Former Apple Executives Address Working Conditions in Suppliers' Factories

[globalist]

Well yes. Exactly. But now it's bit them in the hindquarters.

It's "bit them" only in the eyes of sensationalist media and the likes of you who seem too naive to see the big picture in this whole mess.

I don't know why the "foxconn story" is in quotes as if there's no story. I also don't see why you use the word "hysteria." Real problems, real deaths. That's hardly hysteria.

Yes, I believe there's no story here, that's why I used the quotes. As has been pointed out by rational people many times before, Foxcon is fine, considering the big picture that is China/3rd world labor. This sort of real problems and deaths occur all over the world.

You know why Apple is being singled out. If you don't - then how can you possibly contribute to this discussion legitimately. Truth is - you know why - you just don't like it. Again - two different things.

I know why Apple is being singled out in this - because the name in the headline sells. And no I don't like it.

And this isn't about fair wages. This is about working conditions. I could make a million dollars - but if I'm being beaten and working in a dungeon, etc - those are two completely different matters. And no - I am not saying anyone is getting beaten, etc.

Working in a dungeon? Gimme a break.

So it's not the wages, it's not any beatings, the workers are not working in a dungeon, what is it then? Is it the stupid suicides? What can Apple do against that realistically, other than issue a BS programme like the one they have?

 

[samcraig]

It's "bit them" only in the eyes of sensationalist media and the likes of you who seem too naive to see the big picture in this whole mess.

Yes, I believe there's no story here, that's why I used the quotes. As has been pointed out by rational people many times before, Foxcon is fine, considering the big picture that is China/3rd world labor. This sort of real problems and deaths occur all over the world.

I know why Apple is being singled out in this - because the name in the headline sells. And no I don't like it.

Working in a dungeon? Gimme a break.

So it's not the wages, it's not any beatings, the workers are not working in a dungeon, what is it then? Is it the stupid suicides? What can Apple do against that realistically, other than issue a BS programme like the one they have?

I never said they were working in a dungeon. Way to take my comment out of context.

The NYT is sensationalist media? OK. You'd rather believe the PR that Apple spins out? Ok. And you want to call me naive? Ok.

I see just fine. And like you - I don't like it. Not one bit.

 

[globalist]

I never said they were working in a dungeon. Way to take my comment out of context.

The NYT is sensationalist media? OK. You'd rather believe the PR that Apple spins out? Ok. And you want to call me naive? Ok.

I see just fine. And like you - I don't like it. Not one bit.

I see the Apple PR as what it is - just PR. In fact I don't think Apple could or even should do anything more to deal with this non-story.

 

[RedRaven571]

However, news like this sheds light on corporate responsibility being more of a marketing term than a way of doing business. As a company currently sitting with $97.6 BILLION dollars in CASH ON HAND, they should dramatically improve the working conditions and lives of people who make their products, not have an attitude of "well everyone else does it."

If you are really that bad off, then quit wasting your money on consumer electronics that you can't afford.

IMHO, I don't think they should spend their money on improving the working conditions of the people who make their products; they contract out various tasks to low cost bidders who provide substandard wages/conditions for their workers. BUT, there's a reason Apple is sitting on $97.6 billion, the fact that we, the consumers, are paying a premium for their products which are manufactured right alongside the less expensive PC counterparts. Realistically, other than the aesthetics (and the proprietary OS), nothing separates Apple components from those of HP/Dell/Lenovo.

At the prices that Apple garners for their products, they should be manufactured here, in the US, providing jobs for US workers (which, hopefully, would be under better conditions than in China). Additionally, as a CA based company which touts that their products are environmentally friendly, I think US based factories would be somewhat more environmentally friendly than the cesspools that are factories in China.

 

[firewood]

I think it would be great if Apple took the lead and bravely built a new, über-efficient manufacturing complex in the US.

Been there. Done that. Both Apple and Next have already tried building and running multiple super-hi-tech automated factories in California. (Read about them in Job's Bio). They weren't competitive.

Why would anyone keep repeating a failed experiment?

Not only that, but since then, the number of native U.S. manufacturing engineers graduated per year has been going down. So any new experimental factory in the U.S. might be even more likely to fail.

