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Originally posted by Freg3000
But it would be cool.

Actually, I love my powerbook, but I do have one complaint. It often gets very, very hot.

I want to know how much hotter or cooler a powerbook that runs on burning methanol can be.

I mean, if it burns the skin off my lap, I'll stick with batteries. On the other hand, if the waste product is a liquid and can be used to cool the processors, I'd think that would be a good way of adding a new technology in a way that makes the older tech work even better.
 
I have a couple of comments.
First. Those that say carrying a laptop full of methanol is hazardous. I'm not exactly sure what is in present batteries, but I sure wouldn't want to open one. Wasn't there a time when some underwent spontaneous combustion?
Second: How much energy does it take to produce the methanol in the first place, and what are the waste products? It's all very well saying the fuel cell itself produces very little waste, but if it takes huge amounts of energy to produce the methanol, this rather defeats the green credentials of the technology. Maybe there are some mac using chemical engineers who can enlighten me?
 
i'm just imagining some guy, sitting at a fuel pump with his laptop, wondering how to hook it up.

It really doesn't seem like a practical idea... even if you could buy "low cost cartridges" or whatnot. The biggest issue I have with my little sony clié PDA is that it uses regular AA batteries, with no recharge option. While that is handy when I'm on the run and the battery is low, it gets pretty expensive. Imagine working on your laptop somewhere and realising your tank is almost on E... can't just plug it into the wall and charge it up... and I doubt a fuelcell for a laptop would be a common item at a shop, like AA batteries.
 
Airlines do not have the authority to approve transport of methanol; that's a matter for the FAA (and probably Homeland Security). And while it is true that the fuel cell is more directly competing with the battery, if you look at the cost of a recharge, or the actual cost of the electricity, the fuel cells are not cost effective.

Cigarrette lighters, for instance, are not allowed on commercial airplanes right now.

Also, with regard to the heat issue, fuel cells are a hot technology, most technologies would be hotter than anything else in your laptop...
 
Originally posted by StuPid QPid
Second: How much energy does it take to produce the methanol in the first place, and what are the waste products? It's all very well saying the fuel cell itself produces very little waste, but if it takes huge amounts of energy to produce the methanol, this rather defeats the green credentials of the technology. Maybe there are some mac using chemical engineers who can enlighten me?

I think that is a very important point. Also, no one has mentioned what direct waste gas or whatever is produced by methanol fuel cells. Hydrogen fuel cells make water. But Methane would have to make some sort of carbon product, probably CO2, which would then be another source of greenhouse gases.
 
More on the heat issue

Alkaline Fuel Cells
100°C - 250°C
Molten Carbonate Fuel Cells
600°C - 700°C
Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cells
150°C - 220°C
Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cells
around 90°C (also requires additional cooling)
Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC)
650°C - 1000°C
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFC)
Similar to PEM, around 90°C (lower performance than others)

source:

<http://www.nfcrc.uci.edu/fcresources/FCexplained/FC_Types.htm>
 
People here seem surprisingly quick to bash a technology they understand almost nothing about.

I agree completely that for some users, having to use methanol (or whatever) canisters instead of a battery that charges automatically when your laptop is plugged in is far less than ideal. For example, if I'm working around the house and want to occasionally take my laptop outside for an hour, but certainly don't want to bother with replacing fuel canisters, a battery is ideal.

However, for the seasoned traveler who wants to be able to pack 20 or 30 hours of use in a briefcase without lugging around a heap of heavy batteries, replacable fuel canisters would be ideal.

It all depends. And it's not at all certain that these would run hot; it didn't say whether they're direct methanol fuel cells or they use a micro-reformer, but it would make a difference. (Oh, and by the way, PEM fuel cells can easily run much closer to the 50 degree C range--the ones I work with never go much over 60).

I poked around NEC's site but although the Japanese press release is up (http://www.nec.co.jp/press/ja/0306/3002.html), there's no English translation yet. I'll have to get my wife to read it for the details, but in my limited capacity it looks like the prototype is running at 40mW/cm2 of cell surface area, which is actually a very low power density (probably runs cooler that way). It claims 14W continuous, 24W peak output. It looks like the stack makes use of carbon nanotubes, which I seem to remember reading an article that said NEC was working on a year or so ago.

