared that they do not use Flash whatsoever. Under no circumstances am I saying that they are not telling the truth, but the fact of the matter that Flash is so incredibly popular, proves that many sites try to incorporate this technology to provide a better service for their viewers. Lets take YouTube for example, given the fact that it is the 3rd most popular website in the world and millions of people apply its content to their websites, makes me wonder why it is so hard for the majority of the community to not stumble across countless of times on such content. For those of you who state that there exists the YouTube application for the above content, I must declare that the application performs quite badly on iOS (read the many threads in the forums). Also, is there a need that users should have to switch back and forth from Safari to the YouTube app? Of course not! iOS has proven limited functionality in this domain. As regards Mac OS X, an option to switch to HTML 5 for video browsing is available by YouTube experimentally. Having tried it for a couple of days, I can firmly state that the difference in performance with regards to hardware temperature and overall system stability is trivial.

This issue was supposedly explained by Steve Jobs himself in his public letter. But, to be entirely honest, the problems that were raised by the letter were totally negligible. Let me explain why.

Firstly, I would like to address the problem of 'reliability, security and performance'. Steve Jobs quotes Symantec's findings that Flash has 'one of the worst security records in 2009'. Whilst this may be true, do we actually know how many security holes the stock iOS software currently has? Judging by the security exploit recently discovered by the jailbreak community that allows unsigned code to be executed through the Safari web browser, the stock iOS software has some grave security flaws. Apple needs not be urged by hackers to resolve this critical issue by forcing users to update their software just to keep them from harm's way. Mind you, this was the second time that the jailbreak community discovered such a security flaw in Apple's proprietary web browser. The first one was found last year and denoted a PDF exploit in Safari that enabled hackers once more to run unsigned code through the web browser. Furthermore, Steve Jobs stated that Flash does not run well on mobile devices. This declaration was true a year ago or so, but now there are numerous Android devices on the market that deliver the Flash experience beautifully.

Secondly, I would like to address the issue of 'battery life'. In my experience by using the iPad, I realized the battery performance is remarkable. It lasts throughout an entire flight (duration of approx. 5hrs) and mostly lasts throughout the day. The latter, though, is the most significant. How many of you use your iPad each day for a substantial amount of time on the web? I would guess, plenty. And what do you have to do with it every evening? Charge it. The inclusion of an option of enabling Flash to be run on iOS would have absolutely no detrimental effect on the battery life of an iDevice, notably the iPad with its amazing 10hr battery life. Surely it might decrease it by half an hour or so on average, but is that such a great cost to bear for having the full web experience? In my honest opinion, I think not.

By now you are probably thinking how long it is going to take me to address another infamous issue relating to Flash. The full web experience! Whilst using an iPad, I personally know friends and myself included, that come across Flash animations numerous times on the web and of course the iOS software was unable to display them. This, on the contrary to popular belief, does break functionality to a great extent! Why do users have to switch to a desktop/notebook to access the content of the web they choose to browse? They need not to. The iDevices and in particular the iPad function primarily on the web. Broken functionality in this specific domain might discourage current and future owners of iPad who would like/depend on correct Flash rendition.

To conclude, I must clearly state that I did omit some of the points expressed in Steve Jobs' letter, but I did so to shorten the length of this article. If necessary, I shall further express my thoughts on his arguments in further posts. Before I tie this letter off, I would like to stress the fact that this post is clearly my own take at this Apple vs. Flash debate. I would be delighted to see your own views exhibited on this matter without being obscene or rude. My final verdict is that the reason Apple does not implement Flash has something to do with business rivalry and the inclusion of Flash in Apple's iDevices might not have a positive effect on Apple's financial status.

Looking forward to some convincing arguments with respect to this outlook,

Regards.

 

[iStudentUK]

I use clicktoflash on my MacBook and don't miss flash on my iPad. I maybe need to use flash once a month. When my parents and siblings got Macs the first thing I tell them to do is install clicktoflash so I can avoid a phone call later asking why their fans are so loud and on fire when all they are doing is browsing the web.

Yes flash is still commonly used by many, but not me. Its use will decrease over time, although I doubt as quickly as some MR users seem to think.


