Fountain pen users, rejoice!

[dyn]

@Ulenspiegel: try to comprehend what someone is saying. The statement was that pens are designed to be a status symbol which does not hold any truth to it at all. Pens are designed to look good and most of all write. This indeed has never changed and probably won't either. Some people consider certain objects (pens, watches, cars, glasses, Macs, etc.) to be a status symbol which is entirely between their ears. This also has been the case for ages and has never changed and probably never will either.

There is a difference between what some of us humans see things and why and how something was designed and constructed. You and others here fail to see this difference and keep mixing them up.

Also I beg to differ when it comes to modern times as most people are very negative towards pens in general. They are used to keyboards and cheap/free pens with advertising. Most people consider anyone spending $50 or more on a pen to be insane. The reality is that we handwrite less and less, most of our communication is now via apps like WhatsApp and e-mail. Even meeting minutes are typed out on notebooks/tablets nowadays. I wish it were different because, as I've explained earlier, it comes with some rather big drawbacks. Thinking people value pens and consider them to be a status symbol is very naive. You even see this with the rich people and politicians. All current treaties, laws, agreements, etc. are being signed with ordinary ballpoint pens.

Let's not forget pens are just tools and not magic fairy dust.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

@dyn: The problem is not with the comprehension of someone's opinion, but with the validity of it.
If you look through history, pens always have been a status symbol for a simple reason, a rather small stratum of society was literate.
All products bear the potential of being a status symbol. Few become one. Is a Renault Twingo a status symbol? No, but a Bentley is.
Again, you are wrong. Treaties are traditionally signed with fountain pens as the pen used to sign historic legislation itself becomes a historical artifact. There are - of course - exceptions, like in case of President Obama. And still he uses a Roller Ball (Cross Townsend Collection), not a Ballpoint Pen. The reason is simple. Barack Obama is left handed.
Last but not least, let me cite Gordon Scott, vice-president for Parker: "The relationship we have with a fountain pen is changing from it being a working tool towards more of an accessory".

 

[Regbial]

They can be. It depends on the ink, paper, pen and what you are used to. There are people who find F anything smaller than that to be scratchy (just as some find an M or broader to write too wet and/or too smooth). Smooth paper like the Rhodia offerings helps a lot. If you are used to that and start writing with average paper you may find that to be something similar as writing on sanding paper. Some pens (or nibs I should say) are bit more toothy than others. That's another reason why you should try them out in a shop if you can.

Btw, in the western world the F-nib is considered a nib for every day writing, the broader ones are used for things like signatures and calligraphy. In countries like Japan it's the EF-nib. Also do note that not every F/EF/etc. nib is an F/EF/etc. nib, there are small variances (well, I've seen F-nibs writing like an M). There is also quite a difference in what is an F in Europe and Japan (Japanese F is like a European EF). More importantly, the size of the nib has to match your handwriting and intended use.

@OllyW: that is nice classic set!

Thank you for all of this.

 

[sk1wbw]

Kind of off topic but does anyone here go to the fountain pen subreddit over at reddit?

 

[dyn]

@dyn: The problem is not with the comprehension of someone's opinion, but with the validity of it.
If you look through history, pens always have been a status symbol for a simple reason, a rather small stratum of society was literate.

*sigh* you are still nowhere near to getting the point and continue to show a complete lack of comprehension. Pens have never been DESIGNED to be a status symbol. Period.

Designed != turned into.

Again, you are wrong. Treaties are traditionally signed with fountain pens as the pen used to sign historic legislation itself becomes a historical artifact.

As many newspapers, news sites, shows, etc. have already shown by video and pictures this is very outdated information. Worldwide treaties, contracts, agreements, legislation and so on are being signed with fancy ballpoint pens or rollerball pens. Hardly anyone uses fountain pens for that. In the USA it used to be a tradition to sign a piece of legislation/treaty/whatever with a certain amount of pens. Anyone who was of great importance for making the legislation/treaty/whatever reality got a pen that was used to sign the legislation/treaty/whatever. This however is not a worldwide tradition! There are many countries where they use 1 or 2 pens for signing the document. All parties are only given a signed version of the document but no pen. None of the people who had anything to do with that document are given such a pen. There is also one that is somewhere in between which has been used for certain occasions in the EU for example. They use several pens so everyone can sign at the same time and afterwards everybody who signed plus people of great importance are given a similar pen (engraved) as a gift/remembrance. Guess what, most of the time these are normal ballpoint pens and sometimes rollerball pens.

