Forbes: Frustrated Tim Cook Reveals Disappointing MacBook Pro Delay

[leman]

But you can't really take a grinder and shave off two cores if they're faulty. Prior to coffee lake i5 was probably a lower binned i7, but not now, they're different dies.

Chip manufacturers have shipped units with defective core disabled for decades... this is most common with GPUs. For instance, a RTX2060 is actually a “broken” 2070. As far as I know, there are three physical CPU dies in Coffee Lake: with 4,6,8 cores. They all come with full 12mb cache and 24eu GPU, but parts are disabled on user-shipped configs.

Fir example, a 6-core die shipped as 4-core config: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i3/i3-8300

 

[pshufd]

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/can-you-disable-cpu-cores-in-osx.1698844/

 

[Queen6]

Apple is a key user of Intel's more premium chips though. All other major laptop manufacturers rely on the cheaper chips (essentially production rejects) for the bulk of their models. So a shortage in high-quality chips is going to hit Apple harder than most.

Then you can show us your Premium CPU performance...

What a load of elitist nonsense, vast majority of notebook manufacturers are using exactly the same CPU's. Only one that is a little different is the 13" MBP with a 28W TDP. What's more laughable is Apple is incapable of fully utilising "Premium" Hex core i7/i9 CPU's and that's a fact...

What is different is other OEM's have larger ranges where U series CPU's make more sense in terms of power & performance, nor are they inferior as you like to imply. They simply serve a different need. Apple was so very concerned with CPU performance it's computers would have adequate cooling and new Air wouldn't be stuck with a 7W Y series CPU.

Mac sales are likely down for the basic common sense reasons; reliability has declined and pricing increased in the face of stiff competition. As with all major multinationals they keep their own council and rarely disclose the truth of the matter as it's generally not in their own best interests.

Q-6

 

[leman]

What a load of elitist nonsense, vast majority of notebook manufacturers are using exactly the same CPU's. Only one that is a little different is the 13" MBP with a 28W TDP.

I though you were an engineer? You of all people should have at least some understanding to how CPUs are made and configured...

What's more laughable is Apple is incapable of fully utilising "Premium" Hex core i7/i9 CPU's and that's a fact...

Neither is your gaming laptop. If you want to fully utilise it, go buy a MSI Titan or something. Or even better, a desktop computer (they come shipped with an identical CPU).

 

[Thysanoptera]

Chip manufacturers have shipped units with defective core disabled for decades... this is most common with GPUs. For instance, a RTX2060 is actually a “broken” 2070. As far as I know, there are three physical CPU dies in Coffee Lake: with 4,6,8 cores. They all come with full 12mb cache and 24eu GPU, but parts are disabled on user-shipped configs.

Fir example, a 6-core die shipped as 4-core config: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i3/i3-8300

Yes, of course this is normal practice, but I was pointing out that coffee lakes have different die sizes. Your link: i3-8300 has 126 mm2. There is no desktop 126 mm2 6 core die, or at least I couldn't find any. Cache size, clock and HT - yes, but not core count.

Unless Intel swaps dies between mobile and desktop SKUs, there are 6 core mobile i5, 8500B and 8400B that have 126 mm2 dies. But, at least according to their own marketing materials, the binning is done once the die is on package, and mobile have different packages than desktops plus the mainstream 6 core mobile i7 have 149 mm2.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, there’s loads of processors under each of those umbrella terms (i5-Xxxxxx).

We're discussing scenario when 6-core i7 becomes 4-core i5 or i3.

EDIT : I think the die sizes on wikichip are wrong, the B series is supposed to be exactly the same as desktop versions just placed in BGA package. So they should also be 149 mm2. If this is wrong maybe all the others are wrong, and my whole post doesn't make sense.

 

[pallymore]

Apple is a key user of Intel's more premium chips though. All other major laptop manufacturers rely on the cheaper chips (essentially production rejects) for the bulk of their models. So a shortage in high-quality chips is going to hit Apple harder than most.

That doesn't make sense at all.

