Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
For Debate: Is Apple Using Steganography In iTunes Plus Songs?
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I honestly couldn't care less about this. Everyone had to know that Apple wasn't going to just start selling tracks that were not tracable just so they could end up on file sharing sites. The point of removing the DRM was so you could use it however you want FOR YOUR PERSONAL USE, not so you can upload it to bittorrent.
However, I'm not going to start buying music off iTunes because of the same reason I didn't buy it before. They are ****** lossy compressed tracks. For the same price, I can go to a CD store and get full uncompressed audio, plus the nice album art and a permanent backup of the music.
Paying for lossy music is stupid, DRM-free or not.
However, I'm not going to start buying music off iTunes because of the same reason I didn't buy it before. They are ****** lossy compressed tracks. For the same price, I can go to a CD store and get full uncompressed audio, plus the nice album art and a permanent backup of the music.
Paying for lossy music is stupid, DRM-free or not.
Both of the songs that were purchased were the same song, and both were the iTunes Plus versions of the song. The only difference was which account was used to buy it.
I think this is getting blown a little out of proportion.
If only people would get this upset when the government continually lies to them. Aparently that is okay.
This whole "stealing a hard drive" senario is just crazy. The person stealing it would have to know you bought iTunes Plus tracks. They'd have to go through and find them all amougst the other tracks. Guess what, that's not why they stole your hard drive in the first place. They would probably just erase the drive or sell it to someone else that would erase it to just use it.
DRM free download music is finally here. If you are honest and use it as intended no one is going to see your figerprint. I do remeber hearing something about a watermark BEFORE Apple launched the service. It might even be in the iTunes user license agrement that pops up when you upgrade iTunes. Who read it? Didn't think so.
There are much easier ways for people to get your e-mail address. Obviously because of all the chinese junk mail I get everyday that Apple Mail filters out for me. If this is really a concern for you then the maybe internet isn't the place for you. There is something to be said for a big brother argument. One one hand people are upset about their information being "stolen" then they turn around and open a MySpace account that lets businesses and marketers know every detail about the user. So which is it?
It makes me sad what gets people so upset. I hope the votes at the top of this forum show the real concensus. If people are really serious about this get off the net, go cut up your credit cards, drive to Best buy with your GPS Nav off, and buy a CD with cash. Try to avoid being spotted by the store security cameras while your at it. Sorry folks this is the world we live in. Don't cast Apple as some kind of hitler anti-chirst. Look to the other parts of the world where real human injustices are happening every day.
If only people would get this upset when the government continually lies to them. Aparently that is okay.
This whole "stealing a hard drive" senario is just crazy. The person stealing it would have to know you bought iTunes Plus tracks. They'd have to go through and find them all amougst the other tracks. Guess what, that's not why they stole your hard drive in the first place. They would probably just erase the drive or sell it to someone else that would erase it to just use it.
DRM free download music is finally here. If you are honest and use it as intended no one is going to see your figerprint. I do remeber hearing something about a watermark BEFORE Apple launched the service. It might even be in the iTunes user license agrement that pops up when you upgrade iTunes. Who read it? Didn't think so.
There are much easier ways for people to get your e-mail address. Obviously because of all the chinese junk mail I get everyday that Apple Mail filters out for me. If this is really a concern for you then the maybe internet isn't the place for you. There is something to be said for a big brother argument. One one hand people are upset about their information being "stolen" then they turn around and open a MySpace account that lets businesses and marketers know every detail about the user. So which is it?
It makes me sad what gets people so upset. I hope the votes at the top of this forum show the real concensus. If people are really serious about this get off the net, go cut up your credit cards, drive to Best buy with your GPS Nav off, and buy a CD with cash. Try to avoid being spotted by the store security cameras while your at it. Sorry folks this is the world we live in. Don't cast Apple as some kind of hitler anti-chirst. Look to the other parts of the world where real human injustices are happening every day.
I don't see the issue here. The information in my recently purchased iTunes plus tracks couldn't possibly outweigh the stuff I've typed down on my browser while doing my personal banking and purchasing stuff off of ebay or other websites, or the personal info I have saved on my computer. Since I don't distribute my music willy nilly to everyone I see where is the problem? So you have songs that have your basic account info embedded. It's unlikely that this information *alone* could be used to screw you over.
