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Please don't resort to name calling. It's unnecessary. It's also factually incorrect.

http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/

Read the report on auditing. Read their policies. Apple doesn't set all of their policies. But according to Apple - if you want to do business with them, you have to meet criteria. This criteria is being overlooked. Not across the board. But it's being overlooked.
 
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The same can be said for any on-call job here. Why should Apple be ashamed? These people choose to either work for Foxconn or till the fields and wear rags, and it's not Apple's job, nor America's, to police other nations' governments and cultures. "Bring the jobs home" in what factories? With what willing workers? At what costs that will keep their products competitive? Was your computer, television, phone, networking gear, gaming console, cable box, stereo, car, and clothing made by well-treated American workers? And if it was, does it make you feel better that one suburban guy makes enough to keep 25 Chinese workers out of abject poverty?

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So your "moral obligations" mean not caring about just about the only chance these foreign people have to get out of slums, eat regularly, and live in a city? And it also means putting Americans jobs ahead of people who any fool can see are CLEARLY far worse off, because "you don't care"? What an immoral pig.

I'm an immoral pig for wanting to see my own countrymen employed over a foreigner? Really? Typical of a globalist fool to make it look like you're some kind of saint while you don't give a damn about your own country.
 
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Please don't resort to name calling. It's unnecessary. It's also factually incorrect.

http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/

Read the report on auditing. Read their policies. Apple doesn't set all of their policies. But according to Apple - if you want to do business with them, you have to meet criteria. This criteria is being overlooked. Not across the board. But it's being overlooked.

If it's being overlooked somewhere - or almost everywhere, considering how major Foxconn is to their products - you can't really believe that the criteria is the norm. It's the norm Apple publicly wishes to have in order to have unions and human rights organizations off their case.
 
If it's being overlooked somewhere - or almost everywhere, considering how major Foxconn is to their products - you can't really believe that the criteria is the norm. It's the norm Apple publicly wishes to have in order to have unions and human rights organizations off their case.

Of course that website and report are PR spin. I wrote earlier - it's a catch 22. If you're going to promote and have transparency regarding policies - you're going to wind up in the hot seat when you fail to deliver.
 
As was recommended before, listen to the episode with Mike Daisey on This American Life which aired a few weeks ago.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

It was interesting.

When it got to the part where they were talking about a large turnover rate of people quitting and rehired per month. Which is a problem for Chinese companies.

Then the question was asked "What can be done by name manufactures to improve conditions?"

In reality a better way that is proven to be effective, is the workers speaking with their feet. ( By leaving the factory.) This has an effect on better wages, working conditions, dormitories that make it more attractive for the employees.

While exerting pressure from outside companies help, its ultimately from inside of China where this majority of change has to take place.
 
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The intangibles of spoiled western attitudes, work ethic, entitlements, finger-pointing, etc. are a chapter of its own.

And many of you want to pull out this work to bring back to America...where American workers don't even have the ability to do the majority of this work nor the work ethic.

Don't know if you 2 are from America but, wow!, such a disparaging view of American workers while extolling the virtues of Chinese workers. Makes me wonder if you ever read the rest of these forums about the crappy job of performing a simple task like applying thermal paste is being done by these highly skilled, diligent Chinese workers, ha.

As you both pointed out, these workers came straight out of poverty, I wonder how they became so 'skilled'; was it some genetic trait with which they were born? You are both insinuating that American workers are incapable of learning the same tasks that the Chinese did?

If America does not bring back some of the jobs we are out-sourcing, what will happen to the country? Factory jobs have been going out of the country for years, textiles, clothing, IT jobs; what will be left? Folks who don't go into medical fields (which need to be performed locally) can go into the food service industry (also needs to be performed locally).

What a legacy we are leaving for our future.....
 
They can produce products there for the asian market but for goods sold in the US I expect companies to follow certain moral obligations. Period.



I don't care about Chinese jobs I care about American. Apple can build a factory here and make products humanely. Tough **** if their margins aren't as good as they are taking advantage of slave labor.
This goes for all companies not just Apple. Cut the crap and bring the jobs home

What's the incentive?
 
