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To produce XBox and Nintendo games you require their development kit, but I have never heard of them restricting how you make your game before you use their kit.

The point is that you have to use their kit is a restriction already. XBox uses DirectX so if you are an OpenGL developer you cannot write games for XBox unless you learn how to program in DirectX.
 
JP Morgan and Chase merged a long time ago, not during the last downturn. I don't think Chase was in trouble when they merged. If you know a source that says otherwise, please provide a link. They bought Washington Mutual and Bear Stearns during the last recession, maybe you are thinking of them.

Based on a Fortune magazine article I've read, JP Morgan CEO was smart enough to see that real estate market was crashing and managed to get out in time unlike many others. It was good management and he should be applauded for that. Still, there were many investors and publications publicly proclaiming that the prices were unsustainable during that time, so he was not the only smart dude in the field. In any case, I don't think he bailed out anybody, in most cases the government supplied vast guarantees against the losses of the banks going under.

Without putting too fine a point on it, JP Morgan (God don't you LOVE that name? It just SOUNDS like money - like Scrooge McDuck) anyway, JPM bought some of the Lehman Brothers businesses. Now Lehman, boy did they get it wrong, and not just because of bad trades. Mr. Fuld, former CEO lost his way, did not listen to his employees and let his butt boys (yes men) make some bad bad trades....and your tax dollars bailed them out...
 
The point that you have to use their kit is a restriction already. XBox uses DirectX so if you are an OpenGL developer you cannot write games for XBox unless you learn how to program in DirectX.

Most developers that I know of use cross-platform tools, custom written importers and exporters to make "targeting" a specific platform a smoother transition. We also use bricks, or "black/white/clear or whatever they're covered with at the time" boxes that cost heck-of-a-lot for each platform. I believe Valve has setup Source to target the compiler for PC or Mac.

I read somewhere that Adobe's flash creative suite allows their compiler to target multiple platforms in their native formats. From my understanding, this is pretty common in the gaming industry.

DISCLAIMER I'm not discussing the topic of this thread, as I believe I AM NOT qualified to cast judgment regarding monopolies or anti-trust violations, nor would I be qualified, if I had all of the evidence to understand all possible implications thereof.
 
His important message has little to do with Apple

While I totally share Robert Reich's point of view with respect to Apple's decision to keep the development tools closed (it isn't anti-competative, but a strategic decision that may help or hurt Apple in the long-run), I think his most important message was that there are two types of economic activites that businesses can persue:

You can create economic value, which is exactly what Apple does by designing fantastic products (take low cost materials and turn them into something worth more than the sum of the parts, plus create economic opportunity for others like App programmers).

Or you can consume economic value, which is the roll of banks and lawyers. These people don't produce anything of value, they actually extract wealth from others. Their existent, a necessary (?) evil, actually causes economic loss for almost everyone else, and diminished opportunity.

Robert Reich's point was the FTC and other agency types are wasting valuable time abusing a company that is creating value each and every day, while they totally ignore those that actually damage the economy.
 
Sounds kind of like Apples argument against Microsoft in 1984
No, actually it sounds nothing like it.

Just because you compile out of Apples software doesn't mean your app won't be a slug. You should be able to compile out of any program you want. Monotouch, Unity, Flash etc. If your app is a memory hog then Apple can reject it.
You should be able to do whatever you want because... you want to? Not exactly a compelling argument.

To produce XBox and Nintendo games you require their development kit, but I have never heard of them restricting how you make your game before you use their kit.
You haven't heard of this happening? Well, I guess that settles it then. XBox and Nintendo must not have any technical restrictions on the games they approve for their platforms. Because, if they did, surely you would have heard about it. I mean, you have developed games for those platforms, right?
 
Why can't we sue Adobe over the fact that you have to use their program to create Flash, anything?!?!?!

But there was another program that made flash back in the day. It was great. Easy to use, more like after effects than flash. What was that called? Oh, yeah, Adobe LiveMotion. Never took off. But I used it for years to make flash. Well, if ya can't beat 'em, buy em.
 
today, Robert Reich, who served as U.S. Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton, offers his thoughts [...] While Reich is not the first to make this argument, his public statement comes with the perspective of an academic and political insider who has spent considerable time in the upper reaches of government.
This ex-government idiot ought to stick to sophomoric viewpoints in the public policy arena. He doesn't know anything about the software industry.

For that matter, when was the last time Jobs invented a real product? The single source controlled App Store isn't a "real product". In the past decade or so, Jobs has become an expert at inventing business models ... sort of like Bill Gates' claim to fame.
 
You should be able to do whatever you want because... you want to? Not exactly a compelling argument.

How you get to the end product shouldn't matter. Its the end results. If I make a word doc in Open Office or Pages should it be shunned because its not saved in Microsoft Word? I still say Compile in what you want. if it sux Apple can reject it.
 