For extra credit, now compare that with the numbers of engineers graduating in China and Brazil.

 

[samcraig]

I see the Apple PR as what it is - just PR. In fact I don't think Apple could or even should do anything more to deal with this non-story.

Ok. But I still disagree that it's a non-story. That minimizes the working conditions over in China. And I sincerely believe that many Americans (specificially) are unaware of the working conditions there. Perhaps unfair to Apple that they are show so negatively - but that doesn't make the story a non story. People have died. People have been injured. People are suffering. To say it's a non story minimizes the value of their lives. Am I being dramatic - perhaps. I just don't like the phrase non-story as if there's nothing to report.

You can say Apple has no reason to respond. Or something similar. The story, however can't and shouldn't really be "ignored" overall. Even if it's just an example/case study of one scenario.

 

[Abazigal]

At the prices that Apple garners for their products, they should be manufactured here, in the US, providing jobs for US workers (which, hopefully, would be under better conditions than in China). Additionally, as a CA based company which touts that their products are environmentally friendly, I think US based factories would be somewhat more environmentally friendly than the cesspools that are factories in China.

Why, just because Apple is an American company? I don't see the logic...

 

[RedRaven571]

because Apple is an American company?

Yes, and because I'm an American citizen interested in keeping jobs in my little part of the world.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Apple, with it's tremendous profits could still keep prices the same and pay out more. Would they accumulate wealth as fast? No. But at the same time - they would be actually living their rhetoric about fair treatment, working conditions, etc.



You missed the point of the article too it seems. The point being is Apple isn't threatening to pull out. They have set standards and are NOT enforcing them. They aren't cracking down on their suppliers based on their standards.

Whether the article is accurate or not can be argued. But that point can't. Bottom line is - Apple has the power (more than most) to make changes and they are (seemingly) not.

Just imagine for a moment that you own Foxconn, and are filthy rich with all the money you make in your business.
- How would you react if one of you many customers comes to you to tell you that the way you run your business is wrong and demands that you have to do it their way when you know that it will severely affect your profits?

It's easy to criticize others. The Chinese are not going to change their way of doing business. They may make seem like they are, but behind the courtains everything remains the same. The only ones with the authority to demand anything are the governmental authorities... In China!

 

[Bluestrike2]

At the prices that Apple garners for their products, they should be manufactured here, in the US, providing jobs for US workers (which, hopefully, would be under better conditions than in China). Additionally, as a CA based company which touts that their products are environmentally friendly, I think US based factories would be somewhat more environmentally friendly than the cesspools that are factories in China.

It's called comparative advantage. Sure, we could produce everything here in the US. But I hate to break it to do you: doing that, rather than helping the American economy, would simply serve to further hamper it.

Some of you need to pick up an economics textbook and start reading.

 

[beejam]

Not to digress from the discussions here, but the guy in the bottom right corner of the foxconn image looks like he has mickey mouse ears because of the people behind him!!

 

[Bluestrike2]

As for the ridiculous idea of companies pulling out, empirically speaking there's a wealth of evidence and experience that shows the *only* people hurt by such moves are the workers themselves. So go ahead: keep pushing.

Maybe when the workers and their children turn to prostitution you can fly on over and patronize them. In all seriousness, however, the only way to improve working conditions is to improve the country's economy in general. And in order to do that, it's necessary to leverage whatever advantages they can: which are, more or less, an abundance of cheap, unskilled labor.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

Ok. Open your wallet.

Don't want to? Fine. Then go buy a Dell. Oops. Ok, then HP. Oops. Same situation.

Not so easy now, is it?

I have no idea what you just wrote. It made little sense. But I will confess it is easy to open my wallet. I do it all the time. It's a tri-fold so it might be more complex than some. But I handle it OK.

You're all over the place. It's China's fault. It's our government's fault. It's the fault of all governments, Dell, or HP.

And here, it's everyone BUT Apple:

THis isn't an Apple problem - and at the heart of it it isn't even a China problem.

It's a US/North American workers problem. Our attitudes, our expectations, our Xbox-internet-iPhone-Starbucks lifestyles. We love to live lavishly and demand maximum benefits from employers, and wave our big Union cards when employers claim they can no longer afford us.

