For those complaining about Apple being snobbish...

[greytmom]

I dunno. It seems a bit presumptious to me. I know my own style better than some cue-card training script can ascertain.

I mean, would you ask the average Apple store employee what sort of haircut suits you? This is similar - but at least a bad haircut will grow out.

I've never had a bad experience with an Apple employee. If they said something to me about "hey, I think you'd love this band" and they are basing it on something they observed, like my embossed leather iPhone case, or my bright pink Michael Kors handbag, there's no harm in that.

I just don't see the point of getting outraged over something like this. There's so many things in life that are worth getting tuned up about. I don't think this is one of them. But, to each his own.

 

[Arran]

I don't see what's pretentious about offering a higher-priced watch.

The lower-priced ones function the same way. No biggie.

Well, you see, that's the problem exactly. By offering a $17,000 watch which is clearly worth no more than $300 tops for the innards and maybe 2-3K for the additional gold, Apple are presenting their brand (and entire product line by association) as "Bad Value for Money".

And it's an inarguable association. Can anyone make a legitimate case for purchasing the $17K Apple watch? Not when it's components are so easy for the uneducated layman to price-out.

Apple's long-loyal customers (rational people, in my experience) are no doubt starting to wonder how much they've overpaid in the past for MacBooks and iPhones. I know I am. So does Apple really offer value for money? Maybe it's time to seriously look at the competition. The other financial news that Apple is sitting on an embarrassingly huge cash pile it doesn't know what to do with - only bolsters this doubt.

Quite damaging for the brand. All to fulfill someones dream of being a luxury goods supplier. They should've made luxury goods a separate brand and let it stand on it's own two feet. Earn it's luxury label.

 

[cardfan]

Stores want to sell you stuff. They will tell you what you want to hear. So who really cares. I don't give any salesman much credibility at any store.

I like Apple's products but I don't think they need to go to lengths to embellish them. Jobs always tossed numbers or claims out at events but they weren't outlandish. Cook is trying to convince us that ipads are so wonderful that they have a 100% customer satisfaction rate. More recently he went on about 98% or so for the iphones.

If something sounds too good to be true, it usually isn't. And that comes across as being deceitful. It's not needed.

If he can boldly make such claims at an event, then it's really hard to trust anything else he is saying.

Anyways, just let the products sell themselves. There's no need to exaggerate anything. There's no need to have a 10k+ category in an over the top effort to get the fashion talk going.

 

[camtechman56]

There's a big difference between the person who must ask for fashion advice, as compared to a stylish fashionable thirty year old woman who travels the world, has a two million dollar wardrobe and a net worth of twenty five million.

Curious about the Apple Watch she dresses down to avoid drawing attention at the mall and walks into the Apple Store. There she's greeted by a person that has no clue other than it's a 30 minute appointment.

Enthused and eager to sell a gold watch the Apple minimum wage employee begins talking fashion, a field they have zero experience in, when the women only wants to talk about how the Watch works.

Thirty minutes is not as long as it sounds, there's hardly time for a complete presentation of the watch.

Apple is clearly out of their element here, but the Apple Faithful will never admit that until the slap of reality hits once the Watch is in stores...

Huh? I am not one of the Apple Faithful, If you read some of my other posts you will be able to tell. It is about what a product can do for me, not what I can do for a big business. Now lets be real, do you know anyone that weak minded that they would be swayed into buying an apple gold by a clerk? 99% of everyone that will go to the store will pretty much know what they want and the ones that don't probably will know when they see it, and the sales people will be there to explain and answer questions, because they won't have time for anything else.

 

[Rogifan]

Well, you see, that's the problem exactly. By offering a $17,000 watch which is clearly worth no more than $300 tops for the innards and maybe 2-3K for the additional gold, Apple are presenting their brand (and entire product line by association) as "Bad Value for Money".

And it's an inarguable association. Can anyone make a legitimate case for purchasing the $17K Apple watch? Not when it's components are so easy for the uneducated layman to price-out.

Apple's long-loyal customers (rational people, in my experience) are no doubt starting to wonder how much they've overpaid in the past for MacBooks and iPhones. I know I am. So does Apple really offer value for money? Maybe it's time to seriously look at the competition. The other financial news that Apple is sitting on an embarrassingly huge cash pile it doesn't know what to do with - only bolsters this doubt.

