Forum works together to get what we want in iOS.

[newtestleper]

My sole wish is for endless problems on the phones belonging to the holier-than-thou people -- depressed because their dream job at Apple isn't going to happen -- who post here, and for smooth sailing for those who just want to play around with new software that is available to anyone.

I'm still hopeful.

 

[madsci954]

You make a valid point, but it seems to me that if there are aspects of iOS 7 that are widely disliked (e.g., too-thin fonts), it's in Apple's best interest to be alerted to it now, when its easy to fix, instead of being flooded with complaints in the Fall.

My opinion. Freely given, and worth every penny!

True, but Apple is concerned with getting iOS 7 and Mavericks bug free, polished, and ready with what they have planned now for the fall release. Once all that is done, then they'll listen to feedback by the general consumer and use that for changes in iOS 8. Font thickness will be easier to change, icons easy but a little harder. And app features, UI changes and operations, that will be hard on a small time table.

Apple has lots of pennies, but even with all that cash on hand, they can't buy more time. And that is the most important resource now.

 

[JohnnyW2001]

There is a massive difference between "development feedback" and "public feedback". And if YOU Knew anything about development, you'd understand that.

There's no such thing as the "massive difference between 'development feedback' and 'public feedback'", because those are two terms that you've just made up. The Beta period is the time for bugs in the OS to be ironed out -- that's what it's for. Apple with have their own testing department, but they also want bugs reported from external parties.

Oh, and FTR, your signature is wrong. There is a massive difference between an upgrade and clean install. Again, something a developer should know

There's no difference between a clean install of iOS and an upgrade. This doesn't require any developer knowledge, just the time to test it for yourself. The instability and slowness problems in Beta 2 were nothing to with the install type -- they were present on my 4S regardless of how it was installed. So I can say, with absolutely certainty, that it doesn't make any difference: The memory leaks and UI bugs were still present. This is further backed up by the fact that Beta 3 fixed those issues.

Those who claimed to be having a flawless experience on a "clean" install were most likely just seeing the benefits of not running many apps: You're not going to see memory leak problems if you don't put anything into memory!

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But this isn't a public beta it's a developer beta. So the primary purpose is for developers to update their apps and report bugs not for the average joe to submit UI design suggestions.

Who's talking about UI design suggestions? I was responding to Brian's ridiculous assertion that Apple isn't interested in hearing bug reports about their OS during the Beta period.

 

[Brian Y]

There's no such thing as the "massive difference between 'development feedback' and 'public feedback'", because those are two terms that you've just made up. The Beta period is the time for bugs in the OS to be ironed out -- that's what it's for. Apple with have their own testing department, but they also want bugs reported from external parties.



There's no difference between a clean install of iOS and an upgrade. This doesn't require any developer knowledge, just the time to test it for yourself. The instability and slowness problems in Beta 2 were nothing to with the install type -- they were present on my 4S regardless of how it was installed. So I can say, with absolutely certainty, that it doesn't make any difference: The memory leaks and UI bugs were still present. This is further backed up by the fact that Beta 3 fixed those issues.

Those who claimed to be having a flawless experience on a "clean" install were most likely just seeing the benefits of not running many apps: You're not going to see memory leak problems if you don't put anything into memory!

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Who's talking about UI design suggestions? I was responding to Brian's ridiculous assertion that Apple isn't interested in hearing bug reports about their OS during the Beta period.

How can you say there's no difference between the feedback developers give and the feedback the general public gives? Developers will normally give feedback about the API (all they care about) or things that actually don't work. The public will give feedback like "I don't like how that button looks".

And yes, there are differences between a clean install - if there are issues with corrupt configuration/preference files, or file permissions on redundant files (iOS is unix based, it happens), those errors will still be present on an upgrade. Guess what - on a clean install, they wont be. That is a difference. Upgrading doesn't touch/fix any problems present in non-OS folders on the root directory - including media libraries, applications, and preference files.

I have seen it happen many times where there is a problem with an iPhone - which "must be hardware, it's the same after I restored it". Then I ask "Did you restore from backup?". 99% of the time (made up statistic) the answer will be yes, and restoring and then NOT restoring from backup (i.e. not putting corrupt preferences back on the phone) will resolve the problem.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about either of those points? Oh, and as for my "ridiculous assumption" - if Apple wanted feedback from the public - they would ask for it. There are AppleSeed programs where they collect feedback from the public (see the iWork web beta). There's a reason it's called iOS 7 "for developers", and why the bug report tool requires a developer account.

 

[JohnnyW2001]

How can you say there's no difference between the feedback developers give and the feedback the general public gives? Developers will normally give feedback about the API (all they care about) or things that actually don't work. The public will give feedback like "I don't like how that button looks".

This is completely besides the point. There is no "public" beta period, the beta period is designed to find bugs and problems with the software before it goes public. Any issues you come across before then are worth reporting, and of interest, to Apple.

Your initial argument (which you seem to be trying to forget about) was that Apple isn't interested in hearing feedback on unfinished software, when that's exactly what pre-releasing unfinished software is for.

And yes, there are differences between a clean install - if there are issues with corrupt configuration/preference files, or file permissions on redundant files (iOS is unix based, it happens), those errors will still be present on an upgrade. Guess what - on a clean install, they wont be. That is a difference.

