Four RCMPs tasered a defenseless man

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by teflon, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. teflon macrumors 6502a

    teflon

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    #1
    http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=ddf27c77-7671-43cd-aad3-be49bf2eb471&k=86270
    This is absolutely sick. Aren't the police suppose to protect the people? I no longer feel safe in the city, much less the airport that I use at least twice a year.
    His mother was waiting for him for years to come home. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/airport_death_071025?s_name=&no_ads= I feel so bad for his family :(.
    Here's the link to the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftp7IQph0_o
     
  2. Leareth macrumors 68000

    Leareth

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    #2
    Did you watch the video?

    they did not taser him to death, they tasered him twice and then struggled with him on the floor for a couple of minutes. one cop put his knee on the guys neck - that is what probably killed him.

    Yeah it is sad - but there is more to this story than cops just randomly tasering a guy which lead to his death.

    I am more worried about the gang violence than about the RCMP tasering me.
     
  3. Kamera RAWr macrumors 65816

    Kamera RAWr

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    #3
    Although, what does that have to do with this unfortunate event?

    I'd like to hear the final cause of death. Definitely more something I'd expect to see in the US :eek:
     
  4. Leareth macrumors 68000

    Leareth

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    #4
    I am replying to the OP's " I no longer feel safe in this city" comment.

    knowing cause of death wont really change the situation - the guy is dead.
     
  5. BreederCreature macrumors member

    BreederCreature

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    #5
    "...can I taser him?"
    "Yea."

    That's a bit unsettling I'd say. He says that before they even talk to the guy. They had every intention of tasering him regardless of the situation.
     
  6. synth3tik macrumors 68040

    synth3tik

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    #6
    In Minneapolis the Police removed "To protect and Serve" from their cars about 10 years ago, and yes we have some real jerk cops around here. I don't think cops should have tasers, they seem to always go way overboard with them. But then again in Minneapolis it is better then 6 officers pumping you full with 50 rounds.
     
  7. Kamera RAWr macrumors 65816

    Kamera RAWr

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    #7
    I'd just like to know if the officers did something improperly or anything of that nature is all. I don't know if the knee comment you made earlier convinces me. Just like to know the final determination is all.
     
  8. lil'homunculus macrumors regular

    lil'homunculus

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    #8
    there are a lot of 'death in custody' investigations going on in this country right now, stay posted. USA could learn from this.
     
  9. teflon thread starter macrumors 6502a

    teflon

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    #9
    I think that would rule out a broken neck as the cause of death. Shouldn't they be able to tell that quite easily?
     
  10. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #10
    From the full description given in other reports by the numerous witnesses, it doesn't sound like the police handled this right. In fact, I think it's safe to say that they went overboard.

    After hearing this, I would still feel safe living in Vancouver, or Toronto in my case. However, the police who tasered him went way overboard. The man did calm down, and when the RCMP finally did come, he was calm, had his hands over his head, and looked ready to "surrender", or at least willing to go calmly. Why taser him then? He was ready to be taken away like he should have been, and yet the police went to the taser. Surely there's 1 or 2,...... or 10 alternatives that must be considered before the tasers come out.
     
  11. gnasher729 macrumors P6

    gnasher729

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    #11
    The idea of the taser is that the police should use it in a dangerous situation where otherwise they would have to shoot someone. This situation was absolutely not life threatening - the guy was in an enclosed area, and the police could have just walked away from him.

    A video of police handling a very different calibre of suspect was shown on TV a few years ago. A guy wielding a Samurai sword and as far as one could see completely bonkers. Police surrounded him at a distance. The police correctly concluded that the only person in danger was the guy with the sword, because there were enough armed policemen around to shoot him if he came too close to anybody with his sword. So they kept their distance from him and made sure he couldn't attack anyone. The stand-off took several hours until he gave up because he was too tired. That was half a dozen of policemen working very, very hard to save the life of a madman with a sword.
     
  12. Leareth macrumors 68000

    Leareth

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    #12
    I never said broken neck,
    I meant lack of oxygen to brain due to the cop cutting off blood supply.
    That is why you never 'choke' somewho who was just tasered.
    And four cops handling a guy who has been tasered is not overkill. I have seen some tasered guys throw cops off them while down on the ground.