Quite damaging for the brand. All to fulfill someones dream of being a luxury goods supplier. They should've made luxury goods a separate brand and let it stand on it's own two feet. Earn it's luxury label.

How does one define value, especially in the luxury space? And how does a $10K gold watch mean Macs and iPhones are overpriced? And unlocked Galaxy S6 and HTC One M9 are very close in price to an unlocked iPhone 6.

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There's a big difference between the person who must ask for fashion advice, as compared to a stylish fashionable thirty year old woman who travels the world, has a two million dollar wardrobe and a net worth of twenty five million.

Curious about the Apple Watch she dresses down to avoid drawing attention at the mall and walks into the Apple Store. There she's greeted by a person that has no clue other than it's a 30 minute appointment.

Enthused and eager to sell a gold watch the Apple minimum wage employee begins talking fashion, a field they have zero experience in, when the women only wants to talk about how the Watch works.

Thirty minutes is not as long as it sounds, there's hardly time for a complete presentation of the watch.

Apple is clearly out of their element here, but the Apple Faithful will never admit that until the slap of reality hits once the Watch is in stores...

Except there's no evidence Apple Store employees are being forced to talk fashion with you. And what does minimum wage have to do with anything? The Edition watches are only being sold in select Apple stores and based on all the rumors so far only certain Apple employees will be dealing with Edition customers. I think I'll trust the people Cook hired from the luxury fashion and watch industry over ransom MR posters.

 

[Arran]

How does one define value, especially in the luxury space?

I'm not talking about the luxury space. I'm talking about the Edition's impact on Apple's traditional product space and branding? How this bizarre "anomaly" fits into Apple's mass-market product assortment and what it says about Apple's brand values.

Because mass-market is where Apple makes it's money. You don't want to give that huge sector any reason to doubt your product's or company's integrity.

 

[Rogifan]

I'm not talking about the luxury space. I'm talking about the Edition's impact on Apple's traditional product space and branding? How this bizarre "anomaly" fits into Apple's mass-market product assortment and what it says about Apple's brand values.

Because mass-market is where Apple makes it's money. You don't want to give that huge sector any reason to doubt your product's or company's integrity.

I wasn't aware people were doubting it (aside from you). Seriously I think the Edition watch is getting way too much attention from everyone not named Apple. 99.9999% of Apple customers won't be buying an Edition watch yet the media can't stop focusing on it. And it's not because Apple is putting the Edition front and center; they're clearly not. Most of the publicity so far has been about the fitness aspect of the device.

 

[bunnicula]

Well, you see, that's the problem exactly. By offering a $17,000 watch which is clearly worth no more than $300 tops for the innards and maybe 2-3K for the additional gold, Apple are presenting their brand (and entire product line by association) as "Bad Value for Money".

And it's an inarguable association. Can anyone make a legitimate case for purchasing the $17K Apple watch? Not when it's components are so easy for the uneducated layman to price-out.

Apple's long-loyal customers (rational people, in my experience) are no doubt starting to wonder how much they've overpaid in the past for MacBooks and iPhones. I know I am. So does Apple really offer value for money? Maybe it's time to seriously look at the competition. The other financial news that Apple is sitting on an embarrassingly huge cash pile it doesn't know what to do with - only bolsters this doubt.

Quite damaging for the brand. All to fulfill someones dream of being a luxury goods supplier. They should've made luxury goods a separate brand and let it stand on it's own two feet. Earn it's luxury label.

I own plenty of Apple products and the only thing I know is that I've never paid more for any of them than I'm willing to spend.

I think you're reaching.

The Edition is a gold version of a more affordable smart watch. It'll sell. Some people will just want it. Not all purchases have to make sense. People who buy it will buy it because they WANT it.

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I'm not talking about the luxury space. I'm talking about the Edition's impact on Apple's traditional product space and branding? How this bizarre "anomaly" fits into Apple's mass-market product assortment and what it says about Apple's brand values.

Because mass-market is where Apple makes it's money. You don't want to give that huge sector any reason to doubt your product's or company's integrity.

And I'm telling you they really won't.