There are plenty of i9 laptops out there and those CPUs are essentially identical to what Apple uses in their top of the line models. As long as the model numbers are the same we should expect the same quality.

I though you were an engineer? You of all people should have at least some understanding to how CPUs are made and configured...

Neither is your gaming laptop. If you want to fully utilise it, go buy a MSI Titan or something. Or even better, a desktop computer (they come shipped with an identical CPU).

Hmm are you saying it is totally OK for Apple to buy "premium" CPUs but not allowing users to fully utilize them? So in summary: Apple sold fewer units because of Intel cannot produce enough premium CPUs that MBPs cannot utilize in the first place.

 

[Queen6]

I though you were an engineer? You of all people should have at least some understanding to how CPUs are made and configured...

I am, and I do understand. Apple is primarily using the 28W CPU for the graphics package. You just like to imply something else so you can feel better about Mac's and attempt to make others feel inferior. There's nothing special or premium about Apple's current choice of CPU, which is obvious to all, as they are all "off the shelf items".

Neither is your gaming laptop. If you want to fully utilise it, go buy a MSI Titan or something. Or even better, a desktop computer (they come shipped with an identical CPU).

If you can get better performance out of an H series mobile i7 2.2GHz 8750H good luck (six cores solid 3.9GHz). Care to share your MBP's i9 score? Sure that will be a NO given Apple's thermal/power constraints and subsequent poor performance. Then we'll see whose notebook can fully utilise it's CPU or not...

Q-6

 

[LogicalApex]

premium CPUs that MBPs cannot utilize in the first place.

I'm not sure why people keep saying this.... What do you mean it can't utilize it? That it can run at max turbo indefinitely? Apple doesn't engineer their machines to be a desktop replacement... But that doesn't mean it can't utilize the Intel CPUs they are shipping in their devices.

 

[leman]

Yes, of course this is normal practice, but I was pointing out that coffee lakes have different die sizes. Your link: i3-8300 has 126 mm2. There is no desktop 126 mm2 6 core die, or at least I couldn't find any. Cache size, clock and HT - yes, but not core count.

You are right, I misread that wiki. The i3-8300 is based on the quad-core die, not the 6-core. Sorry for confusion. There are examples of 2-core CPUs which are based on the quad-core die with two cores disabled, but they are not that relevant to our discussion.

The CPUs which are probably most relevant to Apple are the Iris Plus chips they use in the 13" models, since they seem to be the only customer who uses them. Maybe that is the CPU they are referring to?

 

[magbarn]

What shortage is Timmy talking about? Every standard configuration of macbook pro is available in a week or as a walk in basis at an Apple Store. It'd be different if there were constant backlogs on the MBP...

Tons of PC laptops available with i7/i9's all day long also.

Poor Intel being made the scapegoat again.

Cough up and admit that your buyers are tired of the price gouging and crappy "may"die keyboards...

The shortages I was seeing a few months ago were in desktop CPU's likely i7/i9 octacore chips. Those were in short supply...

 

[Thysanoptera]

The CPUs which are probably most relevant to Apple are the Iris Plus chips they use in the 13" models, since they seem to be the only customer who uses them. Maybe that is the CPU they are referring to?

Not only that. Intel admitted that they focus on higher end processors. in Tim's own words the mac sales growth was boosted mostly by MBA, but the Amber Lakes are at the bottom of Intel's pecking order, 13 inch MBP requires CPU almost exclusively made for them from separate wafers (the 4 cores + GT3e) and the only machine they probably have plenty of CPUs for are the hopelessly overpriced 15''. So the shortages are not because of 'premium' CPUs required by Apple (if anything - the exact opposite, the shortages are affecting mostly mid and low-end CPUs), but their inability or - more likely - unwillingness to adjust to market conditions and the feud with Nvidia. And on top of that - they're about to switch to own CPUs, so Intel has little incentive to increase Apple market share now and Apple doesn't want to experiment with alternative, short term solutions.

