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All flash sucks

...sucky Flash sucks.

(and it's a shame so many people can't make that distinction)

Users hate flash because of the "sucky flash" you talk about, that drains their batteries and crashes their browsers. Web developers hate flash because it is proprietary, non-standard, and closed.

Web developers should use JavaScript and SVG to program their interactive sites and vector animations, they are STANDARD web technologies. And they work - see Google Maps, and all the other google apps. No flash there!
 
Users hate flash because of the "sucky flash" you talk about, that drains their batteries and crashes their browsers. Web developers hate flash because it is proprietary, non-standard, and closed.

Web developers should use JavaScript and SVG to program their interactive sites and vector animations, they are STANDARD web technologies. And they work - see Google Maps, and all the other google apps. No flash there!

And there are elegant and useful sites that use Flash well. Flash is THE most common browser plug-in, so it is a de facto web standard (and it's not closed; Adobe has opened up the IDE so many other applications can create and integrate SWF content).

My point (that you missed) was that users do not hate Flash--they hate poorly developed applications (regardless of what they're developed with) and appreciate well-developed applications (many of which are developed in Flash and Flex)
 
Flash Lite
Now, I lay me down to sleep
Ooh, I just can't find a beat
Flash Lite... Flash Lite...

La-da-da-hee-da-da-da-da-da-da-da

- George Clinton


sorry just had to
 
I don't know much about the technology of Flash, and whether it really sucks or not.

All I know is that this weekend my sister was in town, and we had been improvising a lot of our plans, and my iPhone was a HUGE help in getting us around to various activities. At one point she wanted to go to the "Top of the Rock" (Rockefeller Center in NYC), so I tried to go to the main page of their site for prices and stuff, and got a "This site requires the latest version of Flash player" page instead of the actual site. I eventually found a direct link to a welcome page that bypassed the Flash animation in the beginning, but then I discovered the links inside (to prices and info) were also Flash-based, I guess, since they weren't showing up.

This has happened to me more times than I can count (probably 1 out of every 10 times I try and look something up), and is really frustrating -- since it's situations like this that the iPhone should be perfect for, but is useless.

So whether or not Flash sucks or not doesn't matter to me. It's situations like these which suck -- and wish could change. I don't care how they change, I just don't want them to happen anymore...
 
Rojo, www.topoftherocknyc.com is the perfect example of the bad implementation of Flash: the website is a typical HTML site (once you get past that annoying Flash splash page) with many small SWFs (pieces of Flash scattered around the page). And it's why many people make blanket, myopic statements like "all Flash sucks". They could easily have detected that you didn't have the FlashPlayer on your phone and automatically routed you into an HTML site with all the pertinent information contained in those Flash tidbits (but they didn't... so the designer who failed you is the one who sucks, not the technology).
 
Text Messaging and Flash are not the same. Flash drains battery life, is annoying to many people, and is horribly slow on the Mac. Even allowing flash as an option will poison the iPhone environment, because sites will start requiring it in their iPhone versions. It would soon enough NOT be an option, obviously. If Apple continues not to allow flash, people will start using standards, like the canvas element, that are supported by the iPhone.


;)

Text messaging is a drain on my wallet, annoying to many people (including myself) and has no off switch ;)

Flash on the other hand I could actually use AND without being charged every time I use it.

Canvas element is NOT a solution to Flash but a new problem for ALL browsers except of course safari :rolleyes:

BTW, flash runs just fine on ALL of my macs.
 
Hopefully this will be better than the new Flash Player 10 Mac Beta which doesn't even work at ALL with SAFARI 4 or WEBKIT in either Tiger OR Leopard ?!?!?! And it gets better, if you have Safari 4 installed, the new Flash Player 10 doesn't even work in FIREFOX EITHER! HAha!

Seriously, Adobe needs to get it's head out of it's AZZ.

It's pretty clear from the bumbling Flash Player 10 Mac beta release that Adobe has no clue and I now totally agree with Steve Jobs' decision to not bend over backwards just to get such crappy Flash software compatibility for either iPhones or Macs that will ultimately become obsolete soon.

Thank you Steve Jobs for making Adobe BEG some more! :D
 
Text messaging is a drain on my wallet, annoying to many people (including myself) and has no off switch ;)

Flash on the other hand I could actually use AND without being charged every time I use it.