Production model in 2004, but knowing what I do about fuel cells, I'm a bit skeptical. They will probably be selling something, but I have a feeling it'll be targeted at the Japanese bleeding-edge market that most people won't touch. That means the first ones will be very expensive, and I have my doubts about long-term reliability (current fuel cells generally can manage 2000-4000 hours in semi-controlled environments, and I'd expect these to do much worse, but we'll see.)

Perhaps coincidentally, NEC also announced a piezoelectric-pumped laptop liquid cooling system today:
http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/0306/3001.html

And by the way, the 5 hour life is probably impressive if you're used to PC laptops.
 
Originally posted by matznentosh
I think that is a very important point. Also, no one has mentioned what direct waste gas or whatever is produced by methanol fuel cells. Hydrogen fuel cells make water. But Methane would have to make some sort of carbon product, probably CO2, which would then be another source of greenhouse gases.
The issues surrounding Methanol and it's environmental effects are very real--it's usually refined from natural gas at this point, meaning that it is a fossil fuel like any other, and of course it will produce CO2 when used in a fuel cell. (http://www.methanex.com/)

It does, however, burn relatively cleanly (especially in a fuel cell), and has some advantages over gasoline as a fuel. More importantly, if used with a fuel cell, it should be more efficient and clean burning than direct burning of the fuel.

In any case, though, as a replacement for gasoline and other petrolium fuels on a large scale, methanol would be a stopgap measure at best, and a CO2 polluter in green clothing at worst. Pure hydrogen, electrolyzed from water using renewable sources, is the only viable fuel cell-based option in the long term.

But as far as a laptop goes, the situation is entirely different--you're dealing with a very small amount of fuel (even if we're talking about the millions of laptops in the world put together), and a market where performance is as important as anything else.

Besides, look at the current alternative: burning oil, coal, or natural gas in a semi-efficient process (~50%), then piping the power through miles of power lines (line losses), then converting it to DC (not all that efficient), then charging a battery (not 100% efficient), then getting that power back out of the battery and using it. We're hardly talking about efficient conversion from fossil fuel to portable power here, when you look at the grand scheme of things.

I'd say methanol-fired laptops have a place, at least as a transition technology. Besides, it's not like the technology will park there permanantly, and laptops have a much shorter useful life than, say, a car or a power plant, so even if the technology is eventually replaced by something better the old ones won't be floating around all that long.
 
Heat issues, etc.

Glad to hear of the DOT ruling (DOT runs FAA, by the way).

Even at 50-60°C (122°F-140°F) they are on the border of the uncomfortable and burn temperatures, but within the realm of cooling. Also, if this unit only puts out 14W continuous, 24W peak, we're not going to see it powering a G5 laptop any time soon.

I still have my doubts about the cost efficiency, although I wouldn't be surprised if you could adapt one to run on vodka as well as just methanol!
 
Originally posted by Makosuke
The issues surrounding Methanol and it's environmental effects are very real--it's usually refined from natural gas at this point, meaning that it is a fossil fuel like any other, and of course it will produce CO2 when used in a fuel cell. (http://www.methanex.com/)

...

Besides, look at the current alternative: burning oil, coal, or natural gas in a semi-efficient process (~50%), then piping the power through miles of power lines (line losses), then converting it to DC (not all that efficient), then charging a battery (not 100% efficient), then getting that power back out of the battery and using it. We're hardly talking about efficient conversion from fossil fuel to portable power here, when you look at the grand scheme of things.

I'd say methanol-fired laptops have a place, at least as a transition technology. Besides, it's not like the technology will park there permanantly, and laptops have a much shorter useful life than, say, a car or a power plant, so even if the technology is eventually replaced by something better the old ones won't be floating around all that long.

The delivered price of electricity most places in the U.S. is $.11 per kilowatt-hour or less (California being the notable exception). A laptop rated at up to 45W like my iBook will consume .225 kilowatt-hours over 5 hours, running at full power (and recharging, I guess). This is about 2.5¢, which there is no way methanol cartridges can compete with.