Windows market adjusts, the Iris Pro has died, replaced by the likes of MX130/MX250, or CPUs bundled with Vega. Not enough Intels? - let's put Ryzens inside etc. Apple is not going to do it now.
[doublepost=1556923984][/doublepost]

What shortage is Timmy talking about? Every standard configuration of macbook pro is available in a week or as a walk in basis at an Apple Store. It'd be different if there were constant backlogs on the MBP...

We'll never know. I don't discount the possibility that Tim is lying, but I'm sure he has to be careful with what he says publicly. Intel has issues, no question about it, the PC market shrunk 2% due to Intel's production problems (although on Windows this would be bigger if not for AMD) - how much that affected Apple - I don't know.

 

[Queen6]

We'll never know. I don't discount the possibility that Tim is lying, but I'm sure he has to be careful with what he says publicly. Intel has issues, no question about it, the PC market shrunk 2% due to Intel's production problems (although on Windows this would be bigger if not for AMD) - how much that affected Apple - I don't know.

As with all people at this level statements and responses are very carefully measured. There is likely a seed of truth, equally Apple or it's representative's are not going to publicly disclose exact details. As ever Occam's razor can be applied sales are likely being impacted by reduced reliability, increased pricing and the general flatlining of the market.

As iPhone sales are allegedly down Apple may be more inclined to put more effort into the Mac as it's sales are relatively stable which to be frank is good for all concerned. If not Apple risks another product line suffering a significant drop and with the awareness of the Butterfly Keyboards fragility rising, sooner rather than later would be appropriate.

Q-6

 

[Falhófnir]

I think you're misunderstanding the statement Apple is making. Apple is saying that they suffered a decline due to an inability to make enough Macs to satisfy demand. They note that Intel was unable to ship enough processors to them so they were unable to manufacture enough to sell...

You're saying that demand is soft due to people being unwilling to buy Macs due to reliability declines which differs from what's being said by Apple.

With satisfactory yield being a big problem for intel with 10nm, I'm starting to think we might not ever see one in a mac even if they do launch later this year...

 

[Mendota]

Apple is a key user of Intel's more premium chips though. All other major laptop manufacturers rely on the cheaper chips (essentially production rejects) for the bulk of their models. So a shortage in high-quality chips is going to hit Apple harder than most.

It amazes me how you just make up things. This is in no way true. What is the matter with you? Lenovo, Dell, HP, Microsoft all make premium brands and they are not using "reject" parts. Do you actually believe these things you make up?

 

[pshufd]

It amazes me how you just make up things. This is in no way true. What is the matter with you? Lenovo, Dell, HP, Microsoft all make premium brands and they are not using "reject" parts. Do you actually believe these things you make up?

Availability for base processors has been fine for MacBook Pros this year. The upgrade processors take longer but you got longer times for most BTO options including SSD, RAM and Discrete Graphics. BTW, Dell's gaming brand is Alienware. HPs is Omen. Asus' gaming brand is Republic of Gaming.

 

[bruinsrme]

Don’t pretend you don’t know what binning is, you’re one of the most technologically literate people on these forums.

I am pretty sure it is not a solely bin but a completely different stepping/revision.

 

[LogicalApex]

It amazes me how you just make up things. This is in no way true. What is the matter with you? Lenovo, Dell, HP, Microsoft all make premium brands and they are not using "reject" parts. Do you actually believe these things you make up?

I haven't done any research to see what Apple uses across their lines (too busy with other stuff), but the way I interpreted his statement was that Apple uses Intel higher end chips across their whole (or majority) of their product lines. As a result, they get impacted by the shortages more so than other OEMs who sell wider variety of Intel chips, but their primary sales are lower end machines which use chips that are possibly binned differently.

I'd imagine that Apple is also impacted by the fact they sell a lot of devices in their stores which requires them to have machines built and in stock. The same is true for their sales through authorized resellers. Dell sells a lot of their machines online and they do a great job of building once the order comes in to keep costs low.

 

[pshufd]

I haven't done any research to see what Apple uses across their lines (too busy with other stuff), but the way I interpreted his statement was that Apple uses Intel higher end chips across their whole (or majority) of their product lines. As a result, they get impacted by the shortages more so than other OEMs who sell wider variety of Intel chips, but their primary sales are lower end machines which use chips that are possibly binned differently.

