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Article Link: Former U.S. Labor Secretary Defends Apple on Antitrust Issues[/QUOTE]

Finally someone that said it right in a plain speech.

IMO, what Jobs is doing to Adobe is exactly what he did to IBM twenty years ago. The only different now is that Apple / Jobs is in more of a PR position to talk down to and condemn a group of executives more interested in keeping costs down to keep margins up instead of innovating to bring their company forward.

In the 80s, Big Blue was the epitome of extending outdated technology to conservative users that were only interested in continuing the status quo. Effectively, Adobe is doing the same thing with Flash trying to move a code base from PCs to mobile. Microsoft's Mobile platform offerings was a very expensive demonstration that you can't just port UI intensive code into a new user paradigm and be successful.

This inquiry is just that, an inquiry. IMO, when all is said and done, it will be shown that there is no anti-trust nor monopoly abuse that can be arranged since the market it is selling into has no profile with a court history where you can declare it a monopoly.

If anything, I see the free market will have other vendors sell mobile devices with Flash; just like some that sold failed mobile platforms based on desktop code. Users will run Flash on mobiles and find out it sucks. Flash enabled, web site hits will fall and webmasters will move to HTML5.

This dinosaur of Flash will go the way of Perl, LISP, Fortran and COBOL. (Funny, the spell checker here doesn't even recognize the word "Fortran" as a properly spelled word.) People will loose money moving Flash to mobiles and a few in Cupertino will scream "I told you so!"
 
But people often ignore BIGGEST reason for Apple’s move: because Flash harms Apple’s ability to update their OS, the developer tools (and thus, end-user features) and even the hardware that is tied to the above. This isn’t just a wild fear from Apple: many examples exist in Apple’s past where an outside company delayed or prevented innovations Apple wanted to make.

You have that right! I think is it very pathetic for those that adore the ease of use of Apple products while also screaming for openness letting them do anything they want on the device.

It doesn't go both ways. This attitude kinda reminds me of those that wreck their homes as an adult expecting their mother to come over and clean it up.
 
You have that right! I think is it very pathetic for those that adore the ease of use of Apple products while also screaming for openness letting them do anything they want on the device.

It doesn't go both ways. This attitude kinda reminds me of those that wreck their homes as an adult expecting their mother to come over and clean it up.

Sounds kind of like Apples argument against Microsoft in 1984
 
Just because you compile out of Apples software doesn't mean your app won't be a slug. You should be able to compile out of any program you want. Monotouch, Unity, Flash etc. If your app is a memory hog then Apple can reject it.
 
Completely missing the point.

First, it's not an issue of consumers being able to buy platforms elsewhere -- this behaviour is disliked because it's anti-developer (multiplying the workload to create a cross-platform application) and anti-competitive (removing some, or all, developers from being able to effectively work on more than a single platform -- Apple's platform), not because of anything directly to do with consumers or consumer choice (only indirectly through the anti-competitive edge).

It's also not necessary to maintain quality. That's a bald-faced lie on Apple's part (and someone formerly in such a position should know better than to take something like that at face value), as they already have stringent requirements on accepting applications (including quality requirements, which are all-too-often disregarded even with 'natively-coded' applications to have quality used as any sort of justification), and due to the ease of creating low-quality applications no matter what tools are used. Quality cannot be measured by choice of programming language.

So I suppose Microsoft not licensing DirectX is also anti competitive then? Forcing game developers who develop for both OS X and Windows to write their games in Direct3D and then with OpenGL. (And in this case Microsoft owns over 90% of PC gaming market, so it's an actual monopoly). Different platforms are different and developers have had this trouble forever, it's not something introduced with Apple's decision. It's not always possible to write once and deploy everywhere. Everyone knows this. Nobody has to write games for both OS X and Windows and if they want to do it, they have to do it with the different tools available in each platform. Same with iPhone.
 
Completely missing the point.

First, it's not an issue of consumers being able to buy platforms elsewhere -- this behaviour is disliked because it's anti-developer (multiplying the workload to create a cross-platform application) and anti-competitive (removing some, or all, developers from being able to effectively work on more than a single platform -- Apple's platform), not because of anything directly to do with consumers or consumer choice (only indirectly through the anti-competitive edge).

And none of this is illegal.

