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Forget California, It's time to recall Microsoft

Well, the PCs all run Windows 2000, so they are about as stable as you can get with a Windows OS. The big problem is the fact that the security programs for the Windows side are a real PITA to deal with and configuring the PCs to network is not nearly as painless as it is to get the Macs to work with the network. As far as the time it takes/number of problems with the computers, it's nearly identical for either. The big problem is just keeping the network connection up since the provider tends to have problems keeping the connection constant. The only problem with the job is that $400 a semester isn't nearly enough money to justify having to deal with configuring the 100+ PCs and working with Windows everyday!
 
"Ahead of the Technology Curve"

-xpormac, etoiles

Despite your fair and well versed words, the facts just don't support your position of Apple not being ahead of the Technology curve.

Apple is the technology curve.

Pretty much everything we take for granted on a PC, was originally pioneered on an Apple or Macintosh and this still holds true today.

Without Apple, it would be doubtful that we'd be even using Firewire (Apple invented), CD-ROMs (Apple pioneered), Mice (Apple pioneered), a GUI (Apple pioneered), or even have a personal computer at all (Apple invented).

It's amazing to see the excitement that the members of the WinTel oligopoly treat a 'new' thing, when Mac users have usually have is for a number of years. WiFi built in seems to be the latest example of this.
 
Re: "Ahead of the Technology Curve"

Originally posted by patrick0brien

Apple is the technology curve.
Click to expand...

I think Apple is more something like the 'usability curve'. They 'invented' the personal computer by making a computer usable and affordable by a larger crowd, they did not invent computers. They pioneered mice and the GUI but did not invent them. Macs might have been the first computers to come standard with a CD-Rom drive (maybe ?) but Apple did not invent them, and they were used on other systems by then. What about IDE, PCI, AGP, USB etc. ? All standard 'PC' technologies used by Apple. I know Apple has made some excellent hardware developments, but it is usually available in some form on PC's as well...

But I don't think that is a problem or even the question here. Let other companies develop new technologies and let Apple focus on the integration...develop products from a user perspective, asking 'why ?' before 'how ?'. Make things better by design. Like the iPod, for example. And everything software of course.

This means that macs will probably never lead the race from a purely technical point of view (speed, latest 'gimmicks'...) but chances are they will always provide for a better user experience.
 
Re: Re: "Ahead of the Technology Curve"

Originally posted by etoiles
I think Apple is more something like the 'usability curve'. They 'invented' the personal computer by making a computer usable and affordable by a larger crowd, they did not invent computers. They pioneered mice and the GUI but did not invent them. Macs might have been the first computers to come standard with a CD-Rom drive (maybe ?) but Apple did not invent them, and they were used on other systems by then. What about IDE, PCI, AGP, USB etc. ? All standard 'PC' technologies used by Apple. I know Apple has made some excellent hardware developments, but it is usually available in some form on PC's as well...
Click to expand...

-etoiles

Almost true. Useability simply means that they took someone else's idea and made in for useable through either accessibility of user friendlyness.

However, this is not the case I was making.

Your statements about IDE, PCI, And AGP are correct, they saw that Intel's solutions were better?/easier? and integrated them, and they became more useable as a result of the pairing with the OS.

However, it is an historcal fact that Apple - well Steves Jobs and Wozniak actually invented the personal computer. Before then all that there was were minicomputers like the Altair. It's written in the library of congress.

Also Apple Invented the CD-ROM via messing with a CD player. Of course, this is one such device that someone else would have thought of too - I'll conced that.

Apple invented FireWire from the ground up in 1986. And they were a member of the board that drew up USB - so they "Invented" their little part. And they were the first to mass market it.

We can split hairs as to who invented what, we could say that Apple didn't really invent FireWire because they "integrated" parts like Copper wires, insulation and binary code that were all invented by others before. So I have to strongly disagree with your "Useability" argument, as Apple had the forethought to put ideas together and sell them long before others.

So, here's a list, feel free to look it up if you think I'm being a fanatic. Others on this board know very well, I speak often from facts, so good luck.

Note: This is a fairly comprehensive list, and is continually developing, so if you have a correction or addition, please let me know, and provide me sources to verify. This list actually starts with the abacus, but for the sake of your eyes, I though I'd clip it at the start of this lovely medium we're using...