(It's great someone finally took the time to write a MacRumors thread regarding flash. I don't think I've seen one before.)

 

[MotleyGrrl]

I didn't read the majority of your post, but just have to say that in the 4 months I have had my ipad, there has been one time I came across a site I wanted to use that was flash. And it was for voting on a tv show.
Conclusion - I do not need flash.

 

[blipmusic]

Eh? You don't happen to be employed by Adobe do you?

Flash as a format has become widespread on the desktop market; one estimate is that 95% of PCs have it, while Adobe claims that 98 percent of U.S. web users and 99.3 percent of all Internet desktop users have installed the Flash Player, with 92 to 95% having the latest version.

And that somehow makes it good? Widespread use is a non-argument. It says nothing of the quality, capabilities etc, just that it's there.

It astounds me when I read that a large majority of posters in these forums have declared that they do not use Flash whatsoever. Under no circumstances am I saying that they are not telling the truth, but the fact of the matter that Flash is so incredibly popular, proves that many sites try to incorporate this technology to provide a better service for their viewers.

So we should abandon open standards that are in some cases already there? I cringe every time some stupid site gives me a flash menu (luckily, this happens less and less) that could have been replaced with a few lines of html/css. It's irresponsible design.

Flash font rendering is abysmal compared to modern day OS:es correlates. A properly composed png looks much better. Luckily, this is countered by newer services such as TypeKit and Google Web Fonts, which both make use of the OS's font rendering.

In its early days flash sole handedly broke evolving GUI standards in web browsers. In all fairness html/css and some javascript could be used to break gui standards as well... It's up to the designer.

Lets take YouTube for example, [...] As regards Mac OS X, an option to switch to HTML 5 for video browsing is available by YouTube experimentally. Having tried it for a couple of days, I can firmly state that the difference in performance with regards to hardware temperature and overall system stability is trivial.

Let's not as they're currently migrating to html5 as far as I know. If it is a "trivial" difference you also get to use an open standard most/all modern browser can parse *without* a plug-in.

Firstly, I would like to address the problem of 'reliability, security and performance'. Steve Jobs quotes Symantec's findings that Flash has 'one of the worst security records in 2009'. Whilst this may be true, do we actually know how many security holes the stock iOS software currently has?

How is that even relevant to state of flash security? Say for the sake of the argument that iOS is a swiss cheese as far as security goes, how would that speak for/against flash in any way? It's completely irrelevant.

Secondly, I would like to address the issue of 'battery life'. [...] absolutely no detrimental effect on the battery life of an iDevice, notably the iPad with its amazing 10hr battery life.

There might have been some progress in that respect. Don't know as I currently don't own an iPad. Not where my beef with flash lies though.

The full web experience!

... Don't. Just don't.

Whilst using an iPad, I personally know friends and myself included, that come across Flash animations numerous times on the web and of course the iOS software was unable to display them.

Animations as in video which could have simply been in a container all browsers could have used without a plugin? Animations as in interface animations that might have been accomplished via html/css?

This, on the contrary to popular belief, does break functionality to a great extent! Why do users have to switch to a desktop/notebook to access the content of the web they choose to browse?

Wrong question. Instead, ask yourself why the web designer was hellbent on using a proprietary format for his/her design. Did he/she have to? In this case (if this wasn't some special case where flash, and only flash, could accomplish what other standards/solutions could not) it was the web designer that didn't let you view the content.

Then again I'm usually of the opinion that special formats etc should always be avoided if it is not absolutely necessary to implement them.

I'm sorry but there is nothing in your post telling me why flash should be used over a rapidly evolving and open standard. I shold perhaps note that I didn't like flash the first time I tried it either. Was fun the first time to see some web dev show off what could be done (this was on a Windows 486DX2/66 machine) but as a GUI implementation I didn't like it at all.

You can be a part in the development of html5. Try flash in that respect.

What you didn't bring up where I guess flash can have it's use, is as a cheap-ish development tool for indie game devs such as over at Kongregate.

Also, streaming movie rentals seem to lean towards flash/silverlight. Can anyone elaborate on security issues (as in security from piracy for the rental service), compared to say iTunes movie rentals? That's the only time flash (or rather the need for a plug-in) has stopped me, though Voddler doesn't mention flash/silverlight (well, I think you have to run a background service which might not be any better).