But people often ignore BIGGEST reason for Apple’s move: because Flash harms Apple’s ability to update their OS, the developer tools (and thus, end-user features) and even the hardware that is tied to the above. This isn’t just a wild fear from Apple: many examples exist in Apple’s past where an outside company delayed or prevented innovations Apple wanted to make.

Not just in their past... the current MacBook Pro 13" had to stay Core2Duo since Intel would not let Apple uncouple the i3/i5/i7 from their integrated GPU. Since the 13" doesn't also include a discrete GPU, Apple would have had to make the 13" an Intel-only GPU machine that couldn't take advantage of Apple's new enhancements.

So I suppose Microsoft not licensing DirectX is also anti competitive then? Forcing game developers who develop for both OS X and Windows to write their games in Direct3D and then with OpenGL. (And in this case Microsoft owns over 90% of PC gaming market, so it's an actual monopoly). Different platforms are different and developers have had this trouble forever, it's not something introduced with Apple's decision. It's not always possible to write once and deploy everywhere. Everyone knows this. Nobody has to write games for both OS X and Windows and if they want to do it, they have to do it with the different tools available in each platform. Same with iPhone.

Good catch!
 
My Analysis of the Apple/Adobe situation

TLDNR you say?

Hey, folks. Seems there's been a bit of a mixup/flamewar over the past little while about our good friends in Cali. To help clear things up, I've put together a handy reference you can use to educate yourselves and your friends. I'm far from an expert, so anywhere I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me. Or troll me and everybody here with flamebait - I mean this is the Internets, right? :D Although, as a bit of friendly advice, to avoid making yourself look silly, try to avoid quoting one Q&A set and bringing up invalid points that are covered by a separate Q&A elsewhere in the post. I'll try to cover the main points (Flash player, open vs. closed, 3rd-party layers, etc.)

Questions about the Apple/Adobe hullaballoo:

3rd-party Dev Tools

Q: Does Apple's SDK agreement force developers to choose whether to write for iPhone or other devices?

A: No, it doesn't. The same functionality can be included in apps for other devices.

Q: Does Apple's decision limit choice for consumers?

A: Given the answer to the previous question, it's really the developers that decide to only support one platform or another (whether via native iPhone app or Flash app) that limit what functionality is available on each type of device. If they decide to only cater to one audience, the other audience doesn't have the choice. And yet, the end users do then have the choice to switch to the platform that has the apps they want. Not all products are equal, and that's ok. Manufacturers and developers all make decisions that produce differing end-products. Wikipedia 'Invisible Hand' sometime.

Q: Does the updated SDK agreement mean you can't easily cross-compile for multiple platforms?

A: Yes. That was the stated point. But you can still develop separate apps for different platforms that have the same functionality, insofar as those devices have publicly available SDKs and support the same features hardware-wise. In a similar way, developers who wish to bring the same software to Windows, OS X, and Linux may need to maintain separate code bases, and even employ developers with skillsets targeting those differing platforms.

The Flash Player

Q: Is Apple's stance on not allowing the Flash player on iPhone OS devices a poor business decision for them?

A: Time and the market will tell. Right now it looks like enough people are ok without Flash enough to buy enough devices that Apple probably feels no market pressure to alter their stance.

Q: Isn't most video on the web delivered via Flash?

A: Kinda. A lot of video content is available via Flash. But not only via Flash. A lot of the video delivered by Flash is also available in other formats. The youTubes are a great example (like how the youTube app on iPhone doesn't use the Flash player or the flv format).

Q: What about Flash games?

A: Yep - games only available in the Flash format aren't accessible from an iPhone OS based device. In many cases, developers that see success with their games in Flash also port their offerings as a native iPhone app.

Q: If Uncle Steve let Flash on touch devices, would we be able to enjoy all those spiffy games?

A: Depends on the game. Any flash game that uses mouseover and click on the same element with different behaviors for each will not function properly. Adobe's Flash evangelist himself admits that some features (based on the mouseover/hover events) wouldn't work right. He notes that the click event may even fire before the hover event. Brilliant. To make the problem more clear, think of a game where the only user inputs come from mousing over objects or clicking them - both of which would be interpreted as very different actions and produce very different results. Fail. (In fact, this is the same problem we see with the :hover CSS pseudo-class. It's not just Flash that has issues on touch devices. In fact, any UI that relies on input from a device that has 2 buttons, a wheel that can scroll and click, and a cursor that can hover, click, and change appearance to indicate the function that will happen when the hovered UI element is clicked... will not port well to touch-based devices. Also, a mouse can't do multi-touch, so it goes both ways.)

