Former iOS Chief Scott Forstall Shares Intriguing Story of His Interview With Steve Jobs at NeXT

[chucker23n1]

He NEEDS to come back and lead iOS design and functionality. I live for the day when iOS 6 look is restored.

I thought iOS 6 was fairly tacky-looking.

iOS 1 was pretty cool, but over the years, they added way too many shadows and gradients and textures and other effects.

In any case, I doubt his main contribution was the look of iOS. I do wonder if the era of Tevanian, Serlet and Forstall saw overall better quality. Hard to measure. https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...es.2234021/page-4?post=28435105#post-28435105
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And that is why interviews suck, sometimes they already know who to hire and you wasted your time.

Imagine having to talk to 17 people at the company in one day just to get a no.

-----

It is interesting to see that it could go all different for Apple, if Scott just turned down that offer. They would hire a different person, maybe iOS 6 failure would never had happened. Or iOS 7 would not have Johnny Ive's ideias.

Hard to say. This was long before iOS or even Mac OS X was a thing.

 

[hawkeye_a]

Scott should have been the CTO at Apple IMHO. Alas, it is what it is.

For those of you who enjoy first-hand stories involving Steve Jobs and other early Apple employees, check out Folklore.org(maintained by Andy Hertzfeld, one of the programmers of the original Macintosh).

Or if you prefer a hardcover copy:

 

[TimB21]

Sorry seemed to be the hardest word. (Sorry Elton.) ;-)

 

[MacFather]

Deleted.

 

[Scottsdale]

Why did he leave Apple? If I remember correctly, I think he was given the boot after jobs died. Anyone remember why?

Tim Cook was worried as Jobs meant for Forstall to take over once Cook got Apple through a few years of stability. Remember, as Jobs stated near time of passing how much Cook is NOT a product person. Hence, three-plus years of design for $1100 iPhone 11 Pro Max. Why would Cook be worried, Cook got $140m in stock last year alone from Apple!

It’s sad that the people Jobs left to run the “real” show of product design and the company are all gone!!! Sad days.

 

[UltimaKilo]

Video was removed.

 

[Falhófnir]

I'm probably in a minority, but I liked Forstall's work on iOS more than Ive's. Sure--some of the skeuomorphic stuff could be a bit cheesy, but at least you knew when something was a damn button.

Early iOS looked and worked great at the time, it had a really unique to Apple quality, and it was fun to use, and it really helped show off the new touch interface in its early days, all the clever physics and what have you. I do also think iOS 7 was the right move at that time though, by then everyone knew how it worked, and they hadn't done enough to move it forward and evolve so it got stale to the point a big change was needed (and indeed I would argue the same is now also true of the '7' design language, even though 7-13 has evolved a bit more than 1-6, it could do with a top to bottom refresh).

 

[Feyl]

Definitely talented, for sure (though I did not like his Skeuomorphic design that dominated prior iOS 7)
But from what I have read about him, far too arrogant and in love with himself. Keep him away from Apple.

Yeah. And Jony Ive isn't like that?

 

[Beeplance]

its stories like the ones he relates in this article that brings it all back why i don't like this man.
at all.
heir apparent.
and a failure.
and still trying to live off steve job's memory.
no talent.
and still self-serving.

Yeah, as if Tim Cook has never mentioned Steve at all every single year since 2012.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Yeah. And Jony Ive isn't like that?

I am pretty sure that to be at that level people need - as someone said about ALL Presidents he worked with (11 out of 45) - "a well formed ego, to put it mildly".

 

[sw1tcher]

I also wonder what Apple would be like if he was still there. There’s probably a 0% chance of him returning so I guess we’ll never knowww.

Steve Jobs died in 2011 (R.I.P.). So yeah, I'd say there's 0% chance of him returning.

Oh, you meant Forstall.

 

[DeepIn2U]

That was a very funny story

he’s mentioned this before at the first interview he’s given since being ousted by Apple/Cook. Never gets old though.

would be nice to have his expertise and skills back at Apple. He also helped push for Steve n executives to purchase the company that created Siri. Man that presentation still gives me chills.

 

[vkd]

Arguably, Apple itself has turned into something of a dead fish since the departure of Forstall.

 

[Skolvikings]

Reminds me of this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-forstall-2012-12

 

[ksec]

He was booted because he and Jony couldn't work together. And Tim had to choose one over the other.

Remember when Steve left, he said he gave the ultimate power to Jony, more so than Tim Cook. Tim Cook was CEO only as title. But product decisions and everything else was Jony. That was fine for the first year or so. Until things started to crack.

It was obvious Scott liked and share the same ideal with Steve about skeuomorphism, while Jony went on to completely get rid of it. Now before anyone lash out skeuomorphism sucks. Skeuomorphism does not mean everything has to look real world. i.e Notepad look alike and Leathers etc. skeuomorphism is not how it looks, but how it works. There is no reason why you can have a modern take on skeuomorphism.