Canvas element is NOT a solution to Flash but a new problem for ALL browsers except of course safari :rolleyes:

BTW, flash runs just fine on ALL of my macs.

First of all, the iPhone is not a Mac. It will run flash much slower and will drain your battery life. The Mac version of Flash is abominable compared to the Windows version and the only reason that is even starting to change is because of Apple's outright refusal to allow it on the iPhone.

I'm not really sure what you're saying about the canvas element since your phrasing is confusing, but it seems like you're saying it only works in Safari. Fortunately, Safari works on the iPhone. Problem solved.

It's pretty clear from the bumbling Flash Player 10 Mac beta release that Adobe has no clue and I now totally agree with Steve Jobs' decision to not bend over backwards just to get such crappy Flash software compatibility for either iPhones or Macs that will ultimately become obsolete soon.

Thank you Steve Jobs for making Adobe BEG some more!

YES, exactly. Adobe never even ran Flash through a performance measurement application. ONE tiny bugfix increases performance 300% and they haven't even bothered to fix it until now? Adobe is the new Microsoft. Apple is doing you a favor by not allowing them to glom on an awful plugin for the iPhone.
 
For whatever reason when I read that at first I thought that some one had brought a Flashlight app to the iPhone, but I just woke up so it's not surprising that my reading comprehension isn't that great :D

I know someone who used an iPhone 1.0 for that very purpose. It was a mission critical need too, as it was the ONLY suitable device available. It would have been a real improvement to have the option to set the display to full light. As it was, I believe he used contacts in the phone application as a surrogate.

A free app, or a setting, to turn iPhone into a flashlight would be a good lesser used feature.

Rocketman
 
I know someone who used an iPhone 1.0 for that very purpose. It was a mission critical need too, as it was the ONLY suitable device available. It would have been a real improvement to have the option to set the display to full light. As it was, I believe he used contacts in the phone application as a surrogate.

A free app, or a setting, to turn iPhone into a flashlight would be a good lesser used feature.

Rocketman

:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez8qRwCbec4
 
Flash is THE most common browser plug-in, so it is a de facto web standard (and it's not closed; Adobe has opened up the IDE so many other applications can create and integrate SWF content).

Flash is a plugin, that is the problem. If it were open, then Apple would have fixed the issue long ago by integrating it into Safari (not as a plugin) and it wouldn't suck.

My point (that you missed) was that users do not hate Flash--they hate poorly developed applications (regardless of what they're developed with) and appreciate well-developed applications (many of which are developed in Flash and Flex)

The point that has been made in this forum by many people is that Flash is sometimes necessary into today's web. Just like Internet Explorer is necessary for some sites. The web is broken, and perhaps the iPhone is helping to fix it.

But, in conclusion, I really hope Adobe gets their act together and makes Flash works on the iPhone, just so the current user experience is improved. But a bigger hope I have is that web developers will improve the user experience by not using proprietary, non-standard technologies.
 
First of all, the iPhone is not a Mac. It will run flash much slower and will drain your battery life.
But since it doesn't use any resources other than storage media except while it's not running, it will only drain battery life while you're actually using it. It should be possible to make it extremely obvious when Flash content is about to load, and give the user the option of blocking or allowing it either on a case-by-case basis, or according to a set of predefined rules.

The Mac version of Flash is abominable compared to the Windows version and the only reason that is even starting to change is because of Apple's outright refusal to allow it on the iPhone.
I'm sure you have proof of that.

I'm not really sure what you're saying about the canvas element since your phrasing is confusing, but it seems like you're saying it only works in Safari. Fortunately, Safari works on the iPhone. Problem solved.
The problem is that support for the canvas element is not deployed widely enough yet for it to be a viable replacement for Flash from the perspective of a content creator wanting to reach the broadest audience with the least effort. In fact, so far I haven't seen any alternatives that adequately replace the full breadth of cross-platform consistency and functionality you can get from Flash. Well, maybe Silverlight, but I haven't really looked too deeply at it yet.

YES, exactly. Adobe never even ran Flash through a performance measurement application. ONE tiny bugfix increases performance 300% and they haven't even bothered to fix it until now?
With the Open Screen Project, Apple is totally at liberty to create its own well-performing Flash Player replacement based on openly published specs and royalty-free licenses. [holds breath]

Adobe is the new Microsoft. Apple is doing you a favor by not allowing them to glom on an awful plugin for the iPhone.