 

[itickings]

the fact of the matter that Flash is so incredibly popular, proves that many sites try to incorporate this technology to provide a better service for their viewers.

How does it prove that?

Furthermore, Steve Jobs stated that Flash does not run well on mobile devices. This declaration was true a year ago or so, but now there are numerous Android devices on the market that deliver the Flash experience beautifully.

And yet you don't give any example at all of such a device, or what you consider to be a beautiful Flash experience. Quite impossible to comment on then... How do you expect to convert people while withholding such crucial information?

Surely it might decrease [battery life] by half an hour or so on average, but is that such a great cost to bear for having the full web experience? In my honest opinion, I think not.

Of course you don't think that. But where did you get that half an hour from?

Whilst using an iPad, I personally know friends and myself included, that come across Flash animations numerous times on the web and of course the iOS software was unable to display them. This, on the contrary to popular belief, does break functionality to a great extent!

If something is contrary to popular belief, wouldn't it be a good idea to give examples of such functionality broken to a great extent?

To conclude, I must clearly state that I did omit some of the points expressed in Steve Jobs' letter, but I did so to shorten the length of this article. If necessary, I shall further express my thoughts on his arguments in further posts. Before I tie this letter off, I would like to stress the fact that this post is clearly my own take at this Apple vs. Flash debate.

If you do further express your thoughts, please try to make the expression much shorter and more concise... It would probably be good if you didn't consider what you write here to be articles or letters, but rather as posts intended for a web discussion forum.

Looking forward to some convincing arguments with respect to this outlook

I could say the same

 

[Platon]

@iStudentUK

Thank you for your kind support.

Regards

@blipmusic

1. No, I do not work for Adobe. I am just a slightly disappointed consumer.

2. I was simply trying to state that Flash is an incredibly popular medium to exhibit content on the web.

3. Just to make things clear, I am in no way objecting the use of open standards as a means of displaying themes online, but the gist of the matter is that Flash content exceeds by far the other great & open standards that are slowly being adopted by the web. Therefore, I believe that Flash, as of right now, still remains an indispensable tool to the average Joe.

4. Well, taking it from a viewpoint of a computer newbie, the difference (if any) is trivial. Now, when it comes down to you and me then, as we are more knowledgeable than the average person as regards computers, we may see some difference in overall system performance.

5. Actually, since you are comparing iOS with swiss cheese, then it is completely relevant. If a piece of software (and I mean any piece of software) is riddled with security exploits, then by no means should we turn down other pieces of software such as Flash in this particular example. It still remains an essential part of the web, no matter how improperly it was programmed.

6. No matter how much you dislike it, the full web experience is missing from iOS.

7. (+8) Web designers simply go with the flow. If they decide that Flash is the most appropriate utility for their webpage, they will go with Flash. One serious argument that you did not mention was the fact that consumers do not need to go with the method of a web designer or the company that offers the product. Consumers need electronic devices that work (referring to the iPad).

Regards

@itickings

1. It is proven as a result of its immense popularity.

2. Motorola XOOM. For a non-Android device, the BlackBerry Playbook based on its QNX Neutrino OS delivers Flash beautifully. Do not forget the phrase where it mentions an option to include Flash.

3. Of course I do! That was a simple guess, but with varied usage the battery life may vary favorably/negatively to the user.

4. Read the example again that I proposed.

5. The 'posts' that you are referring to can result in inaccuracy and lack of detail. An 'article', from my viewpoint, tries to tackle a debate more effectively by providing as much detail and accuracy as possible. All in all, I must agree with you on one point: a shorter post is more easily digested by an onlooker.

 

[blipmusic]

Sorry for the Adobe affiliation remark. That was a bit low.

5. Actually, since you are comparing iOS with swiss cheese, then it is completely relevant. If a piece of software (and I mean any piece of software) is riddled with security exploits, then by no means should we turn down other pieces of software such as Flash in this particular example.

Sorry, but it is completely irrelvant. Even if iOS would be the least secure system on this planet that is an issue on its own that has no bearing what so ever on whether flash should or should not be used. Absolutely none.