What's the big deal?

If you want to develop a PS3 game...you must use Sony tools.
If you want to develop a XBox game...you must use MS tools.
If you want to develop a Nintendo game...you must use Nintendo tools.
...
If you want to develop an iPhone/Pad game...you must use Apple tools.

What's the big deal again? What apple is doing is hardly new or illegal.
 
If you want to develop a PS3 game...you must use Sony tools.
If you want to develop a XBox game...you must use MS tools.
If you want to develop a Nintendo game...you must use Nintendo tools.
...
If you want to develop an iPhone/Pad game...you must use Apple tools.

What's the big deal again? What apple is doing is hardly new or illegal.

While you are totally correct, its bad business on Apples part in respect to Adobe. They gave Flash CS5 their blessing all trough development to gold, only to reject it a day before it went on sale. Thats like working with someone to build a web site and the day it goes live they decide not to pay you
 
While you are totally correct, its bad business on Apples part in respect to Adobe. They gave Flash CS5 their blessing all trough development to gold, only to reject it a day before it went on sale. Thats like working with someone to build a web site and the day it goes live they decide not to pay you

How did they gave Flash CS5 their blessing?
And is Flash CS5 only used to develop apps for iPhone? Doesn't it have any uses for desktop app development?
 
Ummm...JP Morgan Chase's CEO (Jamie Dimon) is one of the leaders in the financial industry. His company is one of the few who actually became MORE successful during this downturn, as they had nothing to do with it since they made sensible, reasonable investments. He actually swooped in and saved Chase bank, buying them out when they went under. He's one of the best examples of leadership in the financial industry (along with Wells Fargo), so don't trash him, trash the others he bailed out.

So how much of the "going under" was caused by stock manipulation, with massive amounts of stock sold short naked?
 
One thing I think could be clarified is that from what I've read you can't use C++ or C alone to develop for the platform. You must code in Objective-C to access their APIs. You can include C or C++ code in addition to Objective-C, but not instead of it.

It's that last part that I personally find annoying.

Objective-C has language features that are, depending on your point of view somewhere between amazing and deeply disturbing :rolleyes: and these language features are very strongly used for the user interface APIs in the iPhone OS. Trying to create a C/C++ only interface would be very difficult and in my view a pointless exercise. Also, Objective-C is an extension to C and Objective-C++ is an extension to C++, so switching to Objective-C or C++ is very little effort.
 
So I suppose Microsoft not licensing DirectX is also anti competitive then? Forcing game developers who develop for both OS X and Windows to write their games in Direct3D and then with OpenGL. (And in this case Microsoft owns over 90% of PC gaming market, so it's an actual monopoly).

Just like with the Apple/Flash compiler situation, it is not anti-competitive for game developers. You'll sell games if your games are better than the competitors' games. If Microsoft makes it hard to use OpenGL for both you and your competitors, it's just as easy or hard to compete as it was before. The only ones who could complain about anti-competitiveness would be the likes of Apple or Red Hat, and they don't complain.
 
Basically he's saying "It's their product, they have every right.."

Same situation with MS/IE. Where were you then??
 
Completely missing the point.

First, it's not an issue of consumers being able to buy platforms elsewhere -- this behaviour is disliked because it's anti-developer (multiplying the workload to create a cross-platform application) and anti-competitive (removing some, or all, developers from being able to effectively work on more than a single platform -- Apple's platform), not because of anything directly to do with consumers or consumer choice (only indirectly through the anti-competitive edge).

It's also not necessary to maintain quality. That's a bald-faced lie on Apple's part (and someone formerly in such a position should know better than to take something like that at face value), as they already have stringent requirements on accepting applications (including quality requirements, which are all-too-often disregarded even with 'natively-coded' applications to have quality used as any sort of justification), and due to the ease of creating low-quality applications no matter what tools are used. Quality cannot be measured by choice of programming language.

It may be anti-developer, but it's pro-consumer.

Flash content, as it stands, is not optimised for the bandwidth restrictions of mobile devices. It's not optimised for a touch-only environment - many a Flash developer exploits mouse states and keyboard interaction. Even though the vector graphics mean Flash *should* scale, developers do not generally create resolution-independent Flash files, they expect their designs to display at set dimensions.

If Apple just flicked the switch on Flash, users would be exposed to a ton of content that eats up their bandwidth, slows their phone to a crawl, and is utterly unusable in every respect.

So that rules out effort-free web content; and simply republishing that web content to iPhone using the CS5 functionality will only solve the bandwidth problem. The interface is still ill-suited to the device.

If a developer is creating something up front in the knowledge that it will be published to multiple devices, sure, they will potentially make smart decisions to avoid those issues, but they're still going to spend less time polishing their app specifically for iPhone users.

