France Asks EU to Examine Apple's Removal of AppGratis From the App Store

[Lennholm]

Last time I checked, it was Apples' App Store. They own it, they curate it. What is there to examine?

"Last time I checked, Windows was Microsofts product. What's there to object to them bundling it with their own web browser?.." This didn't stop the EU either.

Agreed. I think a Ford auto dealership should sell VWs and that I should be able to buy any brand of car in any dealership.

There's a HUGE difference between only selling your own products and taking on the responsibility of opening a retailing platform for 3rd party products where you arbitrarily block whatever you feel like.

 

[gotluck]

"Last time I checked, Windows was Microsofts product. What's there to object to them bundling it with their own web browser?.." This didn't stop the EU either.

The popular argument is that Apple doesn't have a monopoly like MS does/did. I wish the eu the best in getting some changes to iOS structure.

 

[Dr McKay]

I can promise you that Apple would decide to stop selling iPhones in France before they would give up their currated store.

If it went through, it'd be EU-Wide. The EU is a collection of 27 countries and have a combined population of over 500 Million. Apple wouldn't just stop selling there.

 

[Fraaaa]

Last weekend Apple removed AppGratis from the App Store for violating two iOS developer guidelines: 2.25 and 5.6, which prohibit, respectively, apps that exist merely to promote or market third-party apps, and apps that use push notifications for marketing or promotional purposes.

That's the idea behind AppGratis, a free app that tells you about other free apps -- but only one per day. Each is hand-picked, tested, and reviewed, so there's a good chance it's something cool and worthwhile, not some crummy waste of space.

I don't see how this is Apple's fault. It appears to me that their guidelines are well known. I wouldn't expect a company to make an application that goes directly against guidelines, neither call this behaviour extremely brutal and unilateral.

 

[Rogifan]

There are many dealerships. One apple.

If apple rejects your app you cannot sell it anywhere else.

But you can make an app for Android, Windows Phone 8 and Blackberry, no?

 

[gotluck]

But you can make an app for Android, Windows Phone 8 and Blackberry, no?

Shouldn't people have just 'bought a Mac' rather than have the EU case vs MS?

 

[lolkthxbai]

Develop for Android then. There are other places they can make their app for. It's Apple App Store, if they don't want it, they shouldn't add it. Besides, Apple made rules, they clearly saw their app went against Apple's rules. It isn't Apple's fault the idiots raised money to build an app that is clearly not even allowed on the App Store.

I can't imagine it would be an option for them. At least not one they would like very much because the selection in the android store is fragmented and doesn't bear the same fruit as the AppStore.

EDIT: And they're loving the press, check out their website lmao

 

[Porco]

I see both sides of this story. On one side, I can appreciate that it must be immensely frustrating for devs to pour time, effort and money into a project that can then possibly be blocked by Apple on the pickiest and flimsiest basis.

On the other hand though, everyone knows the rules going in. It is inherently risky to base your business on the whims of another company. If you are risk averse, there is Android, and there is the possibility of building stuff in HTML 5 as a web app. No-one is forcing anyone to take the risk on building an iOS app.

The other side of this is that Apple stands to lose ground if devs become wary of investing too much in iOS apps, so it is in everyone's interests to be clear as possible about what is and isn't allowed, and be consistent about it.

And remember, there was huge demand for 3rd-party native apps after the iPhone was launched, but Apple didn't have to even allow them in the first place. Apple made that demand work for them, but (for the most part) made clear rules about what they would and wouldn't allow. I think many reasonable people could have told the makers of AppGratis it was likely to fall foul of App Store rules. They took a gamble anyway. They lost.

Of course there is no reason I can see why AppGratis couldn't return in the form of a web app that is tailored for iOS screens.

 

[KPOM]

You cant have a huge marketshare and block competitors from releasing software for your product. Sure, if you're small enough, nobody will care, but sooner or later, someone will challenge it.

But they aren't blocking a competitor. The agreement explicitly restricts software from their store that promotes software from other vendors, as well as advertisements that use the notification system. There are valid reasons for that which aren't anticompetitive. I don't want to receive spam notifications from the apps I download. Apple may not want advertisements disguising themselves as "apps."

 

[The Phazer]

The popular argument is that Apple doesn't have a monopoly like MS does/did. I wish the eu the best in getting some changes to iOS structure.

