France Fines Apple €8 Million for Targeted App Store Ads

[dwaite]

You mean like Netflix recommending movies or drama you may be interested in based on your past views? So I guess the French regulators are next going after Netflix, Disney, HBO, etc.?

I'm not familiar with the French regulation. Also, Apple is appealing the decision which means they feel there is at least a chance to change the results.

And there's unfortunately not enough technical details (in English) to really understand the finding of the court in terms of an outsider. Including, whether this was based on GDPR or a France-specific law.

So I can only speak in terms of GDPR - if Netflix is building a profile in order to provide a service, they have to disclose that the the user but can do so via something like a EULA.

If Netflix wants information not needed to provide their service, it needs to be opt-in, must be capable of being opted out of, etc.

Facebook got slapped recently with GDPR because "serving relevant ads" was not part of the core service from the user perspective of "message board".

AFAIK, Google has been doing this all the while. It did not start only recently.

Google has their own problems. They take a much less legally-guided tact to policy changes, which tend to get them in trouble that Apple does not get into.

AFAIK, ATT is designed to stop tracking across services, not within the same service.

Again, my less-than-attractive take is that this was the result of a French lobbying organization whose members were impacted by ATT. I would agree that it doesn't make sense from a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right perspective, but it does make sense from the perspective of companies that are worried that Apple is being hypocritical, and will attempt to take advertising revenue from them.

It is also worth noting that there is a substantial amount of app advertising which feeds into the App Store, and the device identifiers were used to track conversion and overall effectiveness of programs. I can certainly imagine this was actually about worries of Apple getting into the in-app advertising business and wanting to apply a lot more scrutiny.

 

[dwaite]

That's doable, you just have to subscribe to App Store Pro.

App Store+

 

[DeepIn2U]

That’s not even true. Germany just sued its own media house for using a wrong cookie banner. Guess what … you just don’t hear about it on MACrumors

Oh so how often are local EU businesses fined so much as Apple has for innovations that benefit their own business and not the competition?

Show me roughly 5 major EU businesses in Tech that are fined even as often or close to Apple the last 5yrs then?

I’m not just reading MacRumors for tech news sources. I don’t recall the EU dining Blackberry for their BBM and PIN messaging service which was not made open and unique ONLY to Blackberry.

 

[dwaite]

Not really. Even when you create an Google Account, it will ask you to allow personalized targeted ads or not. Apple should do the same upon setting up an AppleID. Not hide it in the settings AFTER you already completed your registration.

New PII retention does need a new prompt even for existing accounts.

I believe Apple is now is doing ad marketplace on the device - the device isn't sharing PII or how it made the decision on which ad to show or even WHICH ad was shown. Thus does not need permissions.

But I agree that there should be an all-or-nothing setting on whether Apple services show personalized ads even when it isn't a privacy impact, and that setting should be per Apple ID and not per-device.

 

[contacos]

Oh so how often are local EU businesses fined so much as Apple has for innovations that benefit their own business and not the competition?

Show me roughly 5 major EU businesses in Tech that are fined even as often or close to Apple the last 5yrs then?

I’m not just reading MacRumors for tech news sources. I don’t recall the EU dining Blackberry for their BBM and PIN messaging service which was not made open and unique ONLY to Blackberry.

We don’t have 5 major Tech businesses lol so I can’t do that but regarding your point of Blackberry, when was Apple fined for iMessage being exclusive to Apple devices? I don’t recall.

 

[freedomlinux]

What is "C8 million" in United States pesos?

€8 million is currently about $8.5 million US.

 

[VoxzeyWoxzey]

Settings>Privacy&Security>Apple Advertising>personalized ads>turn off

So we’re considering 5 steps to be a “large number” 😂

When you activate a brand new iPhone it’s one of the first options presented you.
Apple has not been collecting this information secretively. The EU reeks of desperation for money.

In their defense, they’re French. Asking them to go to work results in protests and claims of putting the man down.

 

[NightFox]

3: When will people learn that fines do not work: Fines do not work, because all the companies do is pass the expense off to the consumer.

That's a much-quoted fallacy, both for fines and other types of enforcement. The reality is that Apple (or any other company) will already be selling their products at the highest cost the market will bear. If they could increase the price (e.g. to absorb a fine or an imposed increase in operating costs) without it negatively affecting demand, they would have done so already.