Open vs. Closed

Q: Is the H.264 format for video Reeeeeeally open?

A: Uh, kinda. But not free. If you care about the long term, it's really bad. Ok for Apple and Microsoft, but bad for Firefox and other non-profit open-source developers. Here we see Apple being a culprit and bad guy. Boo. Open but restricted = bad. Got it, kids?

Q: Here's a tricky one - is Flash closed/proprietary?

A: It's both. As of June 2009 through the Open Screen Project, the Flash specification (with the exception of info on Sorensen Spark) was made freely and openly available by Adobe. That covers the .swf file format and what it takes to make a player that will handle the SWF format. However, this only means that the specification is accessible to the public. It's still proprietary in the sense that while devs can use it and code to it, they can't change it - Adobe still holds the sole ability to decide every detail of what'll be in the next version. The Adobe Flash Professional authoring tool/environment is closed/proprietary, and is sold as part of the Creative Suite.

Q: Is the iPhone OS platform closed/proprietary?

A: It's both. Apple clearly states that you should use C, C++, Objective-C, or Javascript (as run by the iPhone OS's native WebKit implementation). Those are all non-proprietary languages, and (I believe) GCC, Clang, and LLVM are all open-source. Xcode and the associated developer tools can be downloaded free of charge (and yes, to submit to the app store it's like 9,900 pennies a year). In other words, Apple expressly commands you to write your iPhone/iPad/iPod touch apps using open languages and open-source based tools. They do require you to have your app go through approval to appear on the App Store. It's not a free-for-all. The App Store itself is closed/proprietary in the sense that you can't install native apps otherwise without jailbreaking, which Apple tries to prevent, and without jailbreaking there's only one source for apps. But development of apps is not proprietary (since the developer tools are freely downloadable) or closed (since the APIs for development are richly documented and available to the public). The app approval process is Exclusive and Verbose. Development is open/non-proprietary. The system (by virtue of the approval process) is closed/proprietary. Whether this is anti-competitive or simply a business decision seems to be hotly debated, but we'll cover that as a separate question.

Legality and Business Competition

Q: Is competition in the marketplace good?

A: Yes. It gives consumers choice, and drives companies to innovate. Often in markets where there's not much competition we repeatedly see companies stagnate, cease innovating, and become unresponsive to customer needs. In the end it not only benefits the consumer, but companies, shareholders, and the economy in general.

Q: Should a company be punished for producing a great product and being so successful that they gain a large market share or rake in tons of dough because customers like their products?

A: Um. No?

Q: Should a company be punished for engaging in anti-competitive practices?

A: Uh - yep.

Q: Do people have differing opinions on whether Apple's stance on flash is just a business decision geared towards making the iPhone OS platform stable/high-quality/etc. or a nefarious anti-competitive tactic designed not just to compete with Adobe but to use Apple's market position in an illegal way to put Adobe down?

A: It'd appear so.

Q: Does Apple's stance limit choice for consumers?

A: Only on Apple devices. Adobe's promised Flash on 'every screen' (that they're allowed on;). Given the number of smartphone and other mobile device offerings out there, I'd say there's almost an over-abundance of alternative choices. There's one (1) iPhone product line. (Ok, so 3 total product lines if you include the iPhone-without-the-phone-part and the great-big-iPhone-without-a-phone-part devices.)

Q: So what's the answer to all this mess, Mr. Q&A? Huh? What's your take on it?

A: ...

Q: Sissy! C'mon!