But it's a wrong argument, as the test in the EU is "significant market power with the ability to distort pricing". Companies with 40%-ish market share have had actions taken against them before.

But they aren't blocking a competitor. The agreement explicitly restricts software from their store that promotes software from other vendors, as well as advertisements that use the notification system. There are valid reasons for that which aren't anticompetitive. I don't want to receive spam notifications from the apps I download. Apple may not want advertisements disguising themselves as "apps."

That's not a valid reason. It's a valid reason for Apple to make sure the app or it's selling platform clearly displays what will happen before purchase.

 

[ugahairydawgs]

I see both sides of this story. On one side, I can appreciate that it must be immensely frustrating for devs to pour time, effort and money into a project that can then possibly be blocked by Apple on the pickiest and flimsiest basis.

On the other hand though, everyone knows the rules going in. It is inherently risky to base your business on the whims of another company. If you are risk averse, there is Android, and there is the possibility of building stuff in HTML 5 as a web app. No-one is forcing anyone to take the risk on building an iOS app.

The other side of this is that Apple stands to lose ground if devs become wary of investing too much in iOS apps, so it is in everyone's interests to be clear as possible about what is and isn't allowed, and be consistent about it.

And remember, there was huge demand for 3rd-party native apps after the iPhone was launched, but Apple didn't have to even allow them in the first place. Apple made that demand work for them, but (for the most part) made clear rules about what they would and wouldn't allow. I think many reasonable people could have told the makers of AppGratis it was likely to fall foul of App Store rules. They took a gamble anyway. They lost.

Of course there is no reason I can see why AppGratis couldn't return in the form of a web app that is tailored for iOS screens.

That won't happen until Android users, categorically, start paying for apps. Devs are always going to follow the money and, for the forseeable future, that's with iOS.

 

[Derpage]

From the Reuters article "In an email to Reuters, Apple said it had had a discussion with AppGratis before removing it from its platform and that the company had disregarded its technical specifications."

So you agree with Apple in principle.

Yes, I do. However, there are larger powers at play which the person I was replying to seemed to forget.

 

[Porco]

That won't happen until Android users, categorically, start paying for apps. Devs are always going to follow the money and, for the forseeable future, that's with iOS.

Yes, I agree, with how things are now - the rejections and removals from the App store are low enough in number and reasonable enough in nature (with the odd weird exception) that it's worth the risk - but it's still something that Apple needs to be aware of. I'm sure they are.

The other part of the risk from over-zealous crackdowns on rules etc is that apps that require larger investment will taper off and we'll just be left with lower risk apps that have lower development budgets, even if they are still on iOS for the sales.

 

[Fishticks]

Since when did the EU rule USA?

The EU rules the EU and Apple does not. If they want to sell their product in the EU, they have to comply with local laws and rules.

Or they can restrain themselves to the american market, the only one where people still think Apple "rules" and where too many don't care to have their rights trampled.

PS: since when AAPL = USA ?

 

[BC2009]

Retail stores don't have to carry items they they don't want to because those items can be sold at other retail stores. With the App Store, an ios app cannot be sold anywhere else. So if Apple can just determine arbitrarily what apps can and can't be sold, they can effectively destroy the software companies because there is no other market (IOS apps will only work on iOS, and can only be bought from the App Store.) That is extraordinary power, and frankly too much power. I don't get why some people can't see this.

The key difference is that if one retailer doesn't have the product that you want then you can buy from a retailer that does.

Apple, on the other hand, actively prevents any other retailer from selling iOS apps.

Maybe one of you can explain to me what about AppGratis made it so it would only run on iOS. It could easily be written for Android. It's not like it was a highly sophisticated app.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Apple should have removed it because you had to choose to install it and if the push notifications got annoying you could have simply disabled them for that app.

But I don't think the EU should look at 'iOS Apps" as their own market. Apps are apps. Twitter essentially is doing the same thing and destroying the businesses of many software developers. It sucks, but it is there platform. Just like the App Store and iOS belong to Apple.

Is it the platform providers responsibility to ensure that any endeavor on their platform is allowed to proceed and that they accommodate it? I really don't think so, because we have so many platforms we can choose to write for.