Year: 1968
Event: First Appearance Of The Modern GUI
Entity: Douglas Englebart
Notes: Mouse, Keyboard, Keypad, Window Heirarchy

Year: 1969
Event: ARPANET
Entity: U.S. D.O.D. A.R.P.A
Notes: Foundation of the Internet

Year: 1971
Event: Advent of E-Mail
Entity: Ray Tomlinson, Principal Engineer, BBN Technologies
Notes: New use of the @ symbol

Year: 1971
Event: First Microprocessor
Entity: Intel
Notes: 4004 at 60kHz

Year: 1972
Event: First Video Game
Entity: Atari
Notes: Pong

Year: 1972
Event: Start of the Video Game industry
Entity: Atari
Notes: June 28, 1972

Year: 1973
Event: Advent of Ethernet
Entity: Bob Metcalfe

Year: 1974
Event: First Microcomputer
Entity: MITS
Notes: Altair 8800

Year: 1975
Event: Incorporation of Micro-Soft (Later Microsoft)
Entity: Bill Gates/Paul Allen

Year: 1976
Event: Incorporation of Apple Computer
Entity: Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniac

Year: 1976
Event: First Personal Computer
Entity: Jobs/Wozniac

Year:???
Event: Invention of the Laser Disc
Entity:???

Year: 1979
Event: First Modern Spreadsheet
Entity: Personal Software
Notes: VisiCalc for the Apple II

Year: 1979
Event: Advent of the Compact Disc (CD)
Entity:???

Year: 1981
Event: First Portable Computer
Entity: Osborne

Year: 1981
Event: First GUI-based OS available to purchase
Entity: Xerox PARC
Notes: Star Information System - Designed for Workstations. Steve Jobs paid Xerox for employees to help him Develop what would later be the first commecial GUI - the Mac OS

Year: 1981
Event: First Mainstream OS
Entity: Microsoft
Notes: DOS (Disk Operating System) Largest of three codebases purchased from Seattle Computer Products, all combined to make up DOS.

Year: 1982
Event: Definition and first use of an Emoticon, called a Smiley :)
Entity: Scott E. Fahlman
Notes: Sept. 19, 1982, at Carnegie Mellon University

Year: 1983
Event: First Commercial Mouse
Entity: Mouse Microsystems
Notes: Built for the IBM PC

Year: 1983
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer GUI
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Original paradigm purchased from Xerox PARC and reworked for consumer LISA, eventually became the MacOS

Year: 1983
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer Mouse
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: For the LISA

Year: 1984
Event: Introduction Of The Macintosh
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: The successful version of the LISA

Year: 1985
Event: Introduction of Windows
Entity: Microsoft

Year: 1986
Event: First RISC Microprocessor
Entity: John Cocke/IBM Reseach
Notes: ROMP

Year: 1986
Event: FireWire Invented
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Later to be granted the standard 1394 in 1995 by the IEEE

Year: 1988
Event: First CD-ROM Player
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Introduced in March

Year: 1989
Event: Introduction of HTML and the World Wide Web
Entity: Tim Berners-Lee of CERN
Notes: Considered the Father of the modern Internet

Year: 1989
Event: First Modern RISC Microprocessor
Entity: Intel
Notes: i860

Year: 1991
Event: First Built-In CD-ROM
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Centris Line

Year: 1991
Event: First Built-In Video In-Out
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Quadra 800/AV

Year: 1991
Event: First Mainstream Voice Recognition (Standard in OS)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Quadra 800/AV

Year: 1993
Event: First Personal Digital Assistant (PDA)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Newton MessagePad 100. BONUS: Term PDA Coined by then Apple CEO John Sculley a year before at the 1992 Consumer Electronics Show.

Year: 1993
Event: First Device Using Handwriting Recognition As Primary Means Of Data Entry
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Newton MessagePad 100.