A: That's not a question. But I give. Mostly I wanted to clear up some points for us all. I don't claim to understand the antitrust laws well enough or the details of how those bear on 3rd-party runtimes, developer agreements, market share, choice, etc. It'll definitely be interesting to see the gov'ment's analysis of the situation. I do feel strongly that the antitrust laws were put in place at a time when they were sorely needed. I also feel strongly that they haven't always been applied correctly, nor updated to account for what *should* be done in such multi-faceted, complex, and technology-rich situations like we see here. Here are a few points I find relevant:
  • There's definite precedent for electronic devices where the maker exhibits strict control over the development of software that's allowed to run on said devices. One example is game consoles. Microsoft lost on the IE integration antitrust case in part because PCs are sold as a general computing device, and a personal computer OS should provide an even playing field for developers (like OS X). But the iPhone OS was never intended to be a general purpose computing device OS. And in that sense, the iPad really is a big iPod touch. Apple never intended these devices to be generic/general devices with iPhone OS as simply a way to organise files and run whatever-you-may-please. Understanding the difference is key to making a rational judgement in this case.
  • More specifically, there's a huge number of mobile phones that have browsers which do not support plugins. My Motorolla Rival A455 is an example. No one cries foul. (Well, I do, but my gripe is general to the UI in general - I could care less about Flash as long as my provider maintains an unreasonable pricing structure for data plans;))
  • I personally don't think it's right that a device manufacturer be required to support/allow any given 3rd-party plug-in, compatibility layer, language, or software. Or put it another way - if I create a runtime, and some other people create content that use it and put it up on the web, that shouldn't be grounds to legally require a device manufacturer to support it. Especially if it's a proprietary format (see above on Flash being a proprietary if openly published format).
  • HTML is what the www is based on. It's an evolving standard that people keep improving collaboratively, compared to Flash - which only one company has a say in. Adobe recently appeared to be trying to hinder it. If you want to talk about ethical business practices, let's clear that one up first, eh? And speaking of which, you can (without needing to pay 99 clams or seek Apple's blessing) develop for Safari mobile. Using open web standards. And achieve most of what you could functionally with the SDK.
  • I could go on, but I think you see that the issue is not just clear cut either way. You probably also have a good idea of my personal opinion. I'm certainly welcome to alternative views, especially (bordering on only) when they're well-stated and well-supported with reason. In fact, the more of those I'm exposed to, the more able I am to critically assess my own views.

To give credit where it's due, many of these points have been made by others elsewhere, but they're also my own views which I wanted to throw out there to the wind.

Best
 
So I suppose Microsoft not licensing DirectX is also anti competitive then? Forcing game developers who develop for both OS X and Windows to write their games in Direct3D and then with OpenGL. (And in this case Microsoft owns over 90% of PC gaming market, so it's an actual monopoly). Different platforms are different and developers have had this trouble forever, it's not something introduced with Apple's decision. It's not always possible to write once and deploy everywhere. Everyone knows this. Nobody has to write games for both OS X and Windows and if they want to do it, they have to do it with the different tools available in each platform. Same with iPhone.

Wrong. You can develop games for Windows in OpenGL too. There is no need to use DirectX. Actually, OpenGL is more up-to-date on Windows than on the Mac (shouldn't be a surprise, really).

Many developers however choose to use DirectX because it is better documented, more consistent (because only MS is developing it, instead of an open source community), easier, and more fully featured. (Although OpenGL can be extended).
 
...

Q: Is the iPhone OS platform closed/proprietary?

A: It's both. Apple clearly states that you should use C, C++, Objective-C, or Javascript (as run by the iPhone OS's native WebKit implementation). Those are all non-proprietary languages, and (I believe) GCC, Clang, and LLVM are all open-source. Xcode and the associated developer tools can be downloaded free of charge (and yes, to submit to the app store it's like 9,900 pennies a year). In other words, Apple expressly commands you to write your iPhone/iPad/iPod touch apps using open languages and open-source based tools. They do require you to have your app go through approval to appear on the App Store. It's not a free-for-all. The App Store itself is closed/proprietary in the sense that you can't install native apps otherwise without jailbreaking, which Apple tries to prevent, and without jailbreaking there's only one source for apps. But development of apps is not proprietary (since the developer tools are freely downloadable) or closed (since the APIs for development are richly documented and available to the public). The app approval process is Exclusive and Verbose. Development is open/non-proprietary. The system (by virtue of the approval process) is closed/proprietary. Whether this is anti-competitive or simply a business decision seems to be hotly debated, but we'll cover that as a separate question.

...

One thing I think could be clarified is that from what I've read you can't use C++ or C alone to develop for the platform. You must code in Objective-C to access their APIs. You can include C or C++ code in addition to Objective-C, but not instead of it.

It's that last part that I personally find annoying.
 