Apple is making some very attractive, affordable watches in aluminum and stainless steel. Everyone seems pleased with those offerings.

Am I upset with Apple for putting out a higher-priced version that's more than I'm willing to spend for a first gen smart watch? Nope.

I think most people feel the same way.

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How does one define value, especially in the luxury space? And how does a $10K gold watch mean Macs and iPhones are overpriced? And unlocked Galaxy S6 and HTC One M9 are very close in price to an unlocked iPhone 6.

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Except there's no evidence Apple Store employees are being forced to talk fashion with you. And what does minimum wage have to do with anything? The Edition watches are only being sold in select Apple stores and based on all the rumors so far only certain Apple employees will be dealing with Edition customers. I think I'll trust the people Cook hired from the luxury fashion and watch industry over ransom MR posters.

I bet the regular Apple employees aren't allowed to discuss anything much about the Edition except to point people to the employee on duty that sells them.

The employees who have been trained to sell them will handle the transactions accordingly. They are there to answer questions the customers may have and applaud the customer's excellent taste in smart watches.

Just like every other high-end boutique employee ever.

 

[rjlawrencejr]

To ask a similar question another way, would you ask a plumber about brain surgery?

Thanks for the hyperbole but your analogy is way off base. As others have said, fashion is very subjective and the retail store employees are there to guide you in terms of proper size and fit. But back to your silly analogy, there is a much greater chance an Apple Store employee has studied or worked in a fashion environment than a plumber having gone to med school and studied neurology.

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I think that's a great comparison. Fair enough if the barista is only working part time at Starbucks to help fund his PhD thesis in race relations. That would be an interesting and, above all, informed conversation. Not a waste of my time. How many baristas qualify?

Conversely, Apple giving their regular employees some superficial "fashion" training so they can dispense style advice to customers seems seems ill-advised. Current employees were probably hired on their innate ability who juggle wholly deterministic buying parameters (such as size of RAM/hard drive/processor speed/etc). Asking them to now start selling on subjective factors seems like a bad job fit.

Apple probably needs to hire some different sales people? And if they're good, they'll want commission.

The more I think about it, the more I feel Apple should've invented a separate "Luxe" brand for watches and kept it all completely separate from mainstream Apple. They certainly should've kept them out the Apple stores, out of apple.com (or at least less prominent) and generally off on their own until Apple EARNS some credibility in the luxury wearables sector.

The Apple Store employee is no more or less trained than the average part-timer at Tiffany & Co when it comes to dispensing fashion advice. They're there to be a guide.

 

[rjlawrencejr]

There's a big difference between the person who must ask for fashion advice, as compared to a stylish fashionable thirty year old woman who travels the world, has a two million dollar wardrobe and a net worth of twenty five million.

Curious about the Apple Watch she dresses down to avoid drawing attention at the mall and walks into the Apple Store. There she's greeted by a person that has no clue other than it's a 30 minute appointment.

Enthused and eager to sell a gold watch the Apple minimum wage employee begins talking fashion, a field they have zero experience in, when the women only wants to talk about how the Watch works.

Thirty minutes is not as long as it sounds, there's hardly time for a complete presentation of the watch.

Apple is clearly out of their element here, but the Apple Faithful will never admit that until the slap of reality hits once the Watch is in stores...

Your story is funny but sounds highly improbable. First, why would the employee even talk fashion unless the customer hinted in that direction? I've shopped at many fine retail stores here in SoCal and I also worked at a fine men's boutique in Newport many years ago. The only time you dispense fashion advice is when asked. Clothing is a bit different because you have regulars, so when something really sweet comes in you might alert the customer about it, but in most cases you're discussing fit.

And by the way, the fine men's boutique also had a women's boutique and I often worked there too and women would often ask my opinion and other than a nice voice and warm smile I had no fashion training yet customers appreciated the input.

 

[jwball]

Thanks for the hyperbole but your analogy is way off base. As others have said, fashion is very subjective and the retail store employees are there to guide you in terms of proper size and fit. But back to your silly analogy, there is a much greater chance an Apple Store employee has studied or worked in a fashion environment than a plumber having gone to med school and studied neurology.

If they'd studied fashion surely they'd be working in Fashion?
The original thread was based on fashion advice, not size and fit.

Surely the wearer knows if something fits correctly?