A good example is the following treaty signing ceremony:

The treaty was so important that many heads of state gave a speech (part 1 to 5 are all speeches), yet the treaty was signed with ordinary ballpoint pens. Both the Dutch and the French citizens rejected the treaty and Poland was going to do so too which would have caused this treaty to be rejected completely. It was so important that both the Dutch, French, Polish and other members governments ignored the votes of their citizens and pushed the treaty. For you Americans out there: this treaty is the EU version of your Constitution. So imagine that, the Constitution being signed with ordinary ballpoint pens...that's how much of a status symbol a fountain pen is today.

And this one isn't the exception to the rule, it is the exact opposite: it is the rule. Just about any head of state or minister in Europe doesn't use a fountain pen when signing (want to know more? ask the people from P.W. Akkerman in The Hague (they supply a lot of pens to politicians and the like; they also have a book telling their story which also shows you the history of pens throughout the century (they exist for more than 100 years)). Unfortunately it doesn't stop there, other countries incl. the USA also use ordinary pens instead of fountain pens for signing important documents. If you look at what pens are used it also shows. For the abdication of the Dutch queen they used fountain pens: an ordinary black/gold Parker Sonnet which they didn't even bother to engrave. Obama used an ordinary Cross pen even though it is somewhat of a classic. It is no different than signing it with a Parker Jotter (an even bigger classic than the Cross Townsend).

If pens were a real status symbol we'd have seen more people use the more fancy ones instead of the free supplied by work versions and cheap Cross Townsend and Parker Sonnets. But most of all, the fountain pen, ink and paper industry would have done much better than they are doing right now. Throughout the years many companies had to seize their operations. Finding pen stores has become very difficult, there are some countries where it is like searching for a needle in a haystack. As well as countries where handwriting is no longer a mandatory part of the curriculum.

 

[MacInTO]

My Waterman

 

[Scepticalscribe]

*sigh* you are still nowhere near to getting the point and continue to show a complete lack of comprehension. Pens have never been DESIGNED to be a status symbol. Period.

Designed != turned into.


As many newspapers, news sites, shows, etc. have already shown by video and pictures this is very outdated information. Worldwide treaties, contracts, agreements, legislation and so on are being signed with fancy ballpoint pens or rollerball pens. Hardly anyone uses fountain pens for that. In the USA it used to be a tradition to sign a piece of legislation/treaty/whatever with a certain amount of pens. Anyone who was of great importance for making the legislation/treaty/whatever reality got a pen that was used to sign the legislation/treaty/whatever. This however is not a worldwide tradition! There are many countries where they use 1 or 2 pens for signing the document. All parties are only given a signed version of the document but no pen. None of the people who had anything to do with that document are given such a pen. There is also one that is somewhere in between which has been used for certain occasions in the EU for example. They use several pens so everyone can sign at the same time and afterwards everybody who signed plus people of great importance are given a similar pen (engraved) as a gift/remembrance. Guess what, most of the time these are normal ballpoint pens and sometimes rollerball pens.

A good example is the following treaty signing ceremony:

The treaty was so important that many heads of state gave a speech (part 1 to 5 are all speeches), yet the treaty was signed with ordinary ballpoint pens. Both the Dutch and the French citizens rejected the treaty and Poland was going to do so too which would have caused this treaty to be rejected completely. It was so important that both the Dutch, French, Polish and other members governments ignored the votes of their citizens and pushed the treaty. For you Americans out there: this treaty is the EU version of your Constitution. So imagine that, the Constitution being signed with ordinary ballpoint pens...that's how much of a status symbol a fountain pen is today.