He's got his own ax to grind, but honestly if Adobe complained I think it's appropriate for the feds to at least look into it. If there's a formal investigation, I'll be pretty disappointed in our government.
 
Dear Mr Jobs:

I don't need another father. I have enough judgement to choose by myself. If I buy a Flash App that sucks the battery out of my Ipod Touch, that will be the first and last one, but please, stop trying to PROTECT me from the cold and chaotic world outside your safe and closed Eden.
 
Q: Is the H.264 format for video Reeeeeeally open?

A: Uh, kinda. But not free. If you care about the long term, it's really bad. Ok for Apple and Microsoft, but bad for Firefox and other non-profit open-source developers. Here we see Apple being a culprit and bad guy. Boo. Open but restricted = bad. Got it, kids?

h.264 is not open. It's controlled by a consortium, which is a good thing. The Web is an open platform and its technologies should be controlled by a governing body.

The concept that open and free is automatically best is just dogma and not necessarily best for consumers, companies, and their shareholders. The entire foundation of our economy is based on the controlling your intellectual property.

Q: Do people have differing opinions on whether Apple's stance on flash is just a business decision geared towards making the iPhone OS platform stable/high-quality/etc. or a nefarious anti-competitive tactic designed not just to compete with Adobe but to use Apple's market position in an illegal way to put Adobe down?

A: It'd appear so.

If Adobe thinks this, that's pretty narcissistic. It's not about Adobe, it's about Apple not being beholden to others for its success.
 
Wrong. You can develop games for Windows in OpenGL too. There is no need to use DirectX. Actually, OpenGL is more up-to-date on Windows than on the Mac (shouldn't be a surprise, really).

Many developers however choose to use DirectX because it is better documented, more consistent (because only MS is developing it, instead of an open source community), easier, and more fully featured. (Although OpenGL can be extended).

The point is most games are written for Windows first, in Direct3D, and then if the developer wants an OS X release, they will have to do it all over again in Open GL. Yes developers choose Direct3D because it's easier, more fully featured, and gives better performance. But it's closed and if it was licensed for OS X, then developers would have much easier time while developing games to ship on both OS X and Windows. So Direct3D not being licensed is certainly a handicap if you look at it from the developers angle.

So exactly like developers choose to develop games with Direct3D, if they choose to develop apps for multiple platforms then they will do it according to the platforms standards.
 
Just out of curiosity but is it possible to make Flash files/animations/air apps without using Adobe Flash/Flash Builder/Flex? Or do I need to use Adobe's Tools for that? Hmm... It is OPEN right? :rolleyes:

Actually not true. A few years back, Adobe released a Flash SDK. And if you had patience and some good chops, you could create quite a variety of SWF files using PERL. I'm a designer and part-time programmer and work with a very close friend of mine who is an amazing programmer. He created several different SWF modules, SWF interfaces, SWF animations, etc. all using PERL. We did it this way so that complex tasks/actions could be created dynamically with different sizes, dimensions, etc. in the SWF format that our Flash SWF interface could understand and use. Pretty amazing stuff.
 
There's a lot of misunderstandings on this issue.

Back in the day, web browsers used to be actual boxed products in a store you paid for. This was Netscape's entire business. Most computer companies would bundle Netscape onto their computers. Someone like Dell would pay Netscape $5 a machine or whatever and bundle Netscape. Microsoft decided to compete this by bundling IE with the OS.

None of the above was illegal.

The problem started when Microsoft started to refuse to allow computer manufacturers to sell machines with Windows if they bundled Netscape. For example, if Dell still decided to make a deal to bundle Netscape with their machines even with IE being bundled, Microsoft would threaten to yank their Windows license. This was illegal. Microsoft was trying to use their position as an OS vendor to put Netscape out of business, not just compete with it.

(As a side complaint, Netscape could no longer make deals with computer makers to bundle Netscape as the only pre-installed browser because IE could not be removed, but this was not the main complaint.)

Agree, with consumers that just use browser to receive E-mails and navigating Macrumors, IE and Netscape has no difference (Unfortunately, that's the deal with the majority people), and a pre-installed browser for a PC can directly knock Netscape out of the ring.