It still remains an essential part of the web, no matter how improperly it was programmed.

You can't be serious. So even if flash was a piece of crap (and even I wouldn't go that far) we should continue to use it? I think you want to rephrase that. Again, its widespread use is a non-argument. Anyone who develops a website has choice. There is no incentive to use flash just because it happens to be popular - that's irrational. You can just go with something else, preferably html/css together with other standards.

If there is this one example where flash, and only flash, can achieve what is needed (needed = key word) then sure. Otherwise, no.

6. No matter how much you dislike it, the full web experience is missing from iOS.

Perhaps in the case of the examples *I* gave. That is, in-browser movie rentals and flash games. Other than that, no it's not missing at all in my case. I don't even notice missing it, besides some ad boxes that my flash blocker takes care of. Flash ads, we certainly want, nay need, those (sorry, that was irrelevant). So, technically, and because of the lazy use of flash, you are right. As I noted, I see less and less use of flash for gui elements on the web in favor of open standards.

Web designers simply go with the flow. If they decide that Flash is the most appropriate utility for their webpage, they will go with Flash. One serious argument that you did not mention was the fact that consumers do not need to go with the method of a web designer or the company that offers the product. Consumers need electronic devices that work (referring to the iPad).

They "simply go with the flow"? If I am ever part of HR in a web dev company (I won't be, don't worry) you can be absolutely, positively sure that any designer who "simply goe with the flow" without critically assessing what is needed will have no place there. I fully agree that html5 is still in development but look at CSS3 (perhaps even CSS2?) together with html4 and you can still accomplish *alot* of what some sites use flash for. That is irresponsible and lazy web development. I hope you're not saying that we should disregard - or rather: allow for - bad, lazy and irresponsible design? That is absolutely *not* what the user needs.

There are so many good resources out there for web development that lack of html/css knowledge is not an argument for flash at all. The user will not need to download a plug-in for that solution it "just works" out of the box - just what the user needs, as you argued.

You see, you *didn't* get in trouble on your iPad where html/css etc was used for flashy stuff others might lazily use flash for.

You are right in that the user wants/needs eletronic devices that just work. I don't see that happen with the continued use of flash. If we want to move towards open standards, when html5 is ready, there will be a breaking point that causes some confusion. I believe that is what we are seeing the beginning of with all the recent flash debates. It's inevitable in any paradigm shift.

The widespread use of flash is only because we, the users, allow it to be. It's a self-feeding downward spiral.

 

[santaliqueur]

We can accomplish the tasks that Flash can do with other software that is more secure. Feel free to use it if you like, but it's not the only way to see video on the web. I don't miss it.

 

[Darth.Titan]

OP, I know you're new here, but seriously there are plenty of threads on this topic here already. We don't need another.

The chances of Apple changing its stance on Flash are slim. If Flash is a deal breaker for you, there are other options. Vote with your wallet.

Don't feed the troll people.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Flash was a useful tool during it's time because there was a lot of things missing from the standards. But over time the standards have evolved and engulfed almost all of what Flash was able to do. The difference is that Flash is a closed standard that is controlled by one company for their own benefit. Open standards are open to all developers and are properly supported by the standards of the browsers that use them. We should be moving to the use of standards instead of sticking to a closed proprietary solution. The main reason developers continue to use flash is because they are not adept enough to learn the new standards and are afraid to throw away the clutter of the past. As a whole, Apple as a company has proven to be more then willing to let go of the past; look at Lion, Rosetta is gone, a big step forward. They know that if you don't cut out the past at some point, you're doomed to drag it around forever. For the good of the product, move forward. Microsoft is slowly learning this lesson but they STILL continue to struggle trying to maintain backward compatibility. Look at the Youtube HTML5 implementation; it works as well, if not better (a bit less power hungry) then the Flash version, BUT it's an open standard and thus a better choice for the future.