I'd imagine that Apple is also impacted by the fact they sell a lot of devices in their stores which requires them to have machines built and in stock. The same is true for their sales through authorized resellers. Dell sells a lot of their machines online and they do a great job of building once the order comes in to keep costs low.

Apple's low-end stuff is in stores. If you want the faster processors, you have to choose build-to-order. There are Windows companies that build only high-end laptops and they have specs far higher than what Apple offers.

Here's an example:

https://www.hidevolution.com/evoc-h...0k-i7-9700k-i9-9900k-rtx-2070-2080.html?ref=1

 

[Mendota]

I haven't done any research to see what Apple uses across their lines (too busy with other stuff), but the way I interpreted his statement was that Apple uses Intel higher end chips across their whole (or majority) of their product lines. As a result, they get impacted by the shortages more so than other OEMs who sell wider variety of Intel chips, but their primary sales are lower end machines which use chips that are possibly binned differently.

I'd imagine that Apple is also impacted by the fact they sell a lot of devices in their stores which requires them to have machines built and in stock. The same is true for their sales through authorized resellers. Dell sells a lot of their machines online and they do a great job of building once the order comes in to keep costs low.

Well that would make more sense. Apple hasn't reported any shortages publicly and having something "tucked away in notes" without making a formal statement is a little suspect, speaking of Tim and the original point of the post.

 

[LogicalApex]

Apple's low-end stuff is in stores. If you want the faster processors, you have to choose build-to-order. There are Windows companies that build only high-end laptops and they have specs far higher than what Apple offers.

Here's an example:

https://www.hidevolution.com/evoc-h...0k-i7-9700k-i9-9900k-rtx-2070-2080.html?ref=1

Absolutely, Apple doesn't sell Intel's highest end chips of course. And I'm not saying I agree with that guy as I haven't done any digging into the yield on chips Apple use. Was offering a bit more context for clarity.

Intel does have a shortage, but I'd imagine they are also prioritizing higher margin chips over lower margin ones. So unless a lower end chip can be created purely due to binning I don't see Intel pumping out more i3s than i7s or whatnot. In a shortage you squeeze more profits out of the market not less...

 

[Kevbasscat]

What shortage is Timmy talking about? Every standard configuration of macbook pro is available in a week or as a walk in basis at an Apple Store. It'd be different if there were constant backlogs on the MBP...

Tons of PC laptops available with i7/i9's all day long also.

Poor Intel being made the scapegoat again.

Cough up and admit that your buyers are tired of the price gouging and crappy "may"die keyboards...

The shortages I was seeing a few months ago were in desktop CPU's likely i7/i9 octacore chips. Those were in short supply...

And most likely the hold up for the iMac refresh correct? I know Apple could have used 8 series for all models, but the substantial performance increase with the i9 does sell.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

Having a 2017 mbp I had been eyeing the iMac.
I was excited to hear there was a refresh coming, while later only being disappointed with the offerings.
It wasn’t the processor as much as the crazy price for the SSD upgrade, as well as the ram.

Don’t blame intel for my purchase of a dell xps, blame the mbp keyboard.

Having worked in a store I will venture to say the majority buying a MacBook or pro came down to price.
Very few sales were based on the processor.

Yeah only people sticking around are those like me who don't wanna move out from MacOS... Heck I'm getting a Mac Mini for work because of this.

 

[PhoneI]

Yeah only people sticking around are those like me who don't wanna move out from MacOS... Heck I'm getting a Mac Mini for work because of this.

data to back that up?

My 2018 MacBook Pro is the best laptop by far I have ever owned.

 

[Jimmy James]

It’s convenient reasoning.

I’m sure that selling disposable, unreliable MacBooks at record high prices has no impact on realized sales.

 

[Mendota]

data to back that up?

My 2018 MacBook Pro is the best laptop by far I have ever owned.

It is still early. I has been the best laptop many have owned... until it isn't.