If Apple does this sort of thing with apps that people actually care about then I can see the decent app developers leaving the platform. So far they have only seemed to exclude the stuff that is crud. The only other thing that makes news is the occasional app rejections that get blown out of proportion before the developer conforms to the iOS development rules.

 

[Stella]

But you can make an app for Android, Windows Phone 8 and Blackberry, no?

Once more: You cannot sell your iOS App that you've just developed if Apple rejects it. AppleStore or no store.

 

[DMH3006]

I don't get it,Apple has guidelines and you must follow them to get your app published,their app got approved but on a 2nd view of the app they noticed that it broke some guidelines and removed it,whats the big issue? If apple feels they are not abiding by the guidelines they have the right to remove it. How's this brutal?

 

[lolkthxbai]

LOL honestly, up unitl now, I never even heard of this "AppGratis" app and didn't really understand completely their model. But now that I do, it's really just a glorified mailing list in an app. This definitely deserved the ax, if not for the "appstore-in-an-AppStore" rule then for the "useless website in an app" rule.

Honestly, after reading their blog post about how they were previously being reviewed for 3 different violations they would bother to realize that maybe they were in trouble.

I guess C. and K. were just too easy on them and it took R. to really get them to realize what they were doing was wrong according to apple's terms.

 

[Consultant]

Somehow AppGratis forgot to mention their business model: they charge companies money to push their apps to top of App Store top lists.

 

[Small White Car]

France isn't the only EU country you know!

If it went through, it'd be EU-Wide. The EU is a collection of 27 countries and have a combined population of over 500 Million. Apple wouldn't just stop selling there.

This article is about France making noise. If anyone else in the EU starts listening to them, I'll start talking about the EU. But until they do I'm going to match my words to who's doing the complaining in the present.

 

[thaifood]

I don't see anything wrong with a company (eg, Apple) enforcing its own guidelines. It doesn't come across as shrewd or greedy, it's just business - Apple are simply protecting themselves with their regulations. Completely normal, in my opinion.

The French call for a review is blown out of proportion. The media tend to grab anything with "Apple" in the headlines and go for broke. Nothing like generating clicks!

 

[etrinh]

lol. But apples marketshare is a pittance compared to android. Monopoly clause doesn't work

I agree in one respect, but in another respect you could turn around and say "Well Windows is Microsoft's operating system, they own it, they are free to stop any non-microsoft application working on it, or anything that competes with them".

Eventually a government (or more likely, the EU and US combined) will open an antitrust case (just as they did with Microsoft) and Apple will be forced to allow 3rd party app installations. Obviously Apple can do it in such a way that makes it more worthwhile for people to go via their appstore, but it wouldnt be at all surprising to see everyone+dog jump on the bandwagon and open a bunch of stores on the iPhone.

You cant have a huge marketshare and block competitors from releasing software for your product. Sure, if you're small enough, nobody will care, but sooner or later, someone will challenge it.

----------

The App Store developer guidelines didn't change overnight. Where was the legal dept for appgratis? Shouldn't legal have read the guidelines and make sure their business model doesn't run afoul of apples rules?

This. AppGratis supposedly just closed a multi-million dollar seed funding round. Now the company has effectively been shut down by Apple.

It is not in the public interest for Apple to have that amount of power over other businesses. Only the law should have that power.

 

[ElTorro]

The question is, will they pull Pandora when Apple's steaming radio service starts?
It is after all directly competes with a core Apple feature, just like those pulled apps similar to Siri.

 

[Rocco83]

Honestly I don't see why people get so butt hurt over this.

If your child had a lemonade stand set up in your yard and sold lemonade for $.50 a glass, and your neighbors child set up a stand in your yard and sold lemonade for $.25 you find this to be fine?

It is Apple's sandbox. If they don't want you playing in their sandbox that is their choice. You play by their rules or you don't play at all. They didn't design their iOS and App Store for other companies to make money. They did it for them to make money. They don't owe any company trying to make money off their App Store anything.

It all sounds like socialistic drivel from Atlas Shrugged thinking companies should only be out to enrich peoples lives rather than try to make a profit by crushing competition.

 

[haruhiko]

If Apple decided to remove all these "free app offer" apps, they could've at least improve their "free app of the week" offerings. This week it is Fruit Ninja from few years ago , while Starbucks gave us Angry Birds Star War!