When your profit margin is reduced due to increased costs, the way to try to maintain your overall profitability is actually to reduce selling price, thus increasing sales volume.

 

[johnmacward]

How is this shady of Apple?
Does the EU actually have proof Apple never asked for ads to the end user?
End users see this during activation steps of the iPhone and with App store it may have been months before.
Also did select US iOS users circumvent the prompt by using a USA registered iCloud account?

those that should be dragged by coat-tales LMAO sounds like a mob chant without fully looking into details. Funny how ALL of this NEVER was an issue until Apple became or hit the Trillion $ value mark!!!!

This has nothing to do with privacy or data ... it has to do with the EU asking for money from a USA giant operating in their view of control.

Considering they successfully fined the company €8m, I assume they’ve a fairly strong case. France isn’t exactly a corrupt dictatorship that beats up business when it wants some extra money on no basis. It has to do this by the book especially when you take on a company that has the resources to also make your life a misery. There is country level power in having trillions in the bank.

Does it not ?

Explain to me why not

Exactly, why does that not make sense to that poster. €8m is what Apple makes probably every few seconds - it's not at all an issue for Apple to pay. 10% of revenue, now that would put the fire under them.

 

[johnmacward]

In their defense, they’re French. Asking them to go to work results in protests and claims of putting the man down.

I live in France and the French people and I work damn hard (I'm not French). They have a social conscience and most protests relate to protecting mass-movement won social demands or preventing further capitalist encroachment, something any of us should know pisses on the work to enrich the owing bosses - the people have a decently healthy attitude disobedience of power that they elect and protest is a form of power when you don't have much. That's a wonderful thing to see and I'm on those protests quite frequently. America is an absolute backwater for workers and social rights (quite literally one of the worst in the world) with people just supposed to accept the insane and deeply harmful ebbs and flow of capital speculation resulting in a job one day and nothing the next.

Your simplistic statements about 'asking the French to work results in protests' shows more your own ignorance of current economics and the fact that you suffer from your own country's anti-union, anti-protest propaganda. Unless you're a fabulously wealthy business owner, you should be behind those protests for those fighting for a right to a decent life.

 

[johnmacward]

Apple should move their HQ2 to EU to make them chill. Currently, EU sees that they don't benefit economically from Apple yet Apple makes a lot of money from EU.

Your analysis is certainly that, 'an analysis' but why do we always have to be thinking that political plans are being hatched behind closed doors because some politicos are pissed off about something. Chances are that some citizens or a privacy rights group brought it to the attention of CNIL who were obligated to do something about it. Sometimes it can be THAT SIMPLE ! And it's a good rule because targeting me with ads in a phone that costs an average of €900 should not be acceptable. I don't want ads, full stop. There is NOTHING mandatory about ads on a phone, they're just another sales method of getting us to part with our hard earned cash and using a psychologically controversial method to do it - watching our internet behaviour. Why can't we stand up for ourselves as humans first, ones that don't want to be pandered to, manipulated, coerced into doing X or Y for consumerism.

 

[johnmacward]

We don’t have 5 major Tech businesses lol so I can’t do that but regarding your point of Blackberry, when was Apple fined for iMessage being exclusive to Apple devices? I don’t recall.

AND Safari is the only pre-installed option on an iPhone. There's lots of inconsistency out there because these EU organisations don't actually run after these companies. Mostly its rights organisations who bring the charge and hopefully motivate the government organisation to move their ass on doing something.

 

[webkit]

3: When will people learn that fines do not work: Fines do not work, because all the companies do is pass the expense off to the consumer. You wanna fix this issue, you court order all the upper and middle management to do community service projects (40-80 hours per person should do it). If that doesn’t work, you expand it to more people and/or time or prohibit that company from functioning in your area for a set amount of time (piss off share holders enough to vote changes)

That's a much-quoted fallacy, both for fines and other types of enforcement. The reality is that Apple (or any other company) will already be selling their products at the highest cost the market will bear. If they could increase the price (e.g. to absorb a fine or an imposed increase in operating costs) without it negatively affecting demand, they would have done so already.

When your profit margin is reduced due to increased costs, the way to try to maintain your overall profitability is actually to reduce selling price, thus increasing sales volume.

This can depend on the size of the fines and size of company. Large, wealthy companies like Apple are in a better position to absorb the cost which may make them more likely to continue to violate regulations as the consequences are not necessarily as great as with smaller companies.