This is the least obtrusive of digital management methods and yet people still find a reason to bellyache. I'm very glad that this is now the extent of the new DRM practice, as I often send my gf lots of music (many of which are itunes purchases) onto her computer. With this I can get her a new system and not have to worry about account authorizations if ever the time came I cancelled my email subscription, effectively killing that that Apple ID.
@Luis,
Yeah the files are a bit larger, but not by too much..not nearly as much as a lossless file would occupy.
This is the least obtrusive of digital management methods and yet people still find a reason to bellyache. I'm very glad that this is now the extent of the new DRM practice, as I often send my gf lots of music (many of which are itunes purchases) onto her computer. With this I can get her a new system and not have to worry about account authorizations if ever the time came I cancelled my email subscription, effectively killing that that Apple ID.
@Luis,
Yeah the files are a bit larger, but not by too much..not nearly as much as a lossless file would occupy.
I love the use of scary-sounding words like "fingerprinting" and "steganography" when nobody really knows what the purpose is of these 774 bytes. There could be a million different reasons Apple is adding extra info to these songs, and just because they appear to differ for different accounts, doesn't mean a thing. I'm not sure why the test didn't include buying the same song twice under the same account. If the 774 bytes matched between songs, then you have a reasonable cause to assume it's identifying the buyer, but if those bytes still differ? Then what? Perhaps Apple tags each song with a unique identifier or date of purchase or date of encoding for support purposes. Let's say you have a few users buy songs and they claim that the song was badly encoded. Wouldn't it be nice from a customer support perspective to be able to identify those tracks and queue up a re-download for all the customers who bought that track? And let's say the song was re-encoded at some point in the past (for whatever reason) so songs bought prior to a certain date didn't need to be re-downloaded, just a certain range.
I'm sure the iTunes Store is big and complex and you don't have to imagine much to think of ways that unique tagging of songs can help you as a seller. I think it's premature to jump to the conclusion that Apple is "fingerprinting" the songs.
I guess Apple should inform us of this, but I don't really care about them putting digital watermarks in the music files.
I love how this is a big deal now that you can buy music from iTunes without DRM. If you try the TUAW test on a DRM'd song from iTunes, the string information is easily readable. The DRM doesn't encrypt that data and someone could still get your information. And yes, I did de-authorize my computer before trying to read the string data. If everybody was worried about getting their personal information stolen from a music file we should have complained to Apple years ago when they started selling songs.
As w/ many of you, I don't care they put your user name in there as long as Apple officially discloses that they do that. If they don't I won't be surprised to see lawsuits.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about DRM. I like how it tries to prevent people from stealing music, but the restrictions are stupid. For one thing, I had to get my motherboard replaced b/c it went bad. Before replacing it, it said I had 3 computers licensed. After it, it said I had 4. Also, I'd like to burn mix CDs for riding in my car. Sure, I can use my iPod and get an FM transmitter for it, but I hear those are awful. I just want to do whatever I want w/ my music.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about DRM. I like how it tries to prevent people from stealing music, but the restrictions are stupid. For one thing, I had to get my motherboard replaced b/c it went bad. Before replacing it, it said I had 3 computers licensed. After it, it said I had 4. Also, I'd like to burn mix CDs for riding in my car. Sure, I can use my iPod and get an FM transmitter for it, but I hear those are awful. I just want to do whatever I want w/ my music.
This isn't meta data we're talking about.Since the music is pure digital data it's in bits.I don't think burning to a disk then re-importing will remove the bits that contain your email address.I might be wrong though.
That would be a major feat of information theory. At least enough to get you a full professorship somewhere.
Why would you think the fingerprint could be read without the encryption key?
Whoa, major leap there. All the presence of a watermark in a song means is that you were the original purchaser. There's absolutely no other meaning to be inferred from it. If it showed on P2P, you might be a good lead for the beginning of an investigation. Or guilty, but that's not known a priori.
The confounding thing is that this technique is orders of magnitude more useful if Apple discloses it. WTF are they thinking?
Right now, some people at Apple are reading this thread, shaking their heads in absolute disbelief, and asking themselves how paranoid people can get. 