And this one isn't the exception to the rule, it is the exact opposite: it is the rule. Just about any head of state or minister in Europe doesn't use a fountain pen when signing (want to know more? ask the people from P.W. Akkerman in The Hague (they supply a lot of pens to politicians and the like; they also have a book telling their story which also shows you the history of pens throughout the century (they exist for more than 100 years)). Unfortunately it doesn't stop there, other countries incl. the USA also use ordinary pens instead of fountain pens for signing important documents. If you look at what pens are used it also shows. For the abdication of the Dutch queen they used fountain pens: an ordinary black/gold Parker Sonnet which they didn't even bother to engrave. Obama used an ordinary Cross pen even though it is somewhat of a classic. It is no different than signing it with a Parker Jotter (an even bigger classic than the Cross Townsend).

If pens were a real status symbol we'd have seen more people use the more fancy ones instead of the free supplied by work versions and cheap Cross Townsend and Parker Sonnets. But most of all, the fountain pen, ink and paper industry would have done much better than they are doing right now. Throughout the years many companies had to seize their operations. Finding pen stores has become very difficult, there are some countries where it is like searching for a needle in a haystack. As well as countries where handwriting is no longer a mandatory part of the curriculum.

Look, @dyn:

Can we not accept that some people (and I have met some Government Ministers in what could be described as poor, war torn countries who did this) use fountain pens as status symbols? As do some plutocrats or bloated business men of the sort who happily bully secretaries and who can barely write?

Likewise, can we not accept that they used to be used a lot in formal settings, - such as signing treaties - at a time when the world wrote with them - but are less likely to be used nowadays, - not just because of the commemorative gifts you mentioned, but because most people are no longer comfortable using them? Moreover, can we not admit that they are still sometimes used in formal settings and that some still use them all the time (among whom you can count your humble scribe?)
[doublepost=1455099877][/doublepost]

My Waterman

Meant to comment on this: Very nice pen, and long may you enjoy using it.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

@dyn:

Most interestingly it does not matter in what kind of thread you appear, you happen to provoke a quarrel, even in such peaceful places like "Fountain pen users, rejoice!". Think about it.

What concerns your ex cathedra statements:

1. Like Scepticalscribe mentioned, our information is based not solely on open source data, but personal experience. She and I happened/happen to be on such events, working in these circles.

2. Tell it to Montblanc that it has never been designed to be a status symbol. You pay not only for the quality but for the little logo on all of the products. Like you do in case of Apple.

3. It is widely known why treaties are signed with numerous pens.

4. Obama uses Roller Balls because he is left handed as I mentioned before.

5. "Just about any head of state or minister in Europe doesn't use a fountain pen when signing" (by dyn). That is again incorrect. The Treaty of Accession to the European Union was signed by the majority with a fountain pen, like the Treaty of Marrakesh, so on and so forth. See some of the examples below.

 

[OllyW]

Obama uses Roller Balls because he is left handed as I mentioned before.

Why would that stop him from using a fountain pen?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Why would that stop him from using a fountain pen?

Because - physically - when you are left handed, the actual act of writing is - or can be - difficult. This is because in writing from left to right (as we do, with our alphabetic systems) - the script flow goes from left to right - you are almost literally 'going against the flow'; your hand is leading a writing instrument in a direction that is not naturally physically easy or comfortable for many who write with that hand.

Look at photographs of left handed people writing - and - for that matter, try to read their illegible and indecipherable script. Pens do not sit easily in their hands, and the physical act of writing presents obstacles that most right handed individual don't face.

My brother is left handed, and he holds a pen almost upside down; in other words, to obtain a flow of script in the direction (left to right) that he desires, when grasping a pen (any pen, not just fountain pens) his hand resembles a claw, and holds the pen in what we would consider an upside down position, with the wrist facing upwards and the hand and fingers facing his chest. Physically, it looks as horrible to see in action as the dreadful script that he produces on the page.

Therefore, re fountain pens being used by people who are left handed, I would surmise that if your grip in any way differs from a standard grip, the ink flow of the pen - and thus ease with the act of of actual writing - might be compromised.

 

[OllyW]

I know left handed people who use fountain pens and special nibs are available that are catered to suit their alternative writing styles.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I know left handed people who use fountain pens and special nibs are available that are catered to suit their alternative writing styles.

Well, it may well depend on the individual left handed person; some left-handed people must inevitably find the physical act of writing writing easier than others. And, of course, it stands to reason that pens exist which cater to their needs, as do other tools (such as special scissors, and who can forget Paul McCartney's guitar?)