 

[bunnicula]

If they'd studied fashion surely they'd be working in Fashion?
The original thread was based on fashion advice, not size and fit.

Surely the wearer knows if something fits correctly?

The original premise of this thread is flawed in the first place. Nobody in retail, even high-end retail, is dispensing unsolicited fashion advice. If customers choose to ask for advice, they get whatever the employee has been trained to tell the customer. Are there exceptions to this rule? Sure. But, that's usually how shopping works.

 

[ninethirty]

Snobbish isn't the right word for that. It's just not smart. Apple's literally trying to insert themselves in with the likes of Rolex, Panerai, AP, etc because they sell a watch and decided to make it in gold. Reality is, Apple has no horological legacy, they don't own or haven't created any kind of in house movement, and they haven't designed a product that will retain its (or appreciate in) value over time. Someone here asked me the other day how this is any different from Burberry selling a $12k watch and the answer is, it isn't. The Burberry buy is just as stupid as the Apple Edition buy. The difference is, Burberry is an established fashion brand that actually makes extremely high quality stuff that tends to be in the same price range. If they made a watch and sold it for cheap, it would devalue the brand (if you want proof of this, look up chavs, and how they nearly destroyed the Burberry brand). Why they make a watch, I don't know, but I highly doubt they're big sellers. Anyway, I'm getting away from the point. Apple isn't being snobbish, they're just deluded about who they are.

I'm sure plenty of people think Apple is snobbish for offering a $10K-$17K watch.

 

[Rogifan]

The original premise of this thread is flawed in the first place. Nobody in retail, even high-end retail, is dispensing unsolicited fashion advice. If customers choose to ask for advice, they get whatever the employee has been trained to tell the customer. Are there exceptions to this rule? Sure. But, that's usually how shopping works.

The premise of the OP was to say it's snobbish to suggest an Apple Store employee shouldn't be providing fashion "advice" because of the way they look/dress or because they're minimum wage employees, etc. Some people will know exactly what they want, others will be unsure. I don't think you need special qualifications to give some advice or help the customer make a decision.

Serenity Caldwell who writes for iMore has worked at Apple retail stores and she said retail employees are trained NOT to start with price e.g. "how much are you looking to spend". It will be the same with the watch. So it only makes sense that retail employees would be provided tips on how to steer the conversation.

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Snobbish isn't the right word for that. It's just not smart. Apple's literally trying to insert themselves in with the likes of Rolex, Panerai, AP, etc because they sell a watch and decided to make it in gold. Reality is, Apple has no horological legacy, they don't own or haven't created any kind of in house movement, and they haven't designed a product that will retain its (or appreciate in) value over time. Someone here asked me the other day how this is any different from Burberry selling a $12k watch and the answer is, it isn't. The Burberry buy is just as stupid as the Apple Edition buy. The difference is, Burberry is an established fashion brand that actually makes extremely high quality stuff that tends to be in the same price range. If they made a watch and sold it for cheap, it would devalue the brand (if you want proof of this, look up chavs, and how they nearly destroyed the Burberry brand). Why they make a watch, I don't know, but I highly doubt they're big sellers. Anyway, I'm getting away from the point. Apple isn't being snobbish, they're just deluded about who they are.

Well if you're right then no one will buy the Edition watches and Apple will quietly discontinue them. In the grand scheme of things the Edition watch doesn't really matter and it gets way too much media/blog attention IMO.

 

[ninethirty]

I am right, and I doubt the Edition will last 2 years. It'll be a failure after 1, but Apple's not really one to put it's tail between it's legs, so it'll quietly go away after a few. Apple's trying to mix oil and water, and despite what the fanboys would like to think, it's just not going to happen.

The premise of the OP was to say it's snobbish to suggest an Apple Store employee shouldn't be providing fashion "advice" because of the way they look/dress or because they're minimum wage employees, etc. Some people will know exactly what they want, others will be unsure. I don't think you need special qualifications to give some advice or help the customer make a decision.

Serenity Caldwell who writes for iMore has worked at Apple retail stores and she said retail employees are trained NOT to start with price e.g. "how much are you looking to spend". It will be the same with the watch. So it only makes sense that retail employees would be provided tips on how to steer the conversation.