    The video clip is the last few minutes of a 10+hour ordeal, we are all making snap judgements about behaviour of the people involved with out knowing the background.
     
  13. Virgil-TB2 macrumors 65816

    Virgil-TB2

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    #13
    I don't think this is true at all.

    Most of the basic details are known and there is the excellent clear video of the event. Also, most of the people on this thread seem to be (like me), from the Vancouver area and are familiar enough with the abuses of the Vancouver City and RCMP police detachments. This leaves us fairly qualified IMO to make judgements about what occurred.

    These judgements are also not "snap" judgments by definition since the story has been evolving for over a week in the media. Anyone who lives in the area has also seen numerous "video dissections" on the news with frame by frame blowups and sub-titles.

    The thing I find humorous about the whole situation though is that this kind of thing happens day in and day out on the "bad" side of town. This is a classic police takedown, and the immediate takedown of the "bad guy" is (in practice), standard procedure even though it's clearly illegal and against all the rules to do so. This raving, sweaty, foreigner was a "bad guy" to the cops, i.e. - not someone worthy of care or deference, not a "real" (middle-class) citizen. Seemingly, they thought he was a bum or a druggie and acted the way they always act with bums and druggies. Slam them to the ground without warning, cuff them and search them. Standard procedure for all "low life."

    Of course it turned out this guy was neither a bum nor a druggie but unfortunately for him, merely "looked that way." This is one of those rare occasions when the middle class discovers something that every long-haired guy, brown skinned guy or poor person on the east side of Vancouver has known their whole life. Living in Vancouver I know for a fact that quite a large number of poor, indian, and/or drug addicted people die in police custody. They just don't have any pull with the media because they are, well... poor brown-skinned druggies.

    Cops IMO are mostly power-hungry macho men who honestly don't give a sh*t about "right and wrong." This incident is itself a rather perfect example in that the four cops in question got together with their commander and told a huge series of lies about what happened not knowing that the camera was on them and did not realise they would be found out later. This is the "Blue wall" in action, lying cheating and breaking the law to protect one of their own. In their minds this is justified because as we all know cops are better human beings than the rest of us and are "worth more" to society. :rolleyes:

    In my experience, cops see themselves more like soldiers than the original "peace officer" concept. They see themselves as heros of their own badly scripted action movies or war games; protecting the population from the "bad guys" who they think they have the power to detect on instinct alone. Sadly, class profiling, like racial profiling, is just another kind of prejudice and the world is a whole lot more complex than their X-Box addled brains can conceive of.
     
  14. ~David macrumors regular

    ~David

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    #14
    I'd just like to bring up a point that some seem to have forgotten.

    When you die from electrocution, you die right then and there, you don't die 30 minutes/seconds later, it's instantaneous. The man who was tasered died afterwards, not as he was tasered. If he died from the shock, he would have dropped like a rock. All deaths "caused by tasers" have had other implications, such as drugs or heart conditions which lead to the deaths afterwards, none of them were caused by the initial shock.

    Now, I will say this, he shouldn't have been tasered. As others mentioned, he wasn't doing anything to harm the officers or those around him, he wasn't a threat in any way. They used excessive force, without a doubt.

    What I really don't understand, is why nobody attempted to revive the man after he went unconscious.

    What did he die of? I don't know. I'm willing to guess heart attack from all the shock, but that is 100% speculation. Nobody here knows what killed him, and nobody will know for a long time.

    I still welcome tasers as an alternative tool for Police Officers. For the 18 or so recorded deaths "caused by tasers", there's hundreds of lives that have been saved/spared because of them. People often say that guns should just be used, and that Officers can just aim for their legs or arms when they shoot to just disarm the suspect. Trust me, that can't be done, I know first hand. When you're in a flash situation and you need to quickly defend your self, you have no time to aim, you just shoot.

    Back to the initial topic, I don't know exactly what happened, the video only tells the story from one person's point of view, and it's not for me or any of us to judge the situation. All we can do is wait and see.
     
  15. Leareth macrumors 68000

    Leareth

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    #15
    Thank you,
    this are the points I wanted to get across.
    mainly the response to the OP's "man tasered to death"- he wasn't, he probably died from lack of oxygen in brain- the autospy results show clarify things.
     
