sure, Microsoft, sure. Totally believe you.
implying that he wouldn't be able to buy fish like that if he moved to the Bay Area.
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Former iOS Chief Scott Forstall Shares Intriguing Story of His Interview With Steve Jobs at NeXT
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Sometimes I forget just how many Forstall-era features all of us are still using on a day to day basis:
- Static grid of icons
- App & iTunes Stores
- Multitasking
- Folders
- Home and lockscreen wallpapers
- Notification Center
- Siri
- iCloud
- iMessage
- Un-intrusive, banner notifications
- Reminders
- HDR photos
- Camera access from lockscreen
- OTA software updates
- Apple Maps
- etc etc...
One day he shall come back to Apple, just like Steve did. Steve was a product over profits guy and we all know what Tim is going after. I think Scott is exactly like Steve.
It's like Scott is waiting for Apple to make it's move. It is strange that such a brilliant guy isn't hired by Google or Microsoft since he left Apple.
It's like Scott is waiting for Apple to make it's move. It is strange that such a brilliant guy isn't hired by Google or Microsoft since he left Apple.
iOS before Ive was fun and had humor. iOS after Ive was a sleek, soul-less product with no personality.
I still remember how fun it was to use the old iOS picker. It was a slot machine, but better.
That spirit of fun is sadly gone from Apple. Guess that's what happens when you get to be big and start hiring the so-called adults.
Apple's old compiler used to say "too many errors on one line, make fewer." Now MacOS and iOS error messages are like HAL: "I'm sorry, I can't do that right now."
I still remember how fun it was to use the old iOS picker. It was a slot machine, but better.
That spirit of fun is sadly gone from Apple. Guess that's what happens when you get to be big and start hiring the so-called adults.
Apple's old compiler used to say "too many errors on one line, make fewer." Now MacOS and iOS error messages are like HAL: "I'm sorry, I can't do that right now."
After Jobs' protection died. Forstall was handed the ticking time bomb that was Apple Maps (which was sourced from various places). And, when it failed he was asked to issue an apology to customers which he rightfully refused to do. He was dismissed after that. Ive chose to remove all of Forstall's influence on iOS design after Forstall's departure. To say a lot of spite played into Forstall's post Jobs treatment is an understatement.
It's not that skeuomorphism is bad; it's that iOS 4 and especially 6 went way overboard with it. The stupid linen texture on Notification Center was cute the first time and obnoxious every subsequent time. IMHO, of course.
I don't know if Forstall's firing had anything to do with that, though. (I don't even know if Forstall was particularly a fan of that design anyway. Or that he dislikes the iOS 7 style. Do we really have any source for that?)
I think part of that is right. I'm not sure how much of it is related to Forstall, though. Forstall headed "iPhone Software". Ive never did.
Merging hardware design and UI design was probably a poor choice, but Forstall never (directly) headed UI design anyway.
I think you're really reading a ton into rumors here. How much first-hand info do you have that 1) Jony recommended that programmers work in an open office, 2) managers were required to comply with this, 3) programmers felt a certain way about it? Lots of conjecture there.
We don't really know if Ive was even involved with the MBP 2016 design. At the time, he seemed more interested in Apple Park and perhaps Apple Watch.
I think you're attributing all kinds of positive things to Scott, and all kinds of negative things to Jony, with relatively little evidence for either.
20 years at a tech company is an eternity. Forstall had a good run. Maps was rough, but that’s one, albeit very public, misstep in a career at what is a super intense, demanding company.
I think his skeuomorphic designs were a reflection of the time. Of course it looks dated to us now, but at the time it was the state of the art.
I think his skeuomorphic designs were a reflection of the time. Of course it looks dated to us now, but at the time it was the state of the art.
Also the whole skeuomorphic design debacle. Jony Ive wasn’t having it.
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Some of it was just gorgeous too. The Calendar in Mac OS X and the “Find My Friends” app in iOS were things of beauty.
W.T.F. Microsoft.
Imagine being a vegetarian out of compassion reasons (like Steve Jobs, for that matter) and a company just sending you a dead fish to persuade you to come work for them. "Hi we send you a killed animal, maybe you want to be working for us". Of course Forstall isn't vegetarian but how would they know? What a total dick move.
Also, who would leave fresh fish on a doorstep in California, it would spoil within minutes :/ Edit: Oh yeah I suppose it would have been packed in dry ice. Still weird to leave it unattended though. But I suppose food safety wasn't really as much of a thing 30 years ago. I don't think this would fly today with HACCP and all.
Imagine being a vegetarian out of compassion reasons (like Steve Jobs, for that matter) and a company just sending you a dead fish to persuade you to come work for them. "Hi we send you a killed animal, maybe you want to be working for us". Of course Forstall isn't vegetarian but how would they know? What a total dick move.
Also, who would leave fresh fish on a doorstep in California, it would spoil within minutes :/ Edit: Oh yeah I suppose it would have been packed in dry ice. Still weird to leave it unattended though. But I suppose food safety wasn't really as much of a thing 30 years ago. I don't think this would fly today with HACCP and all.
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I dunno...Steve returned to Apple after 10 years, so never say never.
That was the official reason. For someone at his level to get booted, there obviously has to be a lot more going on.
From everything I have read, Ive & Forstall vehemently despised each other. Jobs was able to successfully reign in their egos, but once Jobs was gone, the feud boiled over. One of them had to go.
Also several indications that Forstall was difficult to work with, it wasn't only Ive that didn't get along with him.