Fine. You don't want Flash. I support your right to be able to keep your iPhone Flash-free. I disagree with your position that just because you don't want it, it follows that nobody else should be given to option of using it either.
 
Flash is a plugin, that is the problem. If it were open, then Apple would have fixed the issue long ago by integrating it into Safari (not as a plugin) and it wouldn't suck.

That's ridiculous. The whole point of the open-ended plug-in architecture of browsers (which all browsers employ) is so developers of cutting edge technology (Adobe) can deploy frequent improvements and users don't have to wait for Apple, Microsoft, Mozilla, etc. to roll out their next browser version; they just update one plug-in.

By your logic anything that takes advantage of a browser plug-in sucks? (I guess sound and video suck).
 
First of all, the iPhone is not a Mac. It will run flash much slower and will drain your battery life. The Mac version of Flash is abominable compared to the Windows version and the only reason that is even starting to change is because of Apple's outright refusal to allow it on the iPhone.

I'm not really sure what you're saying about the canvas element since your phrasing is confusing, but it seems like you're saying it only works in Safari. Fortunately, Safari works on the iPhone. Problem solved.



YES, exactly. Adobe never even ran Flash through a performance measurement application. ONE tiny bugfix increases performance 300% and they haven't even bothered to fix it until now? Adobe is the new Microsoft. Apple is doing you a favor by not allowing them to glom on an awful plugin for the iPhone.

Not wanting to get into a pissing match here but my point was this, Your original comment basically said "I dont want Flash and I dont think anyone else should have Flash either because I dont like it".

There are many, many, many people who do want Flash on their iPhones or at the very least the option to have Flash on their iPhones.

You point out that flash is "horribly slow on the Mac". I pointed out that I dont have any issues with Flash on any of the 5 Macs I work on. Yes the phone will be a different issue but thats not what you were referencing.

And while canvas element should work on all browsers it will only work well on Safari. Any time a browser is updated the scripting in canvas element will need to be updated. This is not a solution and no different then the current situation with Flash. It just only favors Safari now.
 
But since it doesn't use any resources other than storage media except while it's not running, it will only drain battery life while you're actually using it. It should be possible to make it extremely obvious when Flash content is about to load, and give the user the option of blocking or allowing it either on a case-by-case basis, or according to a set of predefined rules.

Yeah, I'm sure users want a popup to come up every time a site wants to load a Flash ad.

I'm sure you have proof of that.
No, of course I don't. But flash is well-known to be extremely slow on the Mac and has been for years, and it's only changing now. No matter what the reason, it's inexcusable that one tiny bugfix took this long.
The problem is that support for the canvas element is not deployed widely enough yet for it to be a viable replacement for Flash from the perspective of a content creator wanting to reach the broadest audience with the least effort. In fact, so far I haven't seen any alternatives that adequately replace the full breadth of cross-platform consistency and functionality you can get from Flash. Well, maybe Silverlight, but I haven't really looked too deeply at it yet.
Then they can make a specific part of the site for the iPhone that doesn't require flash. Or they could just use HTML and Javascript to make their website. The only time Flash is even remotely necessary is with flash video, and it's not out of the question to ask them to use a open standard.
With the Open Screen Project, Apple is totally at liberty to create its own well-performing Flash Player replacement based on openly published specs and royalty-free licenses. [holds breath]
But they don't want flash. Why would they do such a thing? They like AJAX and QuickTime video and Apple has no desire to put work into reimplementing functionality. I'm sure you've used Apple's website before. They have managed to make a very nice site with animations and other nice little touches without using a single flash element.
Fine. You don't want Flash. I support your right to be able to keep your iPhone Flash-free. I disagree with your position that just because you don't want it, it follows that nobody else should be given to option of using it either.
Again, the reason I don't want it is because even allowing flash would soon turn it into a requirement as sites are not going to put the work into using industry standards if they don't have to. The leak would turn into a flood, and Apple is making the right choice by not allowing the leak.

Anyway, I'm extremely sure that Apple will never allow flash on the iPhone for all the reasons I've given., so this argument is sort of pointless.

You point out that flash is "horribly slow on the Mac". I pointed out that I dont have any issues with Flash on any of the 5 Macs I work on. Yes the phone will be a different issue but thats not what you were referencing.
I used to say the same thing, but I was wrong. Flash is extremely slow. Compare it to a Windows PC and you will understand. And, as I said, if it's that slow on Macs with the fastest processors in the industry, how do you think it's going to function on the iPhone's puny ARM processor?