I have seen it happen many times where there is a problem with an iPhone - which "must be hardware, it's the same after I restored it". Then I ask "Did you restore from backup?". 99% of the time (made up statistic) the answer will be yes, and restoring and then NOT restoring from backup (i.e. not putting corrupt preferences back on the phone) will resolve the problem.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about either of those points?

Anecdotal nonsense. Not only did I test it for myself (and not just made up random statistics) but this is a Beta version of software that's designed to be upgraded. If it fails at that, it's a legitimate problem with the software, not the user.

I can't find anything in Apple's SDK documentation that suggests Beta software should not be upgraded. Perhaps you can quote the appropriate passage to me?

 

[Brian Y]

This is completely besides the point. There is no "public" beta period, the beta period is designed to find bugs and problems with the software before it goes public. Any issues you come across before then are worth reporting, and of interest, to Apple.

Your initial argument (which you seem to be trying to forget about) was that Apple isn't interested in hearing feedback on unfinished software, when that's exactly what pre-releasing unfinished software is for.


Anecdotal nonsense. Not only did I test it for myself (and not just made up random statistics) but this is a Beta version of software that's designed to be upgraded. If it fails at that, it's a legitimate problem with the software, not the user.

My argument is that Apple doesn't want public feedback. There is no official channel for a member of the public to submit feedback on iOS 7 to Apple. Hence the existence of this thread proves my point.


The only official channel to submit feedback about iOS 7 is through the developer portal. Which means Apple only wants feedback from developers.


Re upgrades:

So you tested every single possible upgrade scenario - and checked that every single corrupted file would be perfectly fixed when the upgrade has completed? Thought not. It's not always a problem with the software. Say, for example, iOS 7 upgrade modifies a certain plist file which, due to a previous force-reboot on the old version, is corrupted and can no longer be written to. Upgrades do not delete any preference files (to prevent loss of data - that's by design), so the default operation is to retain the previous version and mark it as a missed upgrade file.

If that plist happened to be the one controlling camera settings - and thus, after the upgrade to iOS 7, which introduced new camera settings which aren't available due to the above, the camera app crashes because of a null setting.

Is that a bug with the OS? No. It's a problem caused by the user (force-rebooting during a write operation) which has propagated through an upgrade.

I'm going to leave my argument there - there's no point arguing further since if you still choose to argue your point then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and ignoring everything I say.

 

[jebbe]

Good lord who cares, people on this forum will bicker about anything. The guy has a good idea but everyone has to be so technical about everything.

Cut the guy a break for crying out loud.

 

[JohnnyW2001]

My argument is that Apple doesn't want public feedback. There is no official channel for a member of the public to submit feedback on iOS 7 to Apple. Hence the existence of this thread proves my point.

The only official channel to submit feedback about iOS 7 is through the developer portal. Which means Apple only wants feedback from developers.

That's not your argument. Your argument is this:

*sigh*

You want to give feedback on unreleased software?

Re upgrades:

So you tested every single possible upgrade scenario - and checked that every single corrupted file would be perfectly fixed when the upgrade has completed? Thought not. It's not always a problem with the software. Say, for example, iOS 7 upgrade modifies a certain plist file which, due to a previous force-reboot on the old version, is corrupted and can no longer be written to. Upgrades do not delete any preference files (to prevent loss of data - that's by design), so the default operation is to retain the previous version and mark it as a missed upgrade file.

If that plist happened to be the one controlling camera settings - and thus, after the upgrade to iOS 7, which introduced new camera settings which aren't available due to the above, the camera app crashes because of a null setting.

Is that a bug with the OS? No. It's a problem caused by the user (force-rebooting during a write operation) which has propagated through an upgrade.

I've read through this a few times and I still can't see how it contradicts anything I've said in this discussion. As with the statement above, instead of admitting you were wrong, you're changing your argument as to appear less wrong. Fine.

You were right about one thing; my original sig was overly simple (it still is). There's small chance that a restore could cause an issue. This has nothing to do with Beta software, which still needs to function as an upgrade, but either way, I've reworded it now.

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Good lord who cares, people on this forum will bicker about anything. The guy has a good idea but everyone has to be so technical about everything.

Cut the guy a break for crying out loud.

I concur.

 

[Rogifan]

Who's talking about UI design suggestions? I was responding to Brian's ridiculous assertion that Apple isn't interested in hearing bug reports about their OS during the Beta period.

Sorry, I guess I was referring to the OP. I agree that Apple wants and needs bug reports/feedback. IMO developer beta feedback should be used only for that and not for UI design or feature suggestions. It should be specifically about bugs or aspects of the UI that could be problematic (like the slide to unlock on the lock screen).

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Good lord who cares, people on this forum will bicker about anything. The guy has a good idea but everyone has to be so technical about everything.

Cut the guy a break for crying out loud.

Sounds like design by committee. Why is that a good idea?

 

[Ottoman1]

If I am Apple I'm interested in all feedback. Developer and non.

I'm guessing that Macrumors is populated by a high percentage of early adopters. Apple wants to know what we as a group think.

You bet the competition will capitalize on themes found in negative feedback.

I do think there is evidence that feedback both positive and negative will shape the final version of IOS 7.

I just wish we, as a group, could be a bit more respectful of one another.