What's the incentive?

I could just say patriotism but Jobs stated before his death that it wasn't his job to do things for this country, sadly a view most American CEOs seem to take.
I would lower the corporate tax rate to 20% and to 15% for companies that produce products in this country with at least 60% domestic content. maybe that would help narrow the cost considering they wouldn't have to ship things from China to here.
 
Anyway one should always take declarations from *former* execs with a grain of salt

My real question is why are they not willing to give their names since they are former execs and where were they when they were at Apple. As execs who are so moral should they have seen it as their duty to call out things as wrong etc

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I could just say patriotism but Jobs stated before his death that it wasn't his job to do things for this country,

That's a tad erroneous. He said that it wasn't Apple (or any single company's) job to fix the country. That the government etc have to play a part in it as well.

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First of all, it's absurd for people to quote how much other folks in other countries make per day without considering their lower expenses,

Excellent point. Foxconn provides room and board for these folks so that's a huge chunk of their expenses covered.

And as you also said, no one is forcing them into this. There's no gun at their heads. They know what they are getting into when they take the job so they need to take some responsibility for their situation.

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In the meantime if Apple made a little less profit then these poor people working in these factories could have better working conditions and better pay.

Because of course we can promise that any extra money being given to Foxconn is most definitely going to go to the workers and not into the pockets of the bosses.
 
Response from the Chinese readers.

Interesting reading. Money quote:

at least those foreign devils* will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth.

Its always hard to know how realistic, or even representative, comments from anonymous posters on internet blogs are. Especially in a place like China, whose Government regularly monitors such activity.

But a lot of the comments had a ring of truth to them. Some were critical of Apple. Many were critical of Government and business officials for allowing such bad conditions to occur. But the overall tenor was one that a) people were glad for the employment and b) Apple was, for the most part, better than the alternatives.

* Foreign Devils: The anonymous China commenter probably used the term Gweilo (鬼佬) - literally "ghost man": A Cantonese slang term for foreigners, with a long history as a racially derogatory slur. However, in more modern use, and especially in parts of Hong Kong, young people of European ancestry use the term affectionally toward each other, in a way similar to that which some African-Americans currently use another common racial slur amongst themselves.

In the context of the original comment, however, I suspect the writer was using an anachronistic term for ironic or comic effect.
 
Why not build a facility to produce Apple products here in America, then give the FoxConn workers first dibs to move to that city and placed in jobs there.

Because US citizens would never stand for thousands of non US folks being allowed to move to the country for the sole purpose of taking jobs 'from us'.
 
I despise when people say such ridiculous things. Sometimes you can only speak freely and openly once you have left, especially after your NDA expires.

I agree with you. I just didn't want to link the whole thing. Also it is a global thing. Apple is unlikely to lead it. I think their concerns are primarily PR based here. As a whole, working conditions and standards need to be addressed either at a global level or at the very least among any companies who wish to sell products within the US and Europe. Keeping the field level would help with this. Prices may go up, or it may stifle the pace of cheap technology, but it's necessary, and eventually things would settle again.

Ultimately, Apple can't afford it. They have dozens of competitors looking to undercut them at every turn, and what you are proposing would raise the price of Apple products to uncompetitive levels.

Apple and competitive pricing are completely unrelated. They charge more on many things. People still buy them. Yes they add value to a lot of it, but there are a lot of trivial accessory items that just get the Apple markup.

No. They don't. Apple doesn't have the "money and power" to do anything about Chinese labour, in China, that is under the mandate of the Chinese government.

Apple can pull out of China, of course. And there goes the neighbourhood.

It needs to be addressed for all corporations so they can't just shop around until they find another country willing to throw its citizens under the bus.

I could just say patriotism but Jobs stated before his death that it wasn't his job to do things for this country, sadly a view most American CEOs seem to take.
I would lower the corporate tax rate to 20% and to 15% for companies that produce products in this country with at least 60% domestic content. maybe that would help narrow the cost considering they wouldn't have to ship things from China to here.