I also suspect that Ive's ego grew over time after Forstall departed. Too much form over function, as in butterfly keyboard (thinner!).
Totally agree with you except that picker
It required too many moves to get to something, and it took a ton of space. And the slot machine analogy didn't make that much sense as you can't actually manipulate slot machine wheels directly.The circular time picker from Android Lollipop really improved on it.
Other than that I loved the skeuomorphism except where it was overdone (game center, notepad etc). I totally agree with your first line
From my understanding is he was kind of an ass to work with. plus the industry was starting to leave apple behind and he was sticking to old hat design philosophies and the needed to refresh.
thank god we got rid of that horrible skeuomorphism.
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dear god no. iOS 6 is a freaking disaster of usability. especially the look. Skeuomorphism is utter junk when you get into accessibility. Plus iOS 6 literally has no uniform design language so you have no interaction patterns to rely on.
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Apple Users 2013: "I hate Forstall! Skeuomorphism is dated!"
Also Apple Users 2020: "I loved Forstall! Skeuomorphism is amazing!"
Also Apple Users 2020: "I loved Forstall! Skeuomorphism is amazing!"
Not necessarily the same users obviously.
In fact I'm quite surprised people still feel so strongly about this debate today when "flat" design is generally taken for granted everywhere. Good to see so, in fact. As I'm also not in favour of it.
I know they’ve improved a lot since then, particularly in terms of making it clear what’s a button, and what’s active and what’s not, but the control centre really looked better in iOS7 than it does now.
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Maps was abysmal though. I mean inexcusably bad.
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Tim Cook worked with Steve Jobs for a long time, he trusted him with running Apple while he was still alive. Today he is perhaps the person knows Steve the most.
Nothing wrong with Skeuomorphism when it’s done right. It can inform and make things obvious.
You can make an argument that as of iOS 6 a design refresh was overdue, but going for the flat design made things on the whole less obvious and more confusing, mostly because it relies on a smorgasbord of gestures, swipes, and what-not to do things. Swipe left, swipe right, swipe up, swipe down, swipe with two fingers swipe with three fingers, pinch with two fingers, pinch with three fingers, and on and on and on. I’m waiting for the new swipe with your tongue gesture in iOS 14 because they have run out of what you can do with your hand. And it’s all in service of the so called flat design and none of it is obvious as to when where and what to do to accomplish something. I’ll bet there are a ton of features in iOS that never get used or rarely used because no one knows they exist. You try a gesture, and maybe it works, maybe something happened, and maybe it was something you expected - or not. To that end Skeuomorphism will beat flat all day long.
Back in the days when the original Mac was introduced, there was a tv commercial comparing it to the then recently introduced IBM PC. The two machines were set on a table side by side and the voiceover said to the viewer something along the lines of “to use an IBM PC, you’ll need to read this...” and about 10 thick manuals dropped from above landing next to the PC with a pronounced thud. The voiceover continued “in order to use a Macintosh, you’ll need to read this...” and a single tiny manual dropped next to the Mac minus the thud. The current owners of iOS should take that commercial to heart.
Because iOS is, or rather has become, the IBM of the 21st century. You need a manual to figure out a lot of it because it’s nowhere near obvious. And the Tips app isn’t really just tips, it’s required reading.
You can make an argument that as of iOS 6 a design refresh was overdue, but going for the flat design made things on the whole less obvious and more confusing, mostly because it relies on a smorgasbord of gestures, swipes, and what-not to do things. Swipe left, swipe right, swipe up, swipe down, swipe with two fingers swipe with three fingers, pinch with two fingers, pinch with three fingers, and on and on and on. I’m waiting for the new swipe with your tongue gesture in iOS 14 because they have run out of what you can do with your hand. And it’s all in service of the so called flat design and none of it is obvious as to when where and what to do to accomplish something. I’ll bet there are a ton of features in iOS that never get used or rarely used because no one knows they exist. You try a gesture, and maybe it works, maybe something happened, and maybe it was something you expected - or not. To that end Skeuomorphism will beat flat all day long.
Back in the days when the original Mac was introduced, there was a tv commercial comparing it to the then recently introduced IBM PC. The two machines were set on a table side by side and the voiceover said to the viewer something along the lines of “to use an IBM PC, you’ll need to read this...” and about 10 thick manuals dropped from above landing next to the PC with a pronounced thud. The voiceover continued “in order to use a Macintosh, you’ll need to read this...” and a single tiny manual dropped next to the Mac minus the thud. The current owners of iOS should take that commercial to heart.
Because iOS is, or rather has become, the IBM of the 21st century. You need a manual to figure out a lot of it because it’s nowhere near obvious. And the Tips app isn’t really just tips, it’s required reading.
For all his smarts, apparently Forstall rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way at ALL levels. Like Jobs, the ego and ****** manner was put out there for all to to witness, yet he didn't care. He was targeted for the boot once Jobs was gone, but made it easy for them with his stubbornly entrenched views of UI design, so basically became the architect of his own demise.
I wonder if he learned anything from the experience or if he remains (maybe justifiably) slightly bitter, even if the severance package would have been eye-wateringly obscene.
I wonder if he learned anything from the experience or if he remains (maybe justifiably) slightly bitter, even if the severance package would have been eye-wateringly obscene.
It’s likely because they don’t share your assessment.
Here is the answer for you from your own words.
Yeah but haters gonna hate Scott anyway, so... some gentleman here called him a no talent. But I’m with you
Things have only got worse for Apple in the core business since Scott left. Time for a leadership shakeup.