I'm astounded at how many posters here think that the Big Brother way is the right way.
This has nothing to do with people trying to steal, as is their argument.
I have nothing to worry about in this regard but it still concerns me when people start tracking my every move.
How do you know what they are doing with this information? And please don't call me paranoid
Just because credit cards, passports etc carry this risk does not make it right.
I also believe that the people who steal software of any kind are plain thieves and deserve to be punished, but why should their misdeeds affect the rest of the population?
If Apple and the music industry feel the need for this type of technology then that is their business and I am not going to criticize it....I just think it would be nice if they were to inform us that's all.
The world has changed dramatically since 9/11 and it sure ain't for the good
This has nothing to do with people trying to steal, as is their argument.
I have nothing to worry about in this regard but it still concerns me when people start tracking my every move.
How do you know what they are doing with this information? And please don't call me paranoid
Just because credit cards, passports etc carry this risk does not make it right.
I also believe that the people who steal software of any kind are plain thieves and deserve to be punished, but why should their misdeeds affect the rest of the population?
If Apple and the music industry feel the need for this type of technology then that is their business and I am not going to criticize it....I just think it would be nice if they were to inform us that's all.
The world has changed dramatically since 9/11 and it sure ain't for the good
Apple should say something about this, at least in fine print.
People will still buy songs from the iTunes store, regardless.
Why?
1. Convenience
2. Cost
3. Speed
I used to say that I would never ever buy DRMed songs from iTunes. Then a new album came out and I really didn't want to go to the local record shop and WHAM, iTunes store had me. It did bother me that I was locked into iTunes/iPod, but it's the best music player software/hardware combo out there, hands down. Not like I want to use anything else. . .
Anyway, from the very beginning, Apple has included DRM to appease record labels. Do you think they'd put it in there themselves? Nope. They wouldn't because they know that people would still buy songs from them to support artists. Problem is, a lot of music is locked up in record label contracts.
Point being, don't attack Apple for trying to deliver digital music. They are doing what they can to provide DRM-free tracks. Attack the record labels and call your congress critters and ask them to change copyright laws.
People will still buy songs from the iTunes store, regardless.
Why?
1. Convenience
2. Cost
3. Speed
I used to say that I would never ever buy DRMed songs from iTunes. Then a new album came out and I really didn't want to go to the local record shop and WHAM, iTunes store had me. It did bother me that I was locked into iTunes/iPod, but it's the best music player software/hardware combo out there, hands down. Not like I want to use anything else. . .
Anyway, from the very beginning, Apple has included DRM to appease record labels. Do you think they'd put it in there themselves? Nope. They wouldn't because they know that people would still buy songs from them to support artists. Problem is, a lot of music is locked up in record label contracts.
Point being, don't attack Apple for trying to deliver digital music. They are doing what they can to provide DRM-free tracks. Attack the record labels and call your congress critters and ask them to change copyright laws.
I'm astounded at how many posters here think that the Big Brother way is the right way.
This has nothing to do with people trying to steal, as is their argument.
I have nothing to worry about in this regard but it still concerns me when people start tracking my every move.
How do you know what they are doing with this information? And please don't call me paranoid
Just because credit cards, passports etc carry this risk does not make it right.
I also believe that the people who steal software of any kind are plain thieves and deserve to be punished, but why should their misdeeds affect the rest of the population?
If Apple and the music industry feel the need for this type of technology then that is their business and I am not going to criticize it....I just think it would be nice if they were to inform us that's all.
The world has changed dramatically since 9/11 and it sure ain't for the good
What's that old Benjamin Franklin quote. . . "Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."
As for Apple implementing it, it doesn't really bother me - they wouldn't be stupid enough to use it for evil - at least I should hope!
The problem isn't what Apple is going to do with it, the problem is what other ppl are going to do with this information. It's only a matter of time until other
software (music players etc) can read these fingerprints ... derive your buying habbits from it etc. etc. the possibilities are endless. The next thing you know
is that if your tagged music files circle on the internet you will be the one who
has to proove that someone stole the file from your computer if you dont want
to be charged for copyright enfrigment. If you worked for the NSA with such
types of techniques you should know.