In the end, it was Jony won and Scott got he Boot. Without Steve being the "Editor", it was how we arrive at iOS 7 design, and the HID team ( Human Interface Design ) then literally spend the next three years fixing all the mistakes until the head of HID quit due to fall out with Jony. The mistake of having an industrial designer in charge of everything design including software interface. And it was possibly one of Tim's mistake ( I still think it is ) that he merge iOS / macOS / and other OS team together along with everything software and hardware design under one roof.

Jony then spend the next few years making those design in Apple Store with Angela, along with Apple Park. And you hear story about Jony wanted open office for everyone. That would have worked for designers, but not for programmers. Luckily after some internal fight they got back their own cubical or what not. In hindsight now these are some of the reason why we felt Apple's pace of innovation, despite having 10-100x times the money and resources have been slowing down compared to Steve's era.

Then there is Macbook Pro 2016. I think Touch Bar and Butterfly Keyboard design needs no introduction .

And we know, Jony hasn't really been with Apple since 2017, and finally he left. I would guess there are lots of internal struggle and burnout. Along with Tim Cook insistence of diversity and hiring quota. Oh well.

I still wished Scott would come back to Apple.

 

[DeepIn2U]

its stories like the ones he relates in this article that brings it all back why i don't like this man.
at all.
heir apparent.
and a failure.
and still trying to live off steve job's memory.
no talent.
and still self-serving.

a failure?!!! LMAO!

iOS ... beating out the creator of iPod for a phone and tablet OS!

Demanding an enduring developers put the damn effort for quality apps and icon quality to define the fit & finish vs Android garbage app quality which the end user was being heavily persuaded to due to lower device prices back during 3G/3GS/4/4S/5.

showing off Siri, giving credit to an unknown team member whom discovered the company and team that created Siri. Giving credit where it’s due, his presentation could not have been done better.

Time Machine! Nothing like it in the industry, even third party solutions were very rare, and never came close to the UI. Yes this was his teams contribution which he actually worked on since inception.

his work and presentation relied on his programming skills, not introduced with a ridiculous knickname or body feature that has nothing to do with the content being introduced.

The fact he’s doing very well in broadway with no previous experience shows he’s got a LOT more talent (versatile) than other previous Apple employees who’ve done well in other areas of technology.

“Hair” apparently indeed.

at least HE didn’t defect from Apple to go elsewhere and fail crawling back during a time of great revolution. And you know whom I’m talking about.

The only other engineer that I know of whom was out then back in was due to the Newton being cancelled by Jobs, is Michael Tchao (VP of iPad Product Marketing) Cook brought back this engineer which helped the first iPad Pro see light of day. Mansfield retired and was brought back. I don’t see other quitters.

Steve and Forstall were friends, very close - someone else showed the video of him explaining how close. He’s NOT living off Jobs, he’s grateful and faithful!! He doesn’t use that memory for marketing his career further as it’s the only 2nd time he’s stated anything related to Apple since his departure. You don’t like him and that’s fine but your reasons are from a blinded view.

lastly just about everyone is self servicing:ambitions to goals, from dating to getting married, to presenting on stage, etc. Those very few amongst us that are not, give them the limelight consistently and you’ll begin to see they tooo end up being self serving.

 

[MrGuder]

If predictions are true, the next iPhone will have squared edges much like how the iPhone 5 looked. If true, Apple does go back and replicate how things were before....they might as well bring Scott back too.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Reminds me of this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-forstall-2012-12

interesting and many thanks for sharing that!! Honestly.

We want to be honest and straightforward. We admit when we’re wrong and have the courage to change.

And there can’t be politics. I despise politics. There is no room for it in a company. My life is going to be way too short to deal with that. No bureaucracy.

Tim’s being a hypocrite here as he played politics! He’s NOT been honest and has NOT admitted mistakes in any way!
- 2013 Mac Pro barely spec bump sold for 6yrs with a straight face. In an aside interview (written), and while talking about engineering development for its replacement did anyone at Apple say anything of wrong choices (not wrong doing). Cook said nothing!
- 2014 Mac Mini ... lingered for 5yrs before any upgrade/spec bumps or anything. It continued to be sold at retail price and Apple should be ashamed!! No admitting wrong there!!
- macOS Mavericks shipped with no password for root!! How on earth did it’s leader miss that?! That’s like your most important aspect of your job as head of Apple or head of MacOS!! No apologies made for that glaring mistake!!
- battery and iOS speed throttling done on purpose! We got fluff excuses no apologies there! Where was a honesty there?! They’ve finally paid for that and it was mediocre to be honest.
- many reports of users with Mac hardware issues being pushed to buy a new Mac after telling users parts are too expensive for repair. This leading to Right to Repair legislation in several states. The cost of Logic boards is well over priced! I assure you no honesty in that practice!

if Tim felt collaboration was an issue, maybe a forced vacation could’ve been offered to those showing issues amongst the team, maybe a team putting for a week (bowling, soccer, BBall, swimming or surfing, something). Leaders lead by example and it’s their job to know how their top team members tick!