Tax incentives for domestic investments sound like they'd make sense, unlike that tax holiday crap. If they intended to spend the money right away, tax liability would have been much less of an issue.
 
I'm an immoral pig for wanting to see my own countrymen employed over a foreigner? Really? Typical of a globalist fool to make it look like you're some kind of saint while you don't give a damn about your own country.

And one who says that Americans and Chinese people are both humans, giving neither an elevated intrinsic worth makes that person a globalist fool?

Do you say the same thing about Bill Gates' charitable activities in Africa and other poor nations-that he should focus that aid on America and help American citizens before helping other countries' citizens?
 
I don't care about Chinese jobs I care about American. Apple can build a factory here and make products humanely. Tough **** if their margins aren't as good as they are taking advantage of slave labor.
This goes for all companies not just Apple. Cut the crap and bring the jobs home

Ah...so you're fine with screwing another countries workers. That's hypocritical itself.

Secondly, does reading comprehension not apply? The jobs ARE NOT coming back to America due to the skill level of the American worker. They are not skilled enough, educated enough, or motivated enough no does America have the ability to scale up and down as fast as it's Asian counterparts.

Don't know if you 2 are from America but, wow!, such a disparaging view of American workers while extolling the virtues of Chinese workers. Makes me wonder if you ever read the rest of these forums about the crappy job of performing a simple task like applying thermal paste is being done by these highly skilled, diligent Chinese workers, ha.

As you both pointed out, these workers came straight out of poverty, I wonder how they became so 'skilled'; was it some genetic trait with which they were born? You are both insinuating that American workers are incapable of learning the same tasks that the Chinese did?

I'm American and live right in D.C. You should see the entitled kids coming out of college expecting everything to be handed to them and this is in the skilled sector.

You should see the workers at the local fast food places and stores...never seen such a lazy bunch of American teenagers. It's rampant all over the local area. Even my parents see it at stores and restaurants. And they even talk about how this generation has lost any pride with any job they have.

You know the places that have workers that have good work ethics...they happen to be the fast food places run by almost all Latinos. Same with the Falls Church target, which is almost all Latinos vs the other three in Alexandria and in D.C. which have some of the laziest white and black people I've ever seen.

And yes, there is a trait that is inherit in other cultures, especially the Asian one..that encompasses hard work and long work days. Their culture has a 6 day work week. They are meticulous with details...down to the most mundane job, like putting thermal paste or connecting components. And they are fast and have more work ethic...even the young adults.

Secondly, there is another level of asian workers that didn't come from the very poor areas. These are the mid level engineers that America is not producing. Like the article says...Foxconn got 8700 mid level engineers within a matter of weeks...here it would have taken 9+ months. Who's to blame for that again?

First of all, it's absurd for people to quote how much other folks in other countries make per day without considering their lower expenses,

I've mentioned the same thing about cost of living and that their shelter and food and medical is already covered..leaving them the ability to take that other money and either buy things for themselves or save it.

Cost of living in China is vastly different then cost of living here. I'm not sure what the comparison is but if $17 a day is equal to $50 a day here in terms of cost of goods, then that's the equivalent of working at a fast food place.

Apple and competitive pricing are completely unrelated. They charge more on many things. People still buy them. Yes they add value to a lot of it, but there are a lot of trivial accessory items that just get the Apple markup.

You know...just like in the auto industry, you get what you pay for. Nicer things cost more. No one is forcing you to buy the better, nicer looking car with better features and accessories.

Many people are just fine with pay a little more, and it is a little more when you compare EXACT spec for spec, for a superior product, design, software, eco-system and user experience. Those aren't trivial things...most call them game-changers and how Apple got to this point.

Sorry you can't understand this simple concept.
 
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You people supporting these companies are the ones sticking your heads in the sand. I would pay a little more for a product made here and I don't care if it takes them a little more time to make it.
If those jobs were here they would be decent wage jobs, but I guess you don't think American workers deserve to make a living wage

What people say and what they do are two different things. Local craft shops are closing, and the parking lots of big box importers like Walmart are crowded with foreign badged SUVs. The customers have spoken.
 