As for security; Flash has been shown to have major vulnerabilities, holes that anyone could easily jump through and cause problems for the end user and, in this case, more importantly, the hardware vendor (Apple). Now is iOS perfect? Heck no, there are holes, just like there is in EVERY piece of software, but iOS is only 1/4th the age of Flash (maybe even less) and thus flash SHOULD be much more bullet proof because it has had much more time to evolve and patch holes. But Adobe had really dropped the ball there and for many years refused to patch issues. Apple, when new holes are found, are patched rapidly (the one you mentioned has already been patched). It is not feasible for a developer to find every hole, every trick themselves, things will slip by. But as long as they fix the issue in a reasonable amount of time, it typically isn't an issue the problem is Adobe hasn't fixed many of the issues.

When it comes to battery life, Flash is a pig. It really is. Sure in the last few months (they released their new version around the beginning of this year) they have gotten their act together and produced a version of Flash that is acceptable, but in general when it is enabled it drains the battery like no tomorrow. Look at the early reports of Flash on the Android before this latest push by Adobe; it sucked. Videos were slide shows, games were unplayable, etc, and battery life was measured in minutes instead of hours. The ONLY reason Adobe got off their ass is because Jobs called them on it. Apple went to Adobe and asked them to produce a better version of Flash for the iPhone (the original) and they didn't do it. They delayed the iPhone for it, and still it didn't show so they went ahead without it. A year later, Adobe still couldn't get it to work and that is when Jobs went off on them. Fast forward a few years and FINALLY Adobe got it right. But it's a bit too little, too late, they've already pissed Apple off. Even now Flash on the Mac sucks, it still can cause problems and my poor laptop turns into an oven when it is running. Fortunately Click-to-Flash works great.

As to missing the web? Well, I've had my iPhone since the second gen and have had Flash disabled (at least through ClicktoFlash) for years now. So rarely do I find the need to do anything with flash that it has become absolutely a null point. A few times a year I'll run into something that requires flash, but I just go somewhere else that doesn't. Those companies lose my business. 90% of the time Flash is used for Ads, so who cares, let it be missing. I do run into a few videos that are only in Flash, but even those are often getting replaced (CNN is just stuck in the '90 when it comes to flash videos). My wife got her iPhone and iPad a few months ago; she knows nothing about Flash, and uses these devices almost exclusively for browsing and she has not once complained about something not working. 5 Years ago, Flash was much more necessary than it is today, in 5 more years, even less. Developers are learning, iOS is here and Flash is not. They cannot afford to isolate those potential customers who use iOS.

Adobe has really sat on their laurels over the last 10 years. There are tons of examples where they didn't fix problems or didn't do what they needed to do for their customers. Flash is just one example, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, etc, they didn't want to do anything but continue to sell the same crap with a few new bells and whistles. Sure they seem to be getting back to basics in the last two years, but really, it took them that long to realize that they were screwing things up? Job's tirade wasn't the first about Adobe, there were others, many from former developers for Adobe themselves. This is where I lay the crux of the blame.

Now, Apple isn't blameless in this either. They did make an effort to help Adobe but what Adobe wanted was not what they were willing to supply. And after the screwups with the original iPhone it became a pissing contest between Jobs and Adobe; and Jobs personality would never allow him to back down and finally accept Flash even if Adobe did fix it. Because Steve drew a line in the sand and Adobe crossed it; he could never let them back into the inner circle, it's just not him. But at the same time, it is quickly becoming more and more irrelevant as much of the content of the web is moving away from Flash.

There is one other point and this one Jobs made indirectly. If consumers are having problems with their device because of Flash (as, at the time, Flash massively sucked for mobile devices) they will blame the device they are holding, not Adobe. Because most people don't know what Flash is, they don't care, in their eyes, if the device doesn't work the way it want it too, then the device is bad in their eyes. This could easily have been a black eye to Apple even though it was all Adobe's doing. And thus, by removing Flash from the devices, it mean that Apple alone was taking the risk (shipping a device without Flash) based only on their work, not someone else's.

Everyone's milage may vary; it is easy for someone to say well I HAVE to have access to this one website that requires Flash, and thus I MUST have Flash on my device. Well, that's all good and fine, but then an iOS device is not for you. For others, like myself, we rarely run into places that require flash for normal operation, and thus, can ignore it. Each to their own. But it is quite obvious that the people have spoken. The iPad sold over 9 million units LAST QUARTER and over 33 million iOS devices. Where as the Xoom, Playbook, and GalaxyTab as each pegged about 1 to 2 million A YEAR. That is a VAST difference and it shows one thing; the consumers have spoken and iOS is the choice for them and this is without Flash.