Powerful unions and the need to keep up with the Joneses have driven manufacturing out of North America. We are as much to blame as the foreign governments we are so quick to judge.

Tonight, I will engage in self-flagellation and beg forgiveness from major corporations. I will pray for relief from the hard times they have fallen upon in this economy. I'll hold my iPod touch in one hand and the whip in the other. I will bow before my computer.

But don't worry, I see, at last, the plight of my social betters! The heroic "Job Creators" are being asked to carry the weight of the rest of us. I look back and see only one set of footsteps. It was then that they carried me.

But after all that praying, I still have fear. But what causes it?

And go where? To the *other* Foxconn-like mega-manufacturer in Asia? Do you propose a mass exodus from China when they are the largest single holders of U.S. government debt?

And finally, we have good old xenophobia. Great work.

 

[BaldiMac]

Ok. But I still disagree that it's a non-story. That minimizes the working conditions over in China. And I sincerely believe that many Americans (specificially) are unaware of the working conditions there. Perhaps unfair to Apple that they are show so negatively - but that doesn't make the story a non story. People have died. People have been injured. People are suffering. To say it's a non story minimizes the value of their lives. Am I being dramatic - perhaps. I just don't like the phrase non-story as if there's nothing to report.

You can say Apple has no reason to respond. Or something similar. The story, however can't and shouldn't really be "ignored" overall. Even if it's just an example/case study of one scenario.

I don't mean to reply to this post in particular, but I have a question about the 74% number that you keep quoting. Do you have any context for that number? You seem to think its a very damning number. Maybe it is, but without any context, how did you come to that conclusion? How do Apple suppliers compare to other suppliers in the same region. Has the number been improving? How do other American companies rate their suppliers using the same metric? How would an American manufacturing company rate using the same metric?

 

[XX55XX]

Silent picket outside the Apple Store on Boylston Street in Boston tomorrow, anyone?

Seriously, we can fap our mouths and moralize all we want, but it is ultimately up to us, as consumers, to force the change that Apple and others are unwilling to carry through with.

Think about it. The iPhone 5 will be released in a few months, and this article will be completely forgotten.

 

[wonderspark]

Been there. Done that. Both Apple and Next have already tried building and running multiple super-hi-tech automated factories in California. (Read about them in Job's Bio). They weren't competitive.

Why would anyone keep repeating a failed experiment?

Not only that, but since then, the number of native U.S. manufacturing engineers graduated per year has been going down. So any new experimental factory in the U.S. might be even more likely to fail.

For extra credit, now compare that with the numbers of engineers graduating in China and Brazil.

Failure is part of the path to success. Suppose the Apollo 13 astronauts said, "Oh, well. We didn't make home from the moon... and dude, we tried a couple times. Let's give up."

I figured more people would be behind a company they love doing something better.

 

[vrDrew]

They could spend a billion or so building better dormitories for Foxconn employees. That money is better spent than the 100 million in attorney's fees fighting Android.

China currently has $3.2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves. I think a better question is why they don't use some of their own money to build better housing for their citizens.

Charity, as they say, begins at home.

 

[RedRaven571]

And in order to do that, it's necessary to leverage whatever advantages they can: which are, more or less, an abundance of cheap, unskilled labor.

Eliminating the prostitution rhetoric. In case you hadn't heard, China is a communist country; I don't think they are sharing the wealth with the laborers. And if unskilled laborers are manufacturing the tech products, oh, boy!

I'm more concerned with the 9+% unemployment rate in the US and the fact that US companies are shipping both factory and intellectual jobs out of the country as fast as they can; who will be left to buy Apple's $2500 laptops and $600 phones when the American population is on welfare?

 

[XX55XX]

Eliminating the prostitution rhetoric. In case you hadn't heard, China is a communist country; I don't think they are sharing the wealth with the laborers. And if unskilled laborers are manufacturing the tech products, oh, boy!

I'm more concerned with the 9+% unemployment rate in the US and the fact that US companies are shipping both factory and intellectual jobs out of the country as fast as they can; who will be left to buy Apple's $2500 laptops and $600 phones when the American population is on welfare?