  16. teflon thread starter macrumors 6502a

    teflon

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    #16
    Ok, after reading Leareth and ~David's posts, I'll change the title to "Four RCMPs tasered a defenseless man". In my opinion, he was defenseless, he was holding his hands up and without a weapon. I still think what they did to him was sick, regardless of the cause of the death. But thanks to Leareth and ~David for correcting me on the cause of the death though.
     
  17. munchmime macrumors member

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    #17
    siesturbing

    Everyone criticizes Police, but those who criticize would not, will not become police officers. Then they call the police because they themselves need help...

    It is a tough high stress high adrenaline profession that takes it's toll on a person. Remember these people see and take care of things that the rest of the community do not see, can not see, or will not condone. then we run them down. They see the worst in humanity day in and day out, while the rest of us go on about our lives - some of us in a fairy-tale world.
    SAFETY is an IDEA, not matter what, you will never be totally safe.
    that is life, people USED TO understand that.

    We also run down the police as a whole saying they are all bad, when that is not the case. In fact only the squeaky wheel gets attention, and when you have a bad cop, or a bad situation, that gets attention.

    I feel the need to clarify some things because of my own thought pattern. WOULD any of you who bash the police, do their job for their pay? Do any of you really want to possibly put yourself into those types of situations?
    Do you seriously think that EVER cop is there just to kill and beat people?
    Is that why they take the job?

    PEACE OFFICER, and POLICE officer are totally different. I was a peace officer. There is a big difference in powers of arrest and authority.
    I have had training in this area. I see some things in this video that could have been handled differently, BUT, YOU can see clearly that the man DEFINITELY DID NOT put his hands up as to show he was calm. It was IN frustration. So next time anyone of you are upset with someone and throw your hands up, remember to think of it like YOUR Surrendering to that person if you see it this way in the video.

    Tasers... People react in spasms to electricity. Just because someone is on the ground convulsing does not mean he was shocked again, and again.
    They would go stiff if shocked again, and then start to spasm and writhe in pain.

    Cops tend to throw people, yes... the element of surprise to protect their "safety". the same concept as a person who would try sucker punch them and take their weapon(THAT DOES HAPPEN).
    My problem with comments about that, is that YOU, and average untrained citizen, who may or may not have martial arts exp. thinks what they SEE is what is actually happening. When anyone of you put your life willingly out there for my "safety", You yourself will start to see things differently from the sheltered view that you have - I will then start to accept your opinion on such issues that WE DO NOT CLEARLY KNOW BOTH SIDES OF.

    There are also cases where someone dies because they are on their stomach, when officers SHOULD turn them on their sides. This is perhaps something that should have happened, but then again not all police depts. train for this sort of thing. This is something that typically happens with PCP, but has been known to happen in other ways.

    The electricity did not initially kill him, though it could have contributed to his death.

    Cops are cops, they deal with bad every day, then they have to deal with everyone running them down because of the judgments that they have to make, some times in seconds.

    Also, this man could have died if there was a scuffle with the officers.
    So? they used tasers? ANYONE that was at the airport could have decided to try to wrestle him to the ground too...? and the man could have also died.

    lastly those of you who run down police:
    Generally when your polite and respectful with Police, even if you and they know that you just did wrong, your politeness will get you a lot of leeway and possibly out of a lot of trouble.
     
  18. mcarnes macrumors 68000

    mcarnes

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    #18
  19. teflon thread starter macrumors 6502a

    teflon

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    #19
    So am I not allowed to criticize actors when I go see a movie then? I can't say the acting was bad because I have no intention of becoming an actor? And when I want entertainment later I can no longer go to the movie theatre? If no one questions, whether it be the police, or the doctors or our government, then they'd be able to do whatever they want. So just because they dedicated their lives to protecting people, they could do no wrong? Just because they've worked hard before and did save lives doesn't give them the right to do whatever they want with other lives now.