Passing along the expense to consumers isn't always easy and can end up impacting the company's profits due to smaller margins and/or lower demand. It can depend on how price sensitive the particular markets are.

 

[webkit]

We don’t have 5 major Tech businesses lol so I can’t do that but regarding your point of Blackberry, when was Apple fined for iMessage being exclusive to Apple devices? I don’t recall.

Apple hasn't been fined yet but part of the EU's Digital Markets Act aims to open up competition and interoperability among devices including allowing alternative app stores, messaging, etc. As far as messaging goes, Apple would essentially be required to make iMessage available on Android and RCS available on iOS and Google/Android would be required to make iMessage available on Android and RCS available on iOS.

 

[0924487]

Your analysis is certainly that, 'an analysis' but why do we always have to be thinking that political plans are being hatched behind closed doors because some politicos are pissed off about something. Chances are that some citizens or a privacy rights group brought it to the attention of CNIL who were obligated to do something about it. Sometimes it can be THAT SIMPLE ! And it's a good rule because targeting me with ads in a phone that costs an average of €900 should not be acceptable. I don't want ads, full stop. There is NOTHING mandatory about ads on a phone, they're just another sales method of getting us to part with our hard earned cash and using a psychologically controversial method to do it - watching our internet behaviour. Why can't we stand up for ourselves as humans first, ones that don't want to be pandered to, manipulated, coerced into doing X or Y for consumerism.

Do you know why Boeing, Lockheed Martin and many other companies have an office or a factory in almost every US state? That’s less efficient than having everything in a few clusters. It’s because they can get political support from every state government and senators. It gives them lots of leverage. Pissing us off? There goes 50000 jobs in your state. Good luck getting re-elected.

The world is funded upon an interlinked web of interests and values.

 

[Wanted797]

I don't think French law works like that.

You either violated a law or you didn't. I don't think you will get fined just with statements you made, unless that statement broke a law.

I'm always presented with an option to share data with Apple when I setup a new iOS device, and I can turn it on/off later in iOS. Not sure which French law did Apple violate tho. You seem to know a lot about French law. Care to point out exactly which ones that Apple violated?

I understand that, and while I dislike that tactic, in the scheme of things how is it any different than anyone else’s ads? You didn’t answer my question of is everyone like Google and many many others getting similar fines that are just shrugged off?

They likely don’t make the news.

I found this that suggests Microsoft and Facebook has also been fined by this French agency.

Apple Fined 8 Million Euros for Privacy Violations in France

The French data privacy agency has fined Apple 8 million euros for an ad personalization tracker that violated the country's privacy laws. The fine against Apple

www.bankinfosecurity.com

 

[cthompson94]

They likely don’t make the news.

I found this that suggests Microsoft and Facebook has also been fined by this French agency.

Apple Fined 8 Million Euros for Privacy Violations in France

The French data privacy agency has fined Apple 8 million euros for an ad personalization tracker that violated the country's privacy laws. The fine against Apple

www.bankinfosecurity.com

Thank you for actually replying to me with a source, the person who kept replying to me before just wouldn't I suppose. I did read that link and yeah it looks like tech companies get slapped with much larger fines and that this 8 million euro fine is actually lower because it has already been corrected.

"The French data privacy agency has fined Apple 8 million euros for an ad personalization tracker that violated the country's privacy laws. The agency says the fine was lower, in part, because Apple has addressed the issue.

It looks like the investigation was initiated in 2021, hmm again thank you

 

[DeepIn2U]

Considering they successfully fined the company €8m, I assume they’ve a fairly strong case. France isn’t exactly a corrupt dictatorship that beats up business when it wants some extra money on no basis. It has to do this by the book especially when you take on a company that has the resources to also make your life a misery. There is country level power in having trillions in the bank.

Exactly, why does that not make sense to that poster. €8m is what Apple makes probably every few seconds - it's not at all an issue for Apple to pay. 10% of revenue, now that would put the fire under them.

Fining Apple 8 mil Euro's is simply an action believed to be true NOT a strong case per se. Apple can and I'm sure will appeal. Your stance is like guilty until proven innocent.

 

[DeepIn2U]

We don’t have 5 major Tech businesses lol so I can’t do that but regarding your point of Blackberry, when was Apple fined for iMessage being exclusive to Apple devices? I don’t recall.