Also, Flash lite is not Flash. Allowing flash lite will NOT make your web pages work because they were not developed for flash lite. Flash lite will not make flash video work, because it was not developed for flash lite. In other words, specific pages will have to be made for iPhone flash lite, and if the web page creator is going to do that, they might as well just use an industry standard, like I've been saying, that works on the iPhone. And no, regular Flash could not possibly work on today's iPhone. It would crash, overheat, or drain your battery so fast it would be unusable.
 
flash lite

I would like to see this as Youtube is fine...but I want to watch streaming video from other sites as well...CNN,Teachertube,NASA etc. Wish list..Quicktime and an onboard camera for the ipod touch,,,If not an onboard camera maybe a peripheral one?
 
I'd love to see a Flash player for the iPhone, but I'm not sure how it'd come about.
A few questions/notes, if I may:

1: Does Safari for Macs and PC's have Flash(I use Firefox on my PC)? If they don't yet, then I can't see iPhone getting it any time soon.

2: iPhone Safari has a hard enough time loading rich, image intensive and full sites without loading Flash as well. I doubt whether the iPhone browser could handle it to be honest.

3: I'm not sure how much(if any) of the SDK allows for Safari tweaking.

4: I'd guess that a dedicated .flv player would still need some tweaks in Safari to enable it to accept the links.
 
That's ridiculous. The whole point of the open-ended plug-in architecture of browsers (which all browsers employ) is so developers of cutting edge technology (Adobe) can deploy frequent improvements and users don't have to wait for Apple, Microsoft, Mozilla, etc. to roll out their next browser version; they just update one plug-in.

By your logic anything that takes advantage of a browser plug-in sucks? (I guess sound and video suck).

By your logic Flash is cutting edge. It used to be, but by now its more like a dull club.

I agree with you that plugins should be used to provide the cutting-edge content that browser's can't do by themselves. I highly supported the Adobe SVG plugin for this very reason.

Flash does not fall into this category. The point is, other standardized technologies exist to replace flash, so it should be replaced. Even if plugins are needed to get these standard technologies to work in crap browsers (like IE). And Flash is a "bad plugin" because it tries to sideline actual good technologies in favor of its proprietary format. At least quicktime is used to play h.264, mpeg4, aac, and other standardized formats.

And the iPhone will make a dent in the Flash stranglehold. The iPhone got the largest internet video provider (Youtube) to move from flash video (propriety crap) to h.264 (standardized goodness). That in itself is a pretty good accomplishment - it helped that Google dislikes flash as much as Apple does.

I wish Adobe would have just killed Flash when they bought Macromedia, or transformed it into an SVG editor and plugin. Oh well, it will die eventually in favor of open standards - read the Flash Wars articles on AppleInsider to see how much the cards are stacked against Adobe.
 
interesting how the only anti-flash comments here run along the line of "flash sucks", but then offer no alternative as to how to load flash required websites on the Iphone.

thanks for the constructive criticisms.
 
interesting how the only anti-flash comments here run along the line of "flash sucks", but then offer no alternative as to how to load flash required websites on the Iphone.

thanks for the constructive criticisms.

The point is that Apple shouldn't bend over backwards to support broken websites - if web developers want people to use their websites, they will use supported technologies.

The iPhone also can't load web pages that require ActiveX, Windows Media Player, Real player, Silverlight, or Java. Many sites probably don't work because of that.

The only reason people complain about Flash in particular is Macromedia had a big success in convincing a whole bunch of developers it was a good idea to use Flash as an integral part of their website. It wasn't. Flash is just the latest fad in creating broken websites.

It shouldn't be Apple's job to fix these web developers' mistake - that's THEIR job. Unfortunately, the user suffers. But the Flash developers are to blame for that suffering, not Apple.

And if Sun wants Java and Adobe wants Flash on the iPhone, that's THEIR job. And as I understand, they are both working on it. I hope they both succeed, but not too quickly, because I hope this whole thing gets it into web developers heads that they should NEVER depend on a plugin, especially when alternatives exist.

For those that don't think flash is replaceable, see
http://people.mozilla.com/~vladimir/demos/photos.svg and
http://www.whenpenguinsattack.com/2007/01/10/5-cool-javascript-apps/
 
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