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Well if you're right then no one will buy the Edition watches and Apple will quietly discontinue them. In the grand scheme of things the Edition watch doesn't really matter and it gets way too much media/blog attention IMO.

 

[Rogifan]

I am right, and I doubt the Edition will last 2 years. It'll be a failure after 1, but Apple's not really one to put it's tail between it's legs, so it'll quietly go away after a few. Apple's trying to mix oil and water, and despite what the fanboys would like to think, it's just not going to happen.

We'll see. Like I said I think the Edition gets way too much attention, attention from people who could never afford to buy it and would have no interest in buying it even if they could.

 

[bunnicula]

The premise of the OP was to say it's snobbish to suggest an Apple Store employee shouldn't be providing fashion "advice" because of the way they look/dress or because they're minimum wage employees, etc. Some people will know exactly what they want, others will be unsure. I don't think you need special qualifications to give some advice or help the customer make a decision.

Serenity Caldwell who writes for iMore has worked at Apple retail stores and she said retail employees are trained NOT to start with price e.g. "how much are you looking to spend". It will be the same with the watch. So it only makes sense that retail employees would be provided tips on how to steer the conversation.

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Well if you're right then no one will buy the Edition watches and Apple will quietly discontinue them. In the grand scheme of things the Edition watch doesn't really matter and it gets way too much media/blog attention IMO.

I agree with you. Sorry. I think I need coffee. It was the rebuttal to your original post that I disagreed with.

I don't know why so many people are making a big deal about the Edition. I just see it as Apple attempting to break into the luxury watch market by creating a smart watch that's made with luxury elements.

 

[ninethirty]

Maybe. To be honest, the only people talking about it are the people who can't afford it. It's not even on the radar of those who can.

We'll see. Like I said I think the Edition gets way too much attention, attention from people who could never afford to buy it and would have no interest in buying it even if they could.

 

[bunnicula]

Maybe. To be honest, the only people talking about it are the people who can't afford it. It's not even on the radar of those who can.

I don't think that's true. I could buy one if I wanted it. For me, though, a watch isn't worth that much money. I think many people here on MR could buy the Edition if they truly wanted it. I think some of them will buy it.

Outside of this forum, I bet there are a good many people that are aware of and will buy the Edition.

There are simply more who are interested in the Sport and Watch lines.

Which is what Apple planned for already.

I think the loud noises you may here online are coming from people who don't like Apple putting forth a product they cannot afford/cannot easily afford. I like the look of the rose gold Edition, but it's more than I'm willing to spend on a watch. I'm not remotely bothered that it's more, though.

 

[Rogifan]

Maybe. To be honest, the only people talking about it are the people who can't afford it. It's not even on the radar of those who can.

And you're basing this on?

 

[Patriot24]

The media and members of this community have blown things way out of proportion. Every retail store trains their employees how to interact with customers. Such training always includes common questions to ask that will expose more information to help the customer make a decision. Pretty basic stuff.

The real issue here is the word "fashion". People are getting defensive because all of a sudden they're realizing that the world of tech that they like to live in is being co-opted to include a fashion focus.

For years tech nuts yearned and advocated for technology to become mainstream and change the world. That has happened, but they cannot reconcile the fact that when something becomes mainstream that it is opened to influence of the said mainstream.

In short, people can't/won't deal with the notion that this product is about more than just being a geeky tech toy. Should've been careful what you wished for.

 

[ninethirty]

I'm one of them. I know a lot of people who regularly spend a lot of money on so called "luxury" goods. Large amounts of disposable income and great taste. We all love Apple products, and couldn't care less about the Edition. Is that definitive proof? No, but I'm telling you, I don't know a single person who's planning to buy one, and I do know people who easily spend this kind of money like it's no big deal.

I'm not talking about "I could swing 10k I suppose," I'm talking "I could spend 10k right now and not even worry about how that affects my finances at all."

Mark my words. The Edition won't be selling well. Apple might spin it as a "wow, it's sold out always," but that'll be because they're making hardly any of them.

But let's get to the bottom of what's really going on here. Why is it so hard for the Apple faithful to say "Hey, I really like this watch, but the gold one at 10x + the price is stupid." I haven't heard a single good rationalization for why Edition exists, or why it'll be popular. Not one. If I hear one, I might be inclined to change my position on this, but nobody has rationalized it yet.