So the EU does have MongoDB has international headquarters in Dublin, Ireland.
ARM Inc are they still headquartered in the UK? Oh wait they left the EU a few short months ago right?

what about:
Ericsson,
Nokia,
Amadeus IT Group,
Vodafone,
STMicroElectronics,
Infineon Technologies,
NXP SemiConductors,
Adyen NV,
Spotify,

I'm sure there is a LOT more. Curious ... how many more and how many of them been charged for similar cases as Apple? Hmmm.

 

[VoxzeyWoxzey]

I live in France and the French people and I work damn hard (I'm not French). They have a social conscience and most protests relate to protecting mass-movement won social demands or preventing further capitalist encroachment, something any of us should know pisses on the work to enrich the owing bosses - the people have a decently healthy attitude disobedience of power that they elect and protest is a form of power when you don't have much. That's a wonderful thing to see and I'm on those protests quite frequently. America is an absolute backwater for workers and social rights (quite literally one of the worst in the world) with people just supposed to accept the insane and deeply harmful ebbs and flow of capital speculation resulting in a job one day and nothing the next.

Your simplistic statements about 'asking the French to work results in protests' shows more your own ignorance of current economics and the fact that you suffer from your own country's anti-union, anti-protest propaganda. Unless you're a fabulously wealthy business owner, you should be behind those protests for those fighting for a right to a decent life.

Blizzard shut down operations in Versailles because the employees in one section were doing a poor job but the Union kept backing them.

So instead of a few dozen bad employees being let go, hundreds were fired.

So yeah…

 

[contacos]

So the EU does have MongoDB has international headquarters in Dublin, Ireland.
ARM Inc are they still headquartered in the UK? Oh wait they left the EU a few short months ago right?

what about:
Ericsson,
Nokia,
Amadeus IT Group,
Vodafone,
STMicroElectronics,
Infineon Technologies,
NXP SemiConductors,
Adyen NV,
Spotify,

I'm sure there is a LOT more. Curious ... how many more and how many of them been charged for similar cases as Apple? Hmmm.

Well, how could they be fined for something similar if they didn’t break the same law? Also, it’s actually never the country suing the company. It’s usually some random person, working / specialist in GDPR related topics suing in country XY and then obviously they look into it and make a decision. It was the same with the fine META just received. It was a guy suing

 

[Vlad Soare]

That's a much-quoted fallacy, both for fines and other types of enforcement. The reality is that Apple (or any other company) will already be selling their products at the highest cost the market will bear. If they could increase the price (e.g. to absorb a fine or an imposed increase in operating costs) without it negatively affecting demand, they would have done so already.

Nah. We keep hearing this, and yet their devices get increasingly more expensive, little by little, every year. So do their services, for that matter (my Apple Music family subscription fee has recently increased by 23% for no reason). This seems to indicate that their prices weren't at the highest bearable point yet.
Besides, they don't need a big increase to cover eight million euros. Considering how many devices they sell worldwide, a few cents added to each one would do the trick, and no one would even notice.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

Apple should move their HQ2 to EU to make them chill. Currently, EU sees that they don't benefit economically from Apple yet Apple makes a lot of money from EU.

They were doing that and then Brexshit happened thanks to Facebook and Cambridge Analytica.

 

[steve09090]

I agree, 30-50% of capital so Apple learns the lesson, or, better yet, just outright have an appointed bureaucrat take hold of the company on behalf of the nice, decent people of France.

So they basically steal the business away. That’s rubbish.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Now, I have read the article, and I am trying to figure out how

1: Showing you ads in the Apple App Store from information gathered from you (ether because you didn’t opt-in/opt-out in a setting) is a violation of privacy. I could understand having ads based on someone else’s info being shown to you or your info being used to show ads to someone else being a privacy issue.

2: Who gets the 8 million? Do the French people who got shown ads based on their own personal information get it, or does it go into some large pool of money someone will waste via red tape.

3: When will people learn that fines do not work: Fines do not work, because all the companies do is pass the expense off to the consumer. You wanna fix this issue, you court order all the upper and middle management to do community service projects (40-80 hours per person should do it). If that doesn’t work, you expand it to more people and/or time or prohibit that company from functioning in your area for a set amount of time (piss off share holders enough to vote changes)

Easily understood.

1: you can’t use someone’s private information for advertising without consent. No exception. It being first party information doesn’t make it any different from third party advertising.
2: the government gets it because the company broke the law for GDPR.

3: everyone knows this. But if fines gets too big it will increase the price of goods and it will kill the business.