 

[Expos of 1969]

I can’t imagine anything more intimidating than sitting in a room with Steve Jobs being bombarded with questions, But yet being recruited by a tech genius Where Jobs Was adamant Forstall to be part of his team. This behind-the-scenes stuff is great.

Intimidating certainly. But exciting and making you feel alive and seeing what great possibilities lie ahead.
Being in this same situation with T. Cook 🙄

 

[Kabeyun]

Fish?! Lmao! A fish on the way in is more insulting that a wristwatch on the way out. “Join Microsoft. Not sure? Have a salmon!” As I was reading this, I thought at first that Jobs had pranked Forstall by sending him a dead fish with a Microsoft return address. That would’ve been priceless, and very Jobs.

Why did he leave Apple? If I remember correctly, I think he was given the boot after jobs died. Anyone remember why?

If I recall correctly it was because of the Apple Maps launch debacle

That and at least as importantly Forstall’s design philosophy was diverging from Ive’s, who wouldn’t stand heavy-handed skeuomorphism (eg the address book “stitches gave him itches”). Jobs & Forstall we’re close but Jobs and certainly Cook aligned more with Ive. Then, a year after the Apple Maps fail, when Jobs was no longer there to protect Forstall, the hammer fell. It was part of a big reshuffle anyway, including bringing Bob Mansfield out of intended retirement.

Tim Cook was worried as Jobs meant for Forstall to take over once Cook got Apple through a few years of stability. Remember, as Jobs stated near time of passing how much Cook is NOT a product person. Hence, three-plus years of design for $1100 iPhone 11 Pro Max. Why would Cook be worried, Cook got $140m in stock last year alone from Apple!

It’s sad that the people Jobs left to run the “real” show of product design and the company are all gone!!! Sad days.

No offense, but this reads more like a semi-coherent conspiracy theory than an evidence-based reason for Forstall’s departure.

 

[swingerofbirch]

Imagine if Apple were being led by him right now, an actual software engineer who knew iOS in and out like the back of his hand. The shareholders might be less happy, but I'd be thrilled with the good old Apple known for its software quality.

 

[CarlJ]

I'm probably in a minority, but I liked Forstall's work on iOS more than Ive's. Sure--some of the skeuomorphic stuff could be a bit cheesy, but at least you knew when something was a damn button.

Forstall’s work went too far in one direction - eh, it was something of its time, but it held onto the overly skeuomorphic too long - and Ive’s work went way too far in the other direction - I’m halfway convinced his ultimate goal was to have the screen be a featureless white void (“this is the best white void we’ve ever made”). I think controls should be quite evident (but not, for example, by making them look like literal light switches and knobs that you “turn”) and intuitive, and I believe in using color and shape effectively to impart information - I can glance across the room at my weather station (a longtime personal project) and intuitively sense what the whether is like, even without reading any of the numbers. And yes, buttons should be designed so they’re obviously things you can interact with (this is not necessarily the same as making them look like traditional physical buttons).

 

[MakeAppleAwesomeAgain]

I'm probably in a minority, but I liked Forstall's work on iOS more than Ive's. Sure--some of the skeuomorphic stuff could be a bit cheesy, but at least you knew when something was a damn button.

This is my main frustration with iOS. It used to be so simple that even my grandparents could use it, they were kind of used to computers so basic elements like buttons looked familiair. I get that iOS has become more complex and the amount of features nowadays is huge compared to the iOS 6.x days. Sure it looks clean but it misses the simpleness Steve aimed for.

 

[mcfrazieriv]

Why did he leave Apple? If I remember correctly, I think he was given the boot after jobs died. Anyone remember why?

Heir apparent turned down for safest bet. Jobs thought he would win against cancer, part of his narcissistic thought pattern. He had convinced even the execs he'd bounce back, "as he had done many times before." Death came as surprise. Cook was in power when Jobs was still chairman of board - controlling his puppets from afar.

Once we was dead, they all had no master. The strings attached to their legs and arms got tangled. Some hated one another, envious or ego. They booted the heir apparent because they didn't understand what made him special to jobs.

Now you have a bean counter looking to count some moar.
An egomaniac who gets a green light for every Apple Music and tv deal.
A marketing department without their "Why".
A designer that lost his muse.

No puppet master and a misunderstanding of the purpose statement: "changing the status quo". Billions spent on green power and a few mislaunches of new products by announcing them before they are baked.

 

[citysnaps]

Tim Cook was worried as Jobs meant for Forstall to take over once Cook got Apple through a few years of stability. Remember, as Jobs stated near time of passing how much Cook is NOT a product person. Hence, three-plus years of design for $1100 iPhone 11 Pro Max. Why would Cook be worried, Cook got $140m in stock last year alone from Apple!

It’s sad that the people Jobs left to run the “real” show of product design and the company are all gone!!! Sad days.

That's a nice little piece of fiction!