I see a lot of people with iPhone 4Ss paying for their groceries with food stamps. I work as a cashier at a grocery store - I know this.

The poor will have room for shiny new toys from Apple.

 

[OrangeSVTguy]

"Designed by Apple in California"

"Assembled in USA"

One can only dream.

 

[gnasher729]

You missed the point of the article too it seems. The point being is Apple isn't threatening to pull out. They have set standards and are NOT enforcing them. They aren't cracking down on their suppliers based on their standards.

Apple _has_ pulled out from several suppliers. They are doing audits. If the audit shows problems, they expect them to be fixed. And if they don't get fixed, Apple pulls out. So what are you on about?

Did you read the article. The WHOLE article? I'm guessing not. Because other companies pay more to factories in china AND stipulate that X goes to working conditions.

Which companies? This article makes a lot of claims without any substance. Starting with "former Apple executives" but not saying who.

“It is gross negligence, after an explosion occurs, not to realize that every factory should be inspected,” said Nicholas Ashford, the occupational safety expert, who is now at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “If it were terribly difficult to deal with aluminum dust, I would understand. But do you know how easy dust is to control? It’s called ventilation. We solved this problem over a century ago.”

I'm not sure who "we" is, but check these: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...5/bc-burns-lake-mill-dust-levels.html?cmp=rss or http://www.dustexplosion.info/

The last one reports of a dust explosion killing 14 in Savannah, USA, in 2008. I guess they don't have ventilation in the USA. Just living hundred years in the past apparently. Or maybe it is just that sometimes **** happens.

 

[coppercat]

Those who walk away from Omelas

All of this reminds me of Ursula Le Guin's story "Those who walk away from Omelas." Basically, the premise is the happiness of everyone in Omelas depends on the misery of some random child that everyone does their best not to think about.

I'd been ducking the occasional bits about FoxConn and Apple that I'd heard about before, but the NY Times story finally forced the issue to my attention.

I was going to buy the new IPad 3 when it comes out. But now, dunno. I could buy someone else's tablet in the mean time and hope that Tim Cook eventually cleans up Apple's act. But as far as I can tell, it's going to be incredibly difficult to find a tablet manufacturer that doesn't use parts from FoxConn or its ilk. I may just not buy one at all. It's not like I really need one

I did send an email to Apple expressing my views. Actually, I ended up filling out a "product feedback" form for the IPad since I couldn't find a proper "comments" email address. The category I chose was "product enhancement"

 

[samcraig]

Just imagine for a moment that you own Foxconn, and are filthy rich with all the money you make in your business.
- How would you react if one of you many customers comes to you to tell you that the way you run your business is wrong and demands that you have to do it their way when you know that it will severely affect your profits?

It's easy to criticize others. The Chinese are not going to change their way of doing business. They may make seem like they are, but behind the courtains everything remains the same. The only ones with the authority to demand anything are the governmental authorities... In China!

Actually you're wrong. Other companies with less influence than Apple dictate terms in which they will do business and if Foxconn wants greater profits, then they have to adhere to certain requirements.

Business is two (sometimes more) sides. Both parties benefit.

and P.S. Apple already DOES dictate terms. They just aren't enforcing them as much as they could.

 

[XX55XX]

Apple _has_ pulled out from several suppliers. They are doing audits. If the audit shows problems, they expect them to be fixed. And if they don't get fixed, Apple pulls out. So what are you on about?

Yes, but there is an inherent tension within Apple to live up to certain standards while providing consumers with the best product. If the iPad 3 is going to be released next week and one of the suppliers flagged by an audit supplies a critical component, do you really think Apple will blow the whistle and halt production over labor safety? Doubt it.

 

[MacSince1990]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

So Apple is portrayed as the bad guy for hiring foreign sweatshop Foxconn workers. Okay. So... If Apple moved their production back to the US, and put those people out of their (admittedly ******) jobs, would that improve the status of the workers? Are crap wages and harsh conditions worse than no job at all?

Five bucks says that, were that to happen, Apple would catch flak for "further impoverishing foreign workers". Not saying I like the Foxconn situation, but it's hard to get an "Attaboy" from the press no matter what you do.

The point here was that conditions for the workers could be instantly improved. Not that we're complaining about outsourcing.