This is the bottom line, the consumers have chosen the device that doesn't support Flash, and thus, is it really isn't necessary. Considering how wildly successful iOS is, developers WILL focus on developing for it and thus, their use of Flash will have to diminish if they want to continue trying to woo that market.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

There is one major reason why Apple will never allow flash on the iPad.

iTunes.

Flash competes with the iTunes TV + Movie store, as well as the iTunes App store. If everyone made apps that were in flash, they would be cross-tablet compatable, and Apple would lose their app store advantage.

It's not because it sucks, it's because it's anti-competitive.

 

[Platon]

@blipmusic

1. No problem.

2. What I was trying to explain here is that in Steve Jobs' letter he states that Flash is a vulnerable piece of software, and that the inclusion of it in iOS would have many negative effects to whomever chooses to use it. Personally, I disagree! What Apple needs to worry about is to try and create a powerful yet secure and stable OS and need not hackers point out its various security flaws. If it reaches that point and Adobe does not conform then so be it. I think that we may not really understand each other on this particular factor.

3. As you said 'Anyone who develops a website has choice.', and web designers choose Flash. Believe me, I come across web sites of different topics that seem to prefer Flash as a medium of exhibiting their content (not always the case, but it happens quite often). I agree that Flash is a badly written program, but until it is completely overtook by other media, you cannot restrict users from accessing it.

4. As I have already mentioned, examples of Flash implementation across the web are diverse and are, by no means, limited to the examples you mentioned.

5. 'The widespread use of flash is only because we, the users, allow it to be.' Consumers do not care if they use Flash or not. Companies and the market need to figure out what is best for the web. If consumers deem correct the presence of Flash on the web because all they want to do is just watch a random video online or access some part of a random site, then Flash is indispensable.

@Darth.Titan

You have it all wrong my friend. I do not want a war to begin between Apple and Adobe on this forum. Next time you should consider reading the title of thread before you enter. I would like to keep this thread as educational and informative as possible.

 

[Platon]

@thejadedmonkey

Exactly, you hit it right on the nail. Apple does not want to have anything to do with Flash because it is anti-competitive and not because it sucks.

 

[blipmusic]

What I was trying to explain here is that in Steve Jobs' letter he states that Flash is a vulnerable piece of software, and that the inclusion of it in iOS would have many negative effects to whomever chooses to use it.

So, Apple should plug their own security holes before complaining on others. Fair enough, but that does not mean one should implement another possible security risk.

Believe me, I come across web sites of different topics that seem to prefer Flash as a medium of exhibiting their content [...] I agree that Flash is a badly written program, but until it is completely overtook by other media, you cannot restrict users from accessing it.

I'm positively sure you have but why on earth should such design behaviour be supported and encouraged by hardware manufacturers and users? You vote with your wallet when not purchasing a product for whatever reason, use that reasoning on the sites you have visited. I use a flash blocker in Safari. In Chrome I turn off flash. It'll show up in their statistics one way or the other.

You say it's badly written and yet you want its continued use when there are other, *better* options in most cases...?

So when lazy designers feed us Soylent Green we better eat it (with our specially made Soylent Green Spoons, no less!) because that's what we are given... Since we eat it, it must be good enough. We should therefore encourage the designers to produce more and ask for seconds...? Uhm, right.

As I have already mentioned, examples of Flash implementation across the web are diverse and are, by no means, limited to the examples you mentioned.

I didn't say that. What I said was that the only times it has been a show stopper for me was when trying in-browser streaming movie rentals and games. Though, there is a great pacman clone as a web app for iPhone.

Consumers do not care if they use Flash or not.

That. Is. My. Point. If they bumped into html/css/javascript in the place of flash they would not care. Neither would they need to have a proprietary plug-in installed.

Is this some kind of internet stress test?

Companies and the market need to figure out what is best for the web. If consumers deem correct the presence of Flash on the web because all they want to do is just watch a random video online or access some part of a random site, then Flash is indispensable..