However, I will say that my brother always found the physical act of writing to have been uncomfortable, and I am pretty certain that his execrable writing cost him in exams, state, university and law exams. These days, with keyboards, it is a lot easier for guys like him.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

@dyn:

Most interestingly it does not matter in what kind of thread you appear, you happen to provoke a quarrel, even in such peaceful places like "Fountain pen users, rejoice!". Think about it.

What concerns your ex cathedra statements:

1. Like Scepticalscribe mentioned, our information is based not solely on open source data, but personal experience. She and I happened/happen to be on such events, working in these circles.

2. Tell it to Montblanc that it has never been designed to be a status symbol. You pay not only for the quality but for the little logo on all of the products. Like you do in case of Apple.

3. It is widely known why treaties are signed with numerous pens.

4. Obama uses Roller Balls because he is left handed as I mentioned before.

5. "Just about any head of state or minister in Europe doesn't use a fountain pen when signing" (by dyn). That is again incorrect. The Treaty of Accession to the European Union was signed by the majority with a fountain pen, like the Treaty of Marrakesh, so on and so forth. See some of the examples below.

View attachment 615616 View attachment 615617 View attachment 615618 View attachment 615619

A well argued and well illustrated - with pictures and with examples - post.

And, I find myself pretty much in complete agreement with it.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Why would that stop him from using a fountain pen?

I know left handed people who use fountain pens and special nibs are available that are catered to suit their alternative writing styles.

Left handed people in most cases don't like to use fountain pens as they write at a special angle (most nibs are not suitable for this, only specially crafted ones) and because of the ink that smear the (left) hand (and paper) moving from left to right.
Those left-handed who use fountain pens usually settle with fast drying inks or dry-writing pens (i.e. Pelikan Royal Blue, Waterman Florida Blue).

 

[saberahul]

My current one:

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My current one:

A very nice pen; may you long enjoy using it. How do you find it as a writer, or, to write with?

 

[Chundles]

I'm a lefty. Changing to a fountain pen made everything much easier. Not having to push down on the page meant I could bring my hand down a bit which cut out any cramping I used to get.

The ink just flows, the colours are amazing plus there's a nerdy community out there who like them just as much as I do. I don't have anything super fancy, my most expensive is a Lamy Safari, but what I do have I really enjoy using.
[doublepost=1455188224][/doublepost]

Well, it may well depend on the individual left handed person; some left-handed people must inevitably find the physical act of writing writing easier than others. And, of course, it stands to reason that pens exist which cater to their needs, as do other tools (such as special scissors, and who can forget Paul McCartney's guitar?)

However, I will say that my brother always found the physical act of writing to have been uncomfortable, and I am pretty certain that his execrable writing cost him in exams, state, university and law exams. These days, with keyboards, it is a lot easier for guys like him.

Him being a lefty is no excuse for poor handwriting. I'm a lefty, I typically write almost upside-down as you describe and my writing is far from execrable. It's quite nice actually.

Yes, I did suffer pain but that was from having to push down on the paper in my writing position to make the crappy ballpoints we all used actually lay down ink. A fountain pen fixed that. A fine nib, quicker-drying ink and everything was peachy.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm a lefty. Changing to a fountain pen made everything much easier. Not having to push down on the page meant I could bring my hand down a bit which cut out any cramping I used to get.

The ink just flows, the colours are amazing plus there's a nerdy community out there who like them just as much as I do. I don't have anything super fancy, my most expensive is a Lamy Safari, but what I do have I really enjoy using.
[doublepost=1455188224][/doublepost]

Him being a lefty is no excuse for poor handwriting. I'm a lefty, I typically write almost upside-down as you describe and my writing is far from execrable. It's quite nice actually.

Yes, I did suffer pain but that was from having to push down on the paper in my writing position to make the crappy ballpoints we all used actually lay down ink. A fountain pen fixed that. A fine nib, quicker-drying ink and everything was peachy.

Fair enough - I hear you and take your point. Moreover, I'll take the opportunity to pass on your message of 'him being a lefty is no excuse for poor handwriting' with something approaching sadistic glee.