    And would any police take the job of an accountant, or a scientist for their pay? It's a profession that they chose, a profession that they supposedly should love. Not everyone wants that profession, just like I wouldn't take the job or the pay of a scientist simply because I hate the sciences. (No offense to those who loves science, but I hate labs). They chose the job, now they have to fulfill it. Just as a surgeon can't just purposely mess up an operation then say oh, well would any of you want to do my job for my pay? Do you want to put yourself in a situation when a person's life is in your hands? You took the job, now take the responsibilities.

    He looked scared too me, and even if he was frustrated, 4 trained men can't take down one unarmed, tired man who probably didn't have much to eat since he had been in holding for 10 hrs?

    Yea, except he didn't speak a word of English. He has been in holding for 10 hours, probably hungry and tired from his flight, and anxious to see his mother whom he thought he would see immediately after he landed.
     
  20. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #20
    What is sick is the taser was supposed to be the safer alternative to a gun.

    And it quickly became the alternative to messing up your hair in a tussle, or working up a sweat chasing somebody.

    Basically quickly became a replacement, or long distance baton.

    ---

    At least cameras on guns and tasers are around the corner, along with cop cams.
     
  21. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #21
    But gangs aren't supposed to protect people. The police are. There's a thread in the political forums where we were talking about this and another similar incident.

    Only when the screw up. Which they did here. Only by criticizing do we, and they, show that this type of thing is unacceptable. We should be able to count on them if we're in trouble, not be afraid of them overreacting and making things worse.

    That's not excuse.

    Again, only when they screw up, which in this case they clearly have. Then they tried to cover it up, saying it didn't happen that way until the video came out. Instead of excusing it, they should be pointing out that it's not acceptable, no matter what. Or maybe, not letting it happen in the first place. And I don't see anyone here saying all police are bad.

    Not the issue. They're the police officers. They chose to be police. There are rules they have to live by, just as any of us do with our jobs. If they screw something up, just like the rest of us, they should be held accountable. If they can't deal with it, maybe they shouldn't be in that profession, or should at least seek professional help to deal with it.

    No one is saying that at all. These cops, who may otherwise be exemplary, or may not, went overboard. They did something they shouldn't have. They should have handled the situation better, but didn't, so they should be held accountable and those in charge should work harder to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    Those of us who've read about it know the whole situation. And despite what they tried say happened before the video came out, we have the video of the entire incident. They might not have known the whole story when they showed up, but that's the point. They didn't know the situation. They just went right for the tasers. Sloppy police work, and in this case, the consequences were deadly.

    Then they should.

    They made the wrong decision, and trying to defend that just makes it seem like it's acceptable. Which it isn't. If I screwed up in my job I'd be held accountable. Maybe even fired. So would a doctor, who also has to deal with stress and life or death situations. If they can't make the right decisions, they either need better training, or to not be in that job.

    But that's not what happened. We're dealing with what did. They tasered him without provocation. Then he died. A lot of things could have happened where he didn't have to die. Had he from other circumstances, we could have dealt with it then. Tasers should not be a replacement for real police work.

    We aren't running down "the police", we're running down these officers who went too far and made a bad decision that cost an innocent man his life. Defending them doesn't help anyone. It makes it look like this is something they should be able to do without impunity, which is what makes people hate the police. We should do whatever we can to make sure it doesn't happen again. Also why the public should know. If you'd read about it, you'd see that before the video came out, the original story they told was different. The public needs to know what's going on so it doesn't keep happening.

    I do respect the police, but I expect them to respect the law and my rights in return, and not make situations like this worse. And if they don't, it's kind of hard for me to respect them. But again, this is about those officers, not all of them. Unless this becomes pattern and acceptable among them, then it does just make them all look bad.
     
  22. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #22
    This incident is now being investigated as a homicide by the RCMP's Integrated Homicide Investigation Team. I am reassured by how seriously the airport authority and the RCMP are investigating this situation.
     
  23. munchmime macrumors member

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    #23

    I WAS NOT DEFENDING THESE OFFICERS. I DID SAY THAT I SAW THINGS IN THE VIDEO THAT COULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY.