What horrible kind of circle argument is that? Go upp and see point on designers and Soylent Green again.

As many have already told you flash isn't indispensable any longer. You are digging yourself quite a deep hole full of your ignorance of current web technologies.

 

[santaliqueur]

I am a new member to these forums, but was following your posts and the actual website for quite some time now.

Too bad you have not been using the search tool. This argument is old. I wish you well with whatever path you choose, but you'll not get Flash on Apple devices, no matter how "convincing" your argument is. I see your argument as full of holes, but that's my opinion. Good luck.

 

[Platon]

@santaliqueur

Too bad you wasted your time in composing such a useless post. Next time you ought to invest your time correctly by submitting a worthwhile response. Oh, regarding your comment on the lack of originality, I am sure such thread of this calibre regarding Flash has not been posted before.

@blipmusic

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your arguments. Now to the meat of this response. We are both sharing the same opinion regarding your fourth point. But, we seem to go off in different tangents! What I was trying to say was that the average Joe does not care about Flash/HTML/CSS/JavaScript. They want to connect to the Internet and be able to access any sort of content they wish. By limiting the use of a web standard (in this case it is Flash), you are not providing a complete service to your customers. Until every single piece of data is converted to the preferable open web technologies, there is no excuse as to not have at least the option of enabling a less favorable standard, just because we, as technologically savvy, deem incorrect.

I believe that it would be beneficial if you read 'thejadedmonkey' 's post:

There is one major reason why Apple will never allow flash on the iPad.

iTunes.

Flash competes with the iTunes TV + Movie store, as well as the iTunes App store. If everyone made apps that were in flash, they would be cross-tablet compatable, and Apple would lose their app store advantage.

It's not because it sucks, it's because it's anti-competitive.

 

[CylonGlitch]

Flash competes with the iTunes TV + Movie store, as well as the iTunes App store. If everyone made apps that were in flash, they would be cross-tablet compatable, and Apple would lose their app store advantage.

It's not because it sucks, it's because it's anti-competitive.

Yeah, and considering that all iTunes sales is about 5% of their revenue, I don't think that this conspiracy theory holds any water. If it was 50% of their revenue, then maybe. Apple has been claiming that it runs basically at break even; and their numbers show that. Source

 

[al2o3cr]

Secondly, I would like to address the issue of 'battery life'. In my experience by using the iPad, I realized the battery performance is remarkable. It lasts throughout an entire flight (duration of approx. 5hrs) and mostly lasts throughout the day. The latter, though, is the most significant. How many of you use your iPad each day for a substantial amount of time on the web? I would guess, plenty. And what do you have to do with it every evening? Charge it. The inclusion of an option of enabling Flash to be run on iOS would have absolutely no detrimental effect on the battery life of an iDevice, notably the iPad with its amazing 10hr battery life. Surely it might decrease it by half an hour or so on average, but is that such a great cost to bear for having the full web experience? In my honest opinion, I think not.

I hope you washed your hands after typing that paragraph, because it pretty clearly originated from somewhere deep inside your anus.

For some fact-based analysis, try the Guardian's review of the Motorola Xoom:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/27/motorola-xoom-review-tablet-computer#battery

Enabling Flash while browsing CUT BATTERY LIFE IN HALF. Not "reduced it a little", devoured HALF of it.

Looking forward to some convincing arguments with respect to this outlook,

It'd be even better if you'd posted some for your own argument, rather than spackling the walls of the thread with bovine excrement.

 

[blipmusic]

What I was trying to say was that the average Joe does not care about Flash/HTML/CSS/JavaScript. They want to connect to the Internet and be able to access any sort of content they wish. By limiting the use of a web standard [...]

And I and others were saying that you aren't limited any longer with non-flash content, though you repeatedly seem to miss that point.

There will be a breaking point where it is better to look elsewhere (as in the mentioned developing technologies). As long as flash is loaded on devices it will see use, it's really that simple, but you seem to neglect this point as well.