Of course that website and report are PR spin. I wrote earlier - it's a catch 22. If you're going to promote and have transparency regarding policies - you're going to wind up in the hot seat when you fail to deliver.

Of course it's a catch 22. Had Apple not produced this PR spin they'd have ended up in the hot seat just the same. You and NYT would be here shouting how they "failed to deliver" any response to the "Story" whatsoever.
 
You are both insinuating that American workers are incapable of learning the same tasks that the Chinese did?

Talk to some teachers who work in low income neighborhoods. The kids of poor Asian immigrants are the ones getting blasted by their parents for failing to do all their homework. The non-immigrant kids, some, but not as many and not so much.

Now wait a few years and see what percentage from each group fully meet the college entrance requirement for getting into a university engineering degree program.

The U.S. has a serious educational problem for a huge fraction of its population.
 
Meanwhile, have you read about the working conditions of Amazon.com warehouses in the USA? It's brutal. Right here in your backyard where you purchase many of your stuff.

All companies are under pressure. I would think even factories in Korea, or even Japan can be brutal in our eyes (albeit probably much better than China).

And those who cry foul just now have been ignorant. This is nothing new to me (about working conditions in China). Many things I need are made in China. But I also buy clothing and shoes made in England, Scotland. Electronics made in Japan. I buy shoes made in factories in Poland (which lies in Europe, but do you think it's good working conditions too?). I buy things consciously. But many people cry foul now and weep about having bought an iPad, and never looked in their closet of clothing and shoes (made in China, Vietnam, India). All your gadgets are made in China.

On forums, people ask me why I want stuff made in USA, Europe, or Japan. They say: Does it make the product better? Does it make it cheaper? It's the same, so why care? That's the general mentality.
 
There's a lot in this thread and I haven't read it all, but here are my thoughts on two opposing views expressed on the first few pages of the discussion, that either:

a) Apple has $100bn cash reserves so it can (and should) take significant action on working conditions in its supply chain; or that

b) Apple's competitors (who also rely on the similar working conditions) are 'breathing down Apples neck' competitively speaking, therefore Apple cannot do anything about conditions without loosing competitiveness.

I would argue that both of these arguments miss the brutal truth of the situation.

In response to the argument a): yes, a small fraction of $100bn could make a huge difference if Apple unilaterally decided to do something about conditions. (Incidentally, since other consumer electronics companies use the same manufacturing partners, a unilateral decision on Apple's part might likely improve the situation for workers making non-Apple products too.)

However, the reason that is unlikely to happen, is that those maintaining argument b) have missed the real point. In the sense of profitably delivering high quality products that consumers actually want to pay a premium on, the competition is a long way behind Apple. Yes, in the future Apple could still loose out if it runs out of ideas, or if some unforeseen technology change renders its business model obsolete. But, right now, Apple's high margins and that cash pile show that labour costs are not currently the driving factor in Apple's competitiveness. The competition just doesn't have products to match the iPad for example—and just imagine in the next few months when consumers get their hands on a retina display iPad3...

The real 'competitiveness' question is this:

Can you imagine what would happen to Apple's share price if it unilaterally announced it was using some of those cash reserves to take whatever steps are necessary to eliminate poor working conditions? For a start, many shareholders are—I'm sure—are secretly hoping that one day soon Apple will start using some of the that $100bn to issue share dividends. But, more centrally, in a world where the impression of financial confidence on the stock market trumps all other factors (in the short term at least), Apple's share price would likely be punished mercilessly for such 'weakness'. Do not forget that the the performance rewards for Apple senior executives—via stock options—are linked almost entirely to share price.

Our God (the market) is without pity or mercy. Amen.
 
a) Apple has $100bn cash reserves so it can (and should) take significant action on working conditions in its supply chain; or that

I remember reading an article which explains why Apple isn't as rich as the press is making it out to be. Yes, it does have a lot of reserves, but a lot of it is stuck in the form of foreign reserves, which Apple can't really move about freely, much less bring back into the US lest it wants to lose a sizable chunk of it immediately to taxes. Only a small portion is actually held as US currency.

