Freescale Confirms Dual Core G4

[Analog Kid]

...compromisation...

Good word-- gotta make a note of it...

 

[daveL]

There are other issues that belong to the dual-core philosophy, as well, like cache coherency, threading, and other things that will have to be sorted out rather than left alone. These all stand in the way, but they might just be more solvable than the laws of physics.

SMP, which has been around in Sun, HP and IBM servers for years, has the same issues as dual-core designs, i.e. cache coherency and threading efficiency. Nothing new here; these issues do not present a challenge for dual-core processors.

 

[Flynnstone]

Unless the 970 magically starts performing better at lower clocks, the Freescale chip will slaughter it in the portable market. Let me reiterate that on-die memory control is part of what makes the Opteron so fast, and they'll have DDR2, along with numerous SoC enhancements that lower system latency. There will be no FSB to limit the G4 anymore, thanks to their being no northbridge, and the RapidIO framework is pretty nice..

The main problem I see with the G4 ( and it various flavours) is the lack of bus speed or the ratio of cpu clock to bus speed. This helped by increasing cache size, but has its limits. For Freescale to get in the game, I think they should follow AMD's lead and put the memory controller on board and have a Hypertransport external bus. If they did this, a similarly clock G4 would likely kick a IBM 970.
This bus problem will even be bigger with dual core, if Freescale stays with the same bus architecture. Time for an improvement.
One problem I see for Apple in this situation, is how to fit it in. How to deal with the situation where a single processor G4 out performs a dual G5 in a single threaded app. Where do you put it in the line up?
I think IBM should do the same and put the memory controller on die as well (970SP).

 

[iBunny]

I am in the market for a Powerbook... It will be my first mac. I am waiting until just before I deploy for Iraq to buy one.. I leave Jan 21st. Do you think, in your professional opinions that we even have any chance of seeing these before then.

Thanks

 

[wdlove]

I am in the market for a Powerbook... It will be my first mac. I am waiting until just before I deploy for Iraq to buy one.. I leave Jan 21st. Do you think, in your professional opinions that we even have any chance of seeing these before then.

Thanks

First of all, thank you very much for your service. I appreciated your willing to protect this great country.

It doesn't look like we will see an update until MWSF which in the first part of January. If so you probably wouldn't be able to acquire one prior to your deployment. Since it's yoru first Mac, you should purchase it soon. That way you will have time to feel comfortable with a Mac prior to leaving.

 

[thatwendigo]

The main problem I see with the G4 ( and it various flavours) is the lack of bus speed or the ratio of cpu clock to bus speed. This helped by increasing cache size, but has its limits. For Freescale to get in the game, I think they should follow AMD's lead and put the memory controller on board and have a Hypertransport external bus. If they did this, a similarly clock G4 would likely kick a IBM 970.

You haven't bothered to read anything about the new dual-core chip, have you?

The Freescale MPC8461D dual core will go over 1.5ghz in clock, have on-die controllers for DDR and DDR2 ram up to 667mhz, use the RapidIO and PCI-Express busses for peripherals, sport 4 hardware MACs on the chip, have 1 MB of cache per chip with sharing enabled between processors to prevent hitting the RAM as often, and a host of other enhancements. Oh, and it runs between 15 and 25 watts, which equals or is less than a single 90nm 1.6ghz 970.

This bus problem will even be bigger with dual core, if Freescale stays with the same bus architecture. Time for an improvement.

The MPC7448 is a discrete processor that's intended to replace the 7455 and 7447A, clocking at 1.8ghz with a 200mhz bus at a mere 10 watts. Meanwhile, Intel's dual-core desktop is just two Prescott cores slammed together without any improvement in heat. They're going to run at or above 200 watts unless something drastic is done, and they're limited to a single bus for both cores.

Meanwhile, AMD and Freescale are leaving Northbridges and FSBs behind. IBM might follow suit, or they might not. We don't know yet.

 

[Flynnstone]

You haven't bothered to read anything about the new dual-core chip, have you?

Actually, yes I have.

The Freescale MPC8461D dual core will go over ...

Are we going to see a 8461 in Apple equipment? Not likely. The 8461 is an embedded processor designed for the communication market. So the specs for the 8461 are interesting, but really only good for rumors.
So to continue with the rumors ... each "e600 core" looks very similar to a 7448. Freescale over the last number of years has been working on ... I forget the term they use, but a block based design methodology. I see the concept in the 683xx line and it even more obvious in the HCS12 microcontroller line. The 8461 uses the MPX bus internally (thankfully 3-4 times faster). So perhaps Apple can ask about licensing IBM's elastic processor interface bus???

The MPC7448 is a discrete processor that's intended to replace the 7455 and 7447A, clocking at 1.8ghz with a 200mhz bus at a mere 10 watts.

I think we can both agree that we will see the 7448 in Apple products.
It is essentially a speed bump. It still has the problem with the local MPX bus speed. They've alleviated the problem a bit by ratching up the cache size. Also its 10 watts at 1.4ghz (estimated).

 

[Flynnstone]

I'll add from the last post.
I think from Apple's perspective, if both IBM and Freescale made high end processors with built in memory controllers and HyperTransport interface bus, things would be good. Then Apple could concentrate on the system "glue" interface system.
If the cache coherency issues are not too big a problem and the trend for dual core processors, we could see quad (and more) PowerMacs!

I don't think AMD would mind either.

 

[thatwendigo]

Are we going to see a 8461 in Apple equipment? Not likely. The 8461 is an embedded processor designed for the communication market. So the specs for the 8461 are interesting, but really only good for rumors.