Same things here with iPhone OS and Android, if they offer the same software, than comparision occur:apple:
 
Dear Mr Jobs:

I don't need another father. I have enough judgement to choose by myself. If I buy a Flash App that sucks the battery out of my Ipod Touch, that will be the first and last one, but please, stop trying to PROTECT me from the cold and chaotic world outside your safe and closed Eden.

Dear poster,

Simple solution: pick a different product. Thus the lack of a monopoly.
 
-- this behaviour is disliked because it's anti-developer (multiplying the workload to create a cross-platform application)

EEEEEEHHHHH! Ooooo, incorrect, wrong answer!. What we were looking for is "Developers are not a specially protected group with rights and privileges above and beyond those of mere mortals! But if you tick them off they'll go develop for some other platform, and your platform may suffer. Depending on how talented they are". But here' a nice parting gift, and please play again at some future date!

...and anti-competitive (removing some, or all, developers from being able to effectively work on more than a single platform -- Apple's platform), not because of anything directly to do with consumers or consumer choice (only indirectly through the anti-competitive edge).

Doh, wrong again! Developers are free to take their talents, or lack there of, to other platforms and make Apples platform look outdated. I'm sorry, but we're going to have to take your parting gift back.
 
Comparisons with developing for DirectX vs. Open GL don't really illustrate the same situation. They are libraries not languages. If Microsoft made DirectX only work with a language that is only properly implemented on their platform and none other as well as explicitly disallowing anyone using contractual/legal agreements from addressing their technical limitation that would be more like this situation.
 
So I suppose Microsoft not licensing DirectX is also anti competitive then? Forcing game developers who develop for both OS X and Windows to write their games in Direct3D and then with OpenGL. (And in this case Microsoft owns over 90% of PC gaming market, so it's an actual monopoly). Different platforms are different and developers have had this trouble forever, it's not something introduced with Apple's decision. It's not always possible to write once and deploy everywhere. Everyone knows this. Nobody has to write games for both OS X and Windows and if they want to do it, they have to do it with the different tools available in each platform. Same with iPhone.

You can write a Windows game for OpenGL, your example isn't very good.
 
Dear poster,

Simple solution: pick a different product. Thus the lack of a monopoly.

The problem being, he already picked Apple's product and now Apple is restricting what other products he is allowed to buy. And restricting how developers can make those products. Don't imagine for a second that the big game companies don't use cross platform tools. Apple will allow these companies special preference of course because otherwise they may sell fewer iPod touches.
 
The problem being, he already picked Apple's product and now Apple is restricting what other products he is allowed to buy. And restricting how developers can make those products. Don't imagine for a second that the big game companies don't use cross platform tools. Apple will allow these companies special preference of course because otherwise they may sell fewer iPod touches.

My point is at it's a free market. If he doesn't like Apple's new rules, he can walk. I happen to love Oblective-C and the environment that Apple provides. If he does not, there are other choices for him that would be glad to have him.

If you program for Nintendo, you must follow their guidelines.

If you program for Xbox, you must follow their guidelines.

If you program for iPhone, you must follow their guidelines.
 
My point is at it's a free market. If he doesn't like Apple's new rules, he can walk. I happen to love Oblective-C and the environment that Apple provides. If he does not, there are other choices for him that would be glad to have him.

If you program for Nintendo, you must follow their guidelines.

If you program for Xbox, you must follow their guidelines.

If you program for iPhone, you must follow their guidelines.

To produce XBox and Nintendo games you require their development kit, but I have never heard of them restricting how you make your game before you use their kit.
 
You can write a Windows game for OpenGL, your example isn't very good.

Microsoft doesn't license the most common gaming API in order to keep the PC, aka Windows, the leader in gaming market. Yes developers can write games in OpenGL but it's more convenient to do it with Direct3D, and the games run faster as well. So there's absolutely no reason to do it in OpenGL unless the developer is planning to port the game to different platforms. But since Direct3D gives better performance on Windows, most developers are kind of forced to write their games in Direct3D to give the players the best experience.

So if Windows licensed Direct3D to other OS's, it'd be much much more easier for developers to write once and deploy everywhere. So Microsoft is not thinking of developers on their strategy either. They are doing it to keep Windows the dominant gaming OS. Now Apple is doing something which makes it less convenient for developers to write once deploy anywhere, exactly like Microsoft. But exactly like Microsoft, Apple does it to make iPhone OS the dominant mobile app OS.
 
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