    MY COMMENTS WERE DIRECTED TOWARDS THESE REMARKS(and people with like comments citing all police as a whole):
    REMARKS, like this in which people tend to seem educated on things they do not understand completely.
    You can tell me about all other professions yadda, yadda - and I can site misrepresentation, malpractice, negligence, etc.
    NO ONE is perfect. But we do not group Doctors, Lawyers, Scientists, Teachers in one bunch and say all of them are bad. BUT, when it comes to POLICE, it seems the majority of people group them all in one category as was stated in the comments by virgil. (my wife included- and i was a peace officer.)
    And speaking of DOCTORS? Lawyers? doctors get a slap on the hand from the board a bunch of times before they really have to be held accountable.
    Lawyers, the same thing. Then they serve a suspension...
    NOW I AM NOT SAYING THIS AS ALL ARE THAT WAY, but it sounded like I was just to prove a point.... (words on line have to be interpreted.) if you do the research though, you will find staggering numbers on those issues. One could even be YOUR Dr..

    I MYSELF know many Police, Peace officers, Fire Officers (arson), etc. I know the bad, I know the good.

    Believe you me, if this man would have been hit with a night stick and died, everyone would be yelling the same thing. OR how about good old fashioned POLICE WORK - THE BLACK JACK.... HMMMMMMM...
    Most of us would avoid a bar fight or a street fight if we could? Why must officers have to do it if it can be avoided. Next your going to say pepper spray and mace make us bad people too, or how about the non lethal sound, laser, or bean bag guns....

    Do any of you realize how much damage a distressed man can do to bunch of people? I WISH I HAD ROOM TO PUT ALL THE VIDEOS I HAVE ONLINE SO YOU COULD SEE. One man can take out 6 to 8 cops easily if they aren't ready. You say "They should be ready." I say you try to read someones mind and react in .02 seconds. Ready for that means you are already swinging to defend yourself. just tell a friend to swing at you in a future conversation, and see how fast you can react to the surprise, let alone everyone in a 10ft. radius. there is a big time lag there. I hope you have i sturdy jaw.

    ONCE AGAIN I AM NOT DEFENDING THESE SPECIFIC COPS, I AM SPEAKING ON THE WHOLE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE.

    I have always said that POLICE need more training; in apprehension, and self defense than they get. THEY NEED MORE SCENARIO based training to deal with situations like these.
    But training like that costs us more in taxes, and we cry about that.
    Here is an excellent set of 2 videos that would have really helped these officers in this situation... your going to see knife vs. gun, presented by two of the most expert people in their profession. TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT THIS CAN TRANSLATE EASILY INTO HAND TO HAND... or stapler to hand...
    not for the weak stomach, you will see a little gore in the beginning.
    http://dogbrothersvideo.com/interfacetrailer_large.wmv

    and this one on the home page [play the DLO2 on the right]
    http://www.dogbrothers.com/


    OHHHHH GREAT, political. You can bet we will never find the truth. THE REAL truth. we will get versions of it, just like David Coppefield's magic...
    ohhh we all saw the statue of liberty disappear, but we knew that wasn't real.
    Write your DA, and your Law makers, tell them how you want the out come. I'm sure that it will be made that way if enough of you write in.

    Now as smart citizens - we should know that an independent non government affiliated group should review this, and render their decision.
    instead, we just may get what NYC got from its officers who last screwed up this bad, a suspension or two.

    >>>>>walks away shaking head.... mumbling<<<

    There is no one more disappointed in the system than me.

    Please no flaming. we can poke holes in each others views all day.

    I say the best solution to all of this is BETTER TRAINING. the question is how do we do that? You and I drive differently, therefore we think differently. How do we train for the same situation? How do we train for unknown circumstances? HOW do you train law enforcement to do the same? and how do you keep that up to date? all on a budget?
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #24
  25. aquajet macrumors 68020

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    #25
    It's very easy to make such an assertion, but I remain somewhat skeptical. What are the details behind the instances in which a taser was used? If law enforcement didn't have tasers, would bullets have been used? I'd like to see some data before I accept this as a valid argument.

    IMO, every video shown in the media showing an officer tasing a person, it appears to be an excessive use of force. In the event an officer engages in improper use of a taser, they must be held accountable. Banning the officer from law enforcement, civil and criminal penalties, etc. come to mind.

    That was clearly uncalled for. That officer ought to be fired and held criminally responsible.
     

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