Year: 1993
Event: First Web Browser Launched: World Wide Web Enters Mainstream
Entity: NCSA (w/Marc Andreessen)
Notes: Mosaic. Alpha in January, Beta in March, Launch in April

Year: 1994
Event: First Trackpad
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: PowerBook 500 Line

Year: 1994
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer RISC chipset
Entity: AIM (Apple, IBM, Motorola Alliance)
Notes: PowerPC 601 Chip for the Apple PowerMac Line

Year: 1995
Event: FireWire Adopted By The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Assigned standard number 1394

Year: 1996
Event: Advent of the DVD: The first DVD player is released in Japan
Notes: November 6th 1996

Year: 1998
Event: First Built-In DVD ROM
Entity:???

Year: 1999
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer Supercomputer
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G4 Yikes Line (400MHz @ 3.2GFLOPS classified as Supercomputer By U.S. Gov't: [>1GFLOPs])

Year: 1999
Event: First Mainstream [Built-In] Use of Wireless Networking using 802.11 (b specifically) Across all product lines
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Branded AirPort. Antennae built into all Apple Computers as standard equipment, and software into OS.

Year: 2000
Video Editing Becomes Basic Available Feature
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: iMovie

Year: 2000
Event: First Mainstream UNIX platform designed for use by end users
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: OS X

Year: 2001
Event: First Built-In Consumer DVD Burning Capability
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G4 Minitower intoduced 1/9/01 as MWSF with Superdrive and iDVD

Year: 2003
Event: First 64-Bit Microprocessor-Based Desktop Personal Computer
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G5 with the IBM PowerPC 970 Processor, 1Ghz Frontside Bus and Hyperthreading, Introduced 6/23

Year: 2003
Event: First Personal Computer with Built-In Optical Audio ports
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Afore-mentioned G5. Introduced 6/23
 
hehe, thanks for the list. Very impressive...

Ok, we agree that Apple does a great job at pushing new technologies.

But I cannot help making some comments regarding your list. I just like to play devil's advocate ;) :

"First Mainstream/Consumer Supercomputer" was it really the first 'consumer' computer to break the 1GFlop barrier ? I remember some controversy at the time already (might be another one of those definition problems, see below).

"First Mainstream [Built-In] Use of Wireless Networking using 802.11 (b specifically) Across all product lines" Well, let's say wireless networking is encouraged. Because to be honest, I still need to buy a card, just like for the PC...even if the ease of use makes a big difference.

"First Mainstream UNIX platform designed for use by end users" Ok, but I could also say 'about time they came out with a modern OS !'

"First 64-Bit Microprocessor-Based Desktop Personal Computer" A familiar one. A Boxxtech running an Opteron ($2391) is a workstation of course, while a 1.6 G5 with the same amount of ram ($2374) and slightly bigger size is a Desktop Personal Computer...yeah right.

"First Personal Computer with Built-In Optical Audio ports" Maybe, but you can buy PC's with an optical audio port card (as cheap as $19). Integration vs. upgradeability/flexibility, there is pros and cons.

again, just playing ...ehm...the devil himself.

:p
 
If folks are interested in another excellent resource for Apple firsts (in addition to our own superb historian, patrick0brian), Scott Kelby's book, Macintosh...the Naked Truth covers lots of stuff (like printing standards) that Apple pioneered.

The book is a great look at what it's like to be a Mac user -- the good and the ... well ... the price we pay for the good, from someone who has a wealth of Mac experience. (And it's got some good ammo for those Mac-vs-PC pissing contests, too!)

Book stores carry it, so if you think that Kelby is too big for his britches (what with Mac Design Magazine, his free Photoshop talks at the Apple Store in Soho, etc.) then you can just stiff him the $20 and page through it. I bought one and "conveniently" leave it out for company.
 
Originally posted by idea_hamster
I would be interested to know too. I did a quick check of Microsoft's latest Form 10-Q filed with the SEC (their May quarterly report). The report doesn't mention Apple Computer or AAPL (Apple's ticker symbol), nor does it give asset details on the balance sheet. :shrug:
Click to expand...

[Sorry for quoting from so far back in the thread!] You may have better luck checking the Apple 10-K to see if they mention significant holdings by MSFT.

Also, does anyone know folks who work in the Evil Empire? Are they brainwashed? I have two buddies who work there, and they are both brainwashed, thinking that Microsoft is innocent in everything, and of course, the best. ("What, another virus? Oh, man! After we put out a patch and everything too!").