Motorola's entire PowerPC product line is made up of "embdedded processor designed for the communication market." Yes, even the G4 wasn't intended for Apple, but they used it anyway thanks to the fact that it was low power, low heat, and a reasonably good performer thanks to its efficiency.

Just go to Freescale's product page and you'll see that their entire selection menu is to do with embedded controllers, ASICs, and other such chips. Funny how their parent company, Motorola Semiconductors, was Apple's principle supplier for some fifteen years, then, isn't it?

There's just as much reason to think that Apple might use the 8461D as there is to believe that there's some magical low-power 970 coming from IBM, and even more reason to be excited about the former. My dad's a signal processing engineer that does a lot of work on PowerPC platforms, to the degree that he's even managed to make his employers let him use a mac as his development environment. When I relayed the 8461D's specs to him, he was immediately interested in the way that it does things that would greatly increase the efficiency of calculations and operations he does as a matter of daily course. The double 128-bit dual precision AltiVec units, 1MB-1MB of cache, on-die memory control, and on-board ECC cache are especially interesting in his line of work. Oh, and there's the simple fact that linear scaling would make a chip that's not any faster than the G4 (and how could it not be, without the bus bottleneck?) with low latency dual cores far faster than a 970 in many things.

So to continue with the rumors ... each "e600 core" looks very similar to a 7448.

Uh, no. You really do need to read up on this some more. The 7448 is an evolutionary bump of the old 74xx core, and the e600 is a revised variation that includes other enhancements. The 8461 will appear in single and dual core versions with the same features on each one, and that's where the e600 line truly starts to show its colors. The MPC7448 is a stop-gap until they roll out the newer design, and it's pin compatible with past architectures.

Freescale over the last number of years has been working on ... I forget the term they use, but a block based design methodology. I see the concept in the 683xx line and it even more obvious in the HCS12 microcontroller line. The 8461 uses the MPX bus internally (thankfully 3-4 times faster). So perhaps Apple can ask about licensing IBM's elastic processor interface bus???

The MPC8461 and the e500 cores are going to be SoC designs, not traditional discrete processors. I'd be interested to see a sourced on the internal MPX, though it doesn't sound like it's a big deal if there's a massive speedup (which I'd expect, with the other revisions). I might just be too tired to grasp what you're getting at here.

I think we can both agree that we will see the 7448 in Apple products.
It is essentially a speed bump. It still has the problem with the local MPX bus speed. They've alleviated the problem a bit by ratching up the cache size. Also its 10 watts at 1.4ghz (estimated).

The MPX bus has been increased in the 7448 (167mhz to 200mhz), the L2 cache has been increased (512kb to 1MB), the clockrate jumps (1.5ghz to 1.8ghz), and the 10 watts at 1.4ghz figure is widely tossed around but never really backed up. The actual quotation from Freescale's PDF release was that it was less than 10 at that point, contrary to what most people say.

 

[sillycybin]

Do you think there will be any chance that these new processors will be available for Powermac G4 upgrade cards? My aging PM DA could use a nice new upgrade with one of these dual core puppies in it.

 

[indigo144]

Why Apple is angry at IBM:

Perhaps the real source of Apple's displeasure with IBM is that after all the G5 Hyping ("Marketing") -- now the lowly G4 may be outperforming the PowerMac's.

Go FreeScale!

 

[macorama]

Do you think there will be any chance that these new processors will be available for Powermac G4 upgrade cards? My aging PM DA could use a nice new upgrade with one of these dual core puppies in it.

I don't see why not. If they're a possible option for Apple (whether or not they actually end up in an Apple product) then I'd assume the upgrade guys will be able to get them working. It might be just about the last product they make though, the upgrade market can't be looking for good after the Intel switch.

 

[pubwvj]

Cool. Maybe my next PowerBook. Just wish it fit in my Pismo. I will hate giving up the second harddrive/battery bay and the cool black plastic case that takes abuse so well and keeps on computing! Come-on Apple, bring back the tough black plastic cases. Enough with this shiny metal stuff.

 

[cloud 9]

i think the updating of the ibook/pb line depends also on...

1. is it needed for the consumer? an average consumer, checks his mail, surfs the web and do some light media stuff...there isn't much more needed then some 1.3 ghz for doing that in a 'decent' way for now...i think...

2. what is available, and how much can it be upgraded? i don't know that much of processors, but Apple tends to choose processors that can be updated 'regularly' and that have a 'potential' for some years, i think...
are they going to last or not??

does that makes any sense?

 

[steve jr.]

I don't get why Apple would put a processor in a pb that runs at 1.5GHz when the current G4 processor runs at 1.67GHz. Am I missing something here?

 

[macorama]

I don't get why Apple would put a processor in a pb that runs at 1.5GHz when the current G4 processor runs at 1.67GHz. Am I missing something here?

If they go for the dual core version, then it's obvious why. Otherwise, if it's much lower power then there could be good improvements in battery life, or the same battery life at higher performance, and possibly a thinner form factor. Or maybe they could go with dual cpus! (wishfull thinking there!) It'll still be a hard sell based just on the GHz though.

 

[GregA]

The low power FX is single core.

 

[cloud 9]

Laptop sales at 495,000 were the highest ever, despite a lack of iBook and PowerBook revisions during the quarter. PowerBooks were modestly updated in February, while current iBook models are almost 10 months old.

you see that proves my point...these laptops will do fine, because the average consumer doesn't need much more processing power...

the whining on this board about updates is so boring,
and know that only a fraction of a fraction of all people need more processing power...