So if you were wondering why Apple didn't pay dividends before, I guess this is the reason.

Not really related to this discussion, but something I thought would be interesting to point out. :)
 
Of course it's a catch 22. Had Apple not produced this PR spin they'd have ended up in the hot seat just the same. You and NYT would be here shouting how they "failed to deliver" any response to the "Story" whatsoever.

If there are no parameters - how can one fail to deliver. Yes - if this article came out and Apple didn't have several years of auditing and a splashy website - we would be here discussing whether or not Apple KNEW about this, was doing anything about it, etc. But in no way would argue that they failed to deliver because that can only occur if there was an actual goal SET.

I'm sorry (not really) that you don't care for my views on Apple in this regard and are taking it (seemingly) personally. You shouldn't.
 
Meanwhile, have you read about the working conditions of Amazon.com warehouses in the USA? It's brutal. Right here in your backyard where you purchase many of your stuff.

All companies are under pressure. I would think even factories in Korea, or even Japan can be brutal in our eyes (albeit probably much better than China).

And those who cry foul just now have been ignorant. This is nothing new to me (about working conditions in China). Many things I need are made in China. But I also buy clothing and shoes made in England, Scotland. Electronics made in Japan. I buy shoes made in factories in Poland (which lies in Europe, but do you think it's good working conditions too?). I buy things consciously. But many people cry foul now and weep about having bought an iPad, and never looked in their closet of clothing and shoes (made in China, Vietnam, India). All your gadgets are made in China.

On forums, people ask me why I want stuff made in USA, Europe, or Japan. They say: Does it make the product better? Does it make it cheaper? It's the same, so why care? That's the general mentality.

You should see the FEDEX and UPS unloading facilities around each holiday. If you want to talk about hard work conditions...take a tour of one...especially during the summer.

Most would consider that slave labor in this country..others consider it hard work.
 
And one who says that Americans and Chinese people are both humans, giving neither an elevated intrinsic worth makes that person a globalist fool?

Do you say the same thing about Bill Gates' charitable activities in Africa and other poor nations-that he should focus that aid on America and help American citizens before helping other countries' citizens?

Completely different things and you know it. American companies should be primarily focused on getting jobs for Americans. If they produce it in China and sell it in China that's fine by me. You think the Chinese Government is concerned about Americans getting jobs? Of course not and they shouldn't be. Everything they do involves forcing companies to operate there while we twiddle our thumbs and cry 'Free' Trade. It's ludicrous.

Ah...so you're fine with screwing another countries workers. That's hypocritical itself.

Secondly, does reading comprehension not apply? The jobs ARE NOT coming back to America due to the skill level of the American worker. They are not skilled enough, educated enough, or motivated enough no does America have the ability to scale up and down as fast as it's Asian counterparts.



.

Screwing another countries workers? Those jobs belong here in the first place.
That's a load of crap. They pull the chinese workers out of rural areas and place them in jobs. How educated do you think UAW workers are and they do manufacturing jobs. It takes very little training to get workers prepared.
 
The U.S. has a serious educational problem for a huge fraction of its population.

Amen and I will not dispute that fact. My school district has a 'no fail' policy; you can't fail even if you try. THAT is a disgrace and a disservice to the kids (and our country).

But the major part of the problem are the parents (and even their parents) who don't try to engender in their kids some sort of work ethic; kids are inherently lazy, who wants to run home and do homework when you can play COD MW3 for 3 or 6 hours? It's the parents' job to make sure they do it (their homework) and to lead by example (i.e. - take pride in whatever it is that you do for a living and do a good job).

@Ryth My argument isn't that there aren't lazy, entitled Americans, there are hundreds of thousands (of all races), but that there ARE hard working, unemployed Americans who would be very happy to have a factory job (or any job that brings home a steady income) and would do it as well as a Chinese worker.
 
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