And you're basing this on?

 

[rjlawrencejr]

If they'd studied fashion surely they'd be working in Fashion?
The original thread was based on fashion advice, not size and fit.

Surely the wearer knows if something fits correctly?

I take it you've never worked retail.

I think the reason the conversation turned to size and fit is because retail associates don't dispense much fashion advice (if any at all). Their primary function is to answer questions.

Again, it sounds as if you've never worked retail.

 

[Arran]

I think the loud noises you may here online are coming from people who don't like Apple putting forth a product they cannot afford/cannot easily afford...

I suspect I may be one of these "loud noises", but my concern is not affordability. It's not that personal. I'm simply trying to figure out what the Edition's purpose is. If it's purpose is to offer a fashionable gold finish, that could be achieved with high quality gold plating that has a life well in excess of the electronics it would surround. That would be sensible, practical and affordable by Apple's mainstream customers. It would fulfill a role.

So I'm starting to think the Edition was never intended to be sold at all. Even the pricing is a suspiciously round $10,000.00 and $7,000.00 for the strap (none of Apple's usual $9999 and $6999 pricing malarkey to make it look better value). I'm thinking the Edition is akin to a shop-fitting, an in-store advertising panel or those nice limestone slabs on the floor: Intended to make the store look and feel upscale, but not actually for sale.

 

[bunnicula]

I suspect I may be one of these "loud noises", but my concern is not affordability. It's not that personal. I'm simply trying to figure out what the Edition's purpose is. If it's purpose is to offer a fashionable gold finish, that could be achieved with high quality gold plating that has a life well in excess of the electronics it would surround. That would be sensible, practical and affordable by Apple's mainstream customers. It would fulfill a role.

So I'm starting to think the Edition was never intended to be sold at all. Even the pricing is a suspiciously round $10,000.00 and $7,000.00 for the strap (none of Apple's usual $9999 and $6999 pricing malarkey to make it look better value). I'm thinking the Edition is akin to a shop-fitting, an in-store advertising panel or those nice limestone slabs on the floor: Intended to make the store look and feel upscale, but not actually for sale.

Apple is attempting to attract luxury watch buyers. I'm not talking about people who own one somewhat-luxury type of watch. Hell, I own a Tag and it's just a "really nice, higher-end sort of a regular watch." I hardly ever wear it.

Apple isn't targeting me with the Edition. They're targeting people who regularly drop large sums of cash on watches just because they can and do want to impress their friends and associates with how much they blow on such purchases. Those are the majority of people who will buy it. Along with some collectors who might want to add this into their collection because none of us really know if it might not be VERY valuable one day if the Apple Watch either tanks or takes off like crazy. It's still first generation.

Do I think they made the kind of volume for these that they've made for the Watch and Sport lines? No. I don't. But, the purpose of these wasn't to sell them to the typical Apple customer. It was to get them on the wrists of people who'd pay very high dollar amounts to be seen wearing the top of the line tech wearable and people who just have a ton (more than most of us who have a good chunk of disposable income have) of disposable income and think that the Edition watches are more attractive than the other models.

I think it's as simple as that, and they will sell quite a few before they start offering some more moderately-priced watches that are designed to fill that huge void between 1100 and 10K.

In fact, if Apple ever drops the price on something, it'll be the bands and the previous gen models of the phone once they bring out the new versions.

I don't see them dropping the price of these like they did the iPhone. People were used to buying subsidized phones and they had to lure people to buy unsubsidized. Nobody is used to buying a subsidized watch so it makes more sense not to lower the price of the watch itself, but to lower the price of accessories... or, more to the point, to offer other accessories that are more affordable than what they've got now, then slowly phase out the more expensive accessories if they're not selling well.

I do hear you about not wanting it yet being a person who'll drop a good amount on luxury items or just stuff you really wanted because you can afford it. We do that same sort of thing in my household.

I can tell you that if I drop 10K on a single thing to wear this year, it'll be diamonds, not an Apple Watch. I do love fine jewelry. I do not consider the Apple Edition model of watch to be "fine jewelry" and since I'm not a watch lover, this product wasn't made with me in mind.