So I was talking with one of these buddies recently, and of course I had to tip-toe around the fact that I'm a mac loyalist. And we were talking about the SoBig F virus, and I said, "Well, I'll just stick with my mac, thank you." She goes, "Ooh-kay! You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" You know what came next....of course, she was oblivious to Safari, and how it kicks butt. I'd abandoned IE ages ago, when the first Safari BETA came out! (I can't knock on the other friend too much, 'cause he works on mac products -- part of that investment deal to keep mac-platform products alive)

I don't think the mentality at MSFT will really change. Oh well, more for us. What I'd do is use macs but invest in MSFT, so we get the best of both worlds -- the ease of the mac, and the money from those who don't know any better.... :D
 
Originally posted by montecristo
She goes, "Ooh-kay! You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" You know what came next....of course, she was oblivious to Safari, and how it kicks butt.
Click to expand...

-montecristo

I've had many dealings with Microsoft corporate and sattelite offices, and I can say withough hesitation that they are some of the most arrogant people I've ever met. And this culture gets more arrogant the farther up the food chain you get.

First off, they are convinced they do nothing wrong, and everybody is out to get them for selfish reasons.

They don't actually have any creativity in their products that I've ever found, it's all rehashes of things done before - in Microsoft code. Ergo they don't "see" Safari.

They aren't "big picture" people for the most part - the Big Picture is reserved for Bill (really). There are so many examples of this. The Getty Images incident is one. The statement that "You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" is one of my new favorites as they aren't updating it for Windows either - because it's no longer to bea stand-alone product!

"Pride cometh before the fall."
 
Originally posted by montecristo
...they are both brainwashed, thinking that Microsoft is innocent in everything, and of course, the best....
Click to expand...
Interesting -- I'm not surprized that they're convinced that MS is actually a computing panacea, but I was kind of taken aback to find out that they hadn't even heard about Safari! Come on!

This isn't a knock on anyone, but I think your friend might have asked herself why they stopped developing IE for Mac -- could it be the same reason that Adobe cut Premier for Mac? That is, Apple decided to co-opt their market space with [insert new Apple product here: Safari, Final Cut Express...].

This reminds me of another thread where I suggested that MS developers seem to write their stuff in some kind of vacuum, oblivious to the capabilities of other computing environments. Hey, I recommend just letting things be with your friend. After all, after a certain age, it can be dangerous to free a mind...;)
 
Originally posted by idea_hamster
This isn't a knock on anyone, but I think your friend might have asked herself why they stopped developing IE for Mac -- could it be the same reason that Adobe cut Premier for Mac? That is, Apple decided to co-opt their market space with [insert new Apple product here: Safari, Final Cut Express...].
Click to expand...

-idea_hamster

I apologize if I wasn't more clear above. There will be no more IE as a standalone product.

Therefore it's developement as an independant product ceases on both Macs and PC's. IE will continue to exists as a part of Windows itself - and because MS doesn't develop OS X, it will disappear on that platform by default.

Most journalists missed this point.

But I love the wat MS spun it as if Apple forced them out with a better product. This is a half truth, Safari is better than IE (hell, any other Mac browser is better anymore), but Apple didn't force anyone - MS is leveraging their monopoly again.
 
Originally posted by patrick0brien
There will be no more IE as a standalone product....IE will continue to exists as a part of Windows itself....
Click to expand...
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.
 
Originally posted by idea_hamster
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.
Click to expand...

well, now that there is a multiplicity of browsers, MS might be able to get away with this...

But you can be the AOL ( =netscape) lawyers will pursue this.
 
Originally posted by idea_hamster
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.
Click to expand...

-idea_hamster

Well, sorta. The original [successfully] prosecuted complaint was on 'tying'. Analogous to if while you were on vacation, someone built an addition to your house. And it was there an waiting for you when you returned.

this is building a whole new house - with the floorspace of that addition built in.

Lawers wishing to persue a new complaint would have to show that there has been new injury due to anticompetitive practices. MS alread lost the first one. So now there is a precident.

If there were a new case, it would be easier to prove due to that precident, and likely there would be actual punishment.

It's a true testament to the depths of arrogance that MS is even coming clost to repeating history - let alone stepping right into the middle of it.
 
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