Unlike web content and Android, the iPhone ecosystem is a proven money spinner. The success stories roll in every day about folks who get into it as a hobby then end up making a ton of money. If a developer wants to get in on that gold rush, they should be expected - and required - to create a polished experience for the device. Using Flash Professional and exporting to multiple formats is not going to result in a polished experience. If you think the app store is full of crapware now, it would be far worse if Apple opened the floodgates.

I'm a developer, and sure, I would love for my job to be as easy as possible. I would love a magic button that allows me to create something once and hit a button to create a polished, targeted version of my work on Windows Phone, Android, iPhone OS, WebOS, the Internet and high tech toaster ovens. It ain't going to happen... unless I use the holy trinity of HTML, CSS and JS. Apple aren't restricting those at all, by the way.
 
The point is that you have to use their kit is a restriction already. XBox uses DirectX so if you are an OpenGL developer you cannot write games for XBox unless you learn how to program in DirectX.

The restriction is there because they use specialised hardware and the kits are there to ease the development, not restrict it. The iPhone has development tools as well, but this isn't the same as restrictiing the languages you can develop apps. The tools are there for things like emulation, testing etc. They are not the whole process of developing an app.

It may be anti-developer, but it's pro-consumer.

Flash content, as it stands, is not optimised for the bandwidth restrictions of mobile devices. It's not optimised for a touch-only environment - many a Flash developer exploits mouse states and keyboard interaction. Even though the vector graphics mean Flash *should* scale, developers do not generally create resolution-independent Flash files, they expect their designs to display at set dimensions.

If Apple just flicked the switch on Flash, users would be exposed to a ton of content that eats up their bandwidth, slows their phone to a crawl, and is utterly unusable in every respect.

So that rules out effort-free web content; and simply republishing that web content to iPhone using the CS5 functionality will only solve the bandwidth problem. The interface is still ill-suited to the device.

If a developer is creating something up front in the knowledge that it will be published to multiple devices, sure, they will potentially make smart decisions to avoid those issues, but they're still going to spend less time polishing their app specifically for iPhone users.

Unlike web content and Android, the iPhone ecosystem is a proven money spinner. The success stories roll in every day about folks who get into it as a hobby then end up making a ton of money. If a developer wants to get in on that gold rush, they should be expected - and required - to create a polished experience for the device. Using Flash Professional and exporting to multiple formats is not going to result in a polished experience. If you think the app store is full of crapware now, it would be far worse if Apple opened the floodgates.

I'm a developer, and sure, I would love for my job to be as easy as possible. I would love a magic button that allows me to create something once and hit a button to create a polished, targeted version of my work on Windows Phone, Android, iPhone OS, WebOS, the Internet and high tech toaster ovens. It ain't going to happen... unless I use the holy trinity of HTML, CSS and JS. Apple aren't restricting those at all, by the way.

Flash is not optimised for low bandwidth, but then again most of the web isn't, so why does Flash get special treatment? Mouseover is not restricted to Flash either. Webites that are expecting certain screen dimensions are again not unique to flash.

As a developer I am sure you know the pain in the arse that is assembler. Languages like C, Objective C etc arose from the need to make programming easier and less time consuming. Now that Adobe are creating tools which further simplify the process, Apple are saying that developers should stick to old languages. How ironic for a company that is supposedly a champion of new technologies.

The app store already has a process for filtering out the less polished apps. That process is consumer choice. If an app doesn't follow the iPhone guidelines quite so neatly as others then that should show in the downloads figures. Unless the consumer really doesn't give a crap, in which case why does Steve Jobs want them to give a crap? It's all about the end-user experience right? Apple can even weed out this crap in their approval process.
 
How ironic for a company that is supposedly a champion of new technologies.

Who says Apple is a "champion of new technologies?" There are many new technologies they haven't adopted (Blu ray, OLED, blinding keyboard status lights, e-ink, Atom, etc.). They are a champion of "better" technologies, and newer is not necessarily better.
 
The restriction is there because they use specialised hardware and the kits are there to ease the development, not restrict it. The iPhone has development tools as well, but this isn't the same as restrictiing the languages you can develop apps. The tools are there for things like emulation, testing etc. They are not the whole process of developing an app.
They are not there to restrict it maybe, but restricting it is a byproduct of the whole thing. Can you write an Xbox game without knowing anything about DirectX? No.
So you can know Flash CS but you'll have to learn DirectX if you want to develop a game for XBox.
 
Dear Mr Jobs:

I don't need another father. I have enough judgement to choose by myself. If I buy a Flash App that sucks the battery out of my Ipod Touch, that will be the first and last one, but please, stop trying to PROTECT me from the cold and chaotic world outside your safe and closed Eden.

Dear Yiako:

You don't need an iPod touch, you wanted one, and you bought it. If you don't like the restrictions of the device (which were present when you purchased it), you are free to discontinue use and buy a product from another company.
 
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