I'm sure Apple have their reasons as well - such as the mentioned risk of blaiming the hardware, and consequently the company, for software (i.e Flash) problems or even Steve Jobs' prestige, relating to the mentioned earlier dealings with Adobe/Flash. As far as I know it's also harder to optimize for cross-platform frameworks, but saying that is stretching the boundaries of my knowledge.

I am done repeating myself and replying here. We have to agree to disagree. Perhaps, do a search and look through the ton of earlier threads.

 

[Moyank24]

My final verdict is that the reason Apple does not implement Flash has something to do with business rivalry and the inclusion of Flash in Apple's iDevices might not have a positive effect on Apple's financial status.

Looking forward to some convincing arguments with respect to this outlook,

Regards.

This debate has been had in many facets over and over on this site. And basically you have said the same things as others who are pro-flash on this site. You may have used more words, but believe me, you're saying the same things.

The paragraph above astounds me. Pro Flash supporters have been saying that for years...When the iPhone gets a competitor with flash, they'll start losing money....When the iPad gets a competitor with flash, they'll start losing money. It hasn't happened yet. If it's effecting their bottom line, it's becoming increasingly hard to tell. They made 7 BILLION last quarter.

People who purchase i products are voting with their wallets, and they are voting against Flash in record numbers. The great thing for those who want it on their devices is that they now have a choice. You talk about owning an iPad...even you voted against it. It's crazy to me that people continue to complain about this issue, yet they still continue to purchase Apple products.

 

[wordoflife]

I personally don't find Flash "useless"
Yeah, we know is sucks a**, but theres too much on the web that uses it. I have a lot of things that need flash, and quite frankly, I don't mind using it.

Do I wish it was more efficient? Sure. But its not something I think about on a daily bases. I just use it for what it is.

 

[munkery]

It's not because it sucks, it's because it's anti-competitive.

Financial motivations are usually a big part of any of these types of situations.

But, I try to use Flash as little as possible because alternatives are easier on the battery life.

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/35606/youtube5-safari-extension

 

[miamialley]

I automatically vote down any post using the word "whilst."

 

[Platon]

@Moyank24 & to whomever for that matter

I am not pro-Flash or pro-HTML5 or pro-whatever! I am a customer that demands a fully workable device. If you have not realized it yet, my posts regarding Flash were from a complete viewpoint of an average customer. I also acknowledge the fact that the iPad and all of Apple's devices are becoming immensely popular and to you it seems that Flash is a non-existent argument just because of this augmented popularity. Personally, the lack of Flash on an iOS device is not a deal breaker for me, but it would definitely be appreciated as it would give a more complete web experience (rather than stumbling upon broken websites).

Surely 'it is better to look elsewhere', but that takes time and dedication. The switch does not happen overnight. That is where my argument comes in. 'Until every single piece of data is converted to the preferable open web technologies, there is no excuse as to not have at least the option of enabling a less favorable standard, just because we, as technologically savvy, deem incorrect.' Remember, an average consumer purchases an iPad or any iPad not for one reason, but for many. It may be to access the web on-the-go, to play games and fiddle around with apps, or to compose a simple e-mail. Its usage varies from person to person and not every consumer exhausts the entire web and comes across broken websites (this was just to prove that Flash is not being dissed off because consumers choose the iPad).

To conclude, it all comes down to business rivalry. The sole reason why Apple and Adobe do not work together is because it is anti-competitive for Apple in more ways than one and not because it sucks.

@al2o3cr

You better take care of your language next time you participate in this thread.

@miamialley

Is that so?

 

[jive turkey]

I don't think we are as close to the death of Flash as a lot of my friends here do. Still, I keep it disabled in all browsers except Chrome, and I enjoy the web much more (and my laptop behaves better). If I come across a site where I want to use flash, I can easily open preferences, enable the plugin, and reload in less than 7 seconds. If I want to have a flash object open while I surf the rest of the web in peace, I open it in Chrome and keep surfing in Firefox or Safari. It is well worth the trouble, and thanks to HTML5 extensions and being able to opt-in at YouTube, there are really only 2 sites that I ever need flash on, and those only once or twice a week.

I am not a fan of the click-to-flash and flash-block extensions, either. If I am not using flash in my browser, I want the webpage to know it when I get there so they load a proper alternative, with full functioning menus and such.