However, I mentioned it as I am familiar with his writing problems and have noticed that some other lefties have also experienced difficulties.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, using fountain pens served to transform my own handwriting - which had been an unpleasant scrawl at school, when I wrote with the sort of ballpoints that everyone used - so that it is now extremely legible.

 

[saberahul]

A very nice pen; may you long enjoy using it. How do you find it as a writer, or, to write with?

Writes relatively well. Not the smoothest, but great nonetheless. Problem is that ink cartridges are small and run out quickly.

 

[dyn]

Can we not accept that some people (and I have met some Government Ministers in what could be described as poor, war torn countries who did this) use fountain pens as status symbols?

I'm not and never was talking about fountain pens not being a status symbol nor people seeing them or even using them as such. I'm only arguing the statement that fountain pens are designed as such (they are not). Which I have had to continuously repeat in each post because some people don't think it is necessary to read others posts...

Likewise, can we not accept that they used to be used a lot in formal settings, - such as signing treaties - at a time when the world wrote with them - but are less likely to be used nowadays, - not just because of the commemorative gifts you mentioned, but because most people are no longer comfortable using them? Moreover, can we not admit that they are still sometimes used in formal settings and that some still use them all the time (among whom you can count your humble scribe?)

Since I made those statements and explained them repeatedly; who are you asking those questions?

Left handed people in most cases don't like to use fountain pens as they write at a special angle (most nibs are not suitable for this, only specially crafted ones) and because of the ink that smear the (left) hand (and paper) moving from left to right.

Don't forget that a rollerball is just a ballpoint with fountain pen ink. Visconti has had a set (the purple Rembrandt??) where you can change between fountain pen and rollerball as do other brands. That means you also have the smearing problem (same ink, same properties). Luckily there are some fast drying inks that a lot of lefties use. Match that with the right paper and it shouldn't be a problem (this is one of the areas where Moleskine plus fountain pen actually is quite a success).

The problem with fountain pens is prejudice and a lack of knowledge a lot of people have. Not being able to write fast, lefties can't use it because it smears and so on are some examples.

@saberahul: can't it use one of those cartridge converters? They usually hold more ink than the ordinary ink cartridges.

 

[adn rcd dly]

I love writing instruments and journals very much. I know this is a thread for fountain pens, but I have been looking for a pen I saw on imgur with no luck. I've tried asking the artist directly as well as google reverse image, but nothing comes up. If I posted the picture of the pen here, would you guys be willing to give it a go at identifying? Every other "pen" search in the forum came back with stylus pens for devices and tablets.

Thanks for the consideration

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Hello, adn rcd dly. Please, post the picture of the pen, if we can, we will help by all means.

 

[saberahul]

@dyn great suggestion. Didn't think of that. I'll look online and see if I can find one that fits it

 

[cambookpro]

Kind of off topic but does anyone here go to the fountain pen subreddit over at reddit?

I visit it fairly often but haven't really got the hang of Reddit yet. There is quite an active pen trading/selling subreddit there too, bought a TWSBI Eco last week and it's wonderful!

The main site I visit is Fountain Pen Network every week or so.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking forward to Lamy's 50th anniversary - apparently there will be some commemorative models released in October-ish.

 

[Lostanddamned]

@dyn - your point that of “only human psychology has given it value, therefore it has no value" has a few critical flaws. The existence of money and written language. Shiny bits of rock or metal have no value, and neither do randomly shaped runes. Except, of course, that having a large connection of shiny rocks and metal is, to most people, quite a desirable trait which could be used - thanks to the value the human psyche has placed on it - to refer ones life more pleasant. Equally a collection of weird squiggly lines on paper has been known to render someone into tears, or feelings of great elation, simply due to the value that society has placed on them.

–––

@cambookpro if you are still looking to pass off some of your pens to someone in the UK, I wouldn’t say no - I promise to look after them better than this one!

–––

As for my fountain pen, it’s not as nice as the ones everyone else seems to be showing, its a heavily battered Parker Urban. I use it daily, and a lot of the chrome has worn off the clip and end, but it still gets the job done. Loaded with black ink, mostly used on Moleskins because I somehow buy into that hype.