If the laptop contains both a battery and a fuel cell (although now we're running into space issues...), the power source could be chosen depending on conditions, which might work.
 
Originally posted by StuPid QPid
Second: How much energy does it take to produce the methanol in the first place, and what are the waste products? It's all very well saying the fuel cell itself produces very little waste, but if it takes huge amounts of energy to produce the methanol, this rather defeats the green credentials of the technology. Maybe there are some mac using chemical engineers who can enlighten me?

As a mac-using chemical engineer (albeit one who has not practiced chem eng for several years :) ), I feel obliged to answer:

Methanol is cheap to produce, both economically and environmentally. In fact, it is the waste product of many common chemical processes, so you're kinda in the world where you get Methanol like it or not ... you might as well use it!
 
Originally posted by Makosuke
The issues surrounding Methanol and it's environmental effects are very real--it's usually refined from natural gas at this point, meaning that it is a fossil fuel like any other, and of course it will produce CO2 when used in a fuel cell. (http://www.methanex.com/)

Just wanted to note that as long as we are using natural gas in other ways, methanol is either a useful product or a waste product. In other words, when you refine a natural gas stream, you get various component output streams (the precise components and ratios are a product of the input stream). It's not like the world refines natural gases and throws away all the other streams besides Methanol. Methanol is one of the cheapest output components of a refinery because production outstrips usage.

So, you either use the waste product, or you ... well, waste it :)

Were methanol in higher demand, there are numerous non-fossil fuel, renewable sources which are only slightly more expensive than the waste stream of a refinery, most notably including vegetable refining (which is used to produce ethanol but likewise produces large quantities of methanol as well).

In other words, it would be patently silly for someone to be against the use of methanol in fuel cells for environmental reasons.
 
Originally posted by sonicsessions
i'm just imagining some guy, sitting at a fuel pump with his laptop, wondering how to hook it up.

It really doesn't seem like a practical idea... even if you could buy "low cost cartridges" or whatnot. The biggest issue I have with my little sony clié PDA is that it uses regular AA batteries, with no recharge option. While that is handy when I'm on the run and the battery is low, it gets pretty expensive. Imagine working on your laptop somewhere and realising your tank is almost on E... can't just plug it into the wall and charge it up... and I doubt a fuelcell for a laptop would be a common item at a shop, like AA batteries.

Depends on packaging. The simplest user-friendly packaging would allow you to buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol (methanol) and fill the ampule yourself ... This is available at any drug store throughout the country, and might even be available in airport drug stores (possibly not as methanol is flammable ...)
 
Originally posted by matznentosh
I think that is a very important point. Also, no one has mentioned what direct waste gas or whatever is produced by methanol fuel cells. Hydrogen fuel cells make water. But Methane would have to make some sort of carbon product, probably CO2, which would then be another source of greenhouse gases.

Water and CO2 would be emitted, yes. Note that your breathing would likely produce far more CO2 than your laptop fuel cell, however!
 
Originally posted by mcrain
Actually, I love my powerbook, but I do have one complaint. It often gets very, very hot.

I want to know how much hotter or cooler a powerbook that runs on burning methanol can be.

I mean, if it burns the skin off my lap, I'll stick with batteries. On the other hand, if the waste product is a liquid and can be used to cool the processors, I'd think that would be a good way of adding a new technology in a way that makes the older tech work even better.

Or the liquid (water) could run out of a vent in the bottom of the laptop down onto your legs to cool them off. It just may be more efficient, and it would be refreshing, too! :D ;)
 
Originally posted by r8ix
If the laptop contains both a battery and a fuel cell (although now we're running into space issues...), the power source could be chosen depending on conditions, which might work.

I wouldn't imagine this in first-gen products, but I would guess maybe within 2-3 revs you might be able to swap out the FC module for a LiIon module in most cases. At least, I'd exect this in the PC variants ... Apple hasn't been overly flexible on battery issues in my experience ...

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but that line-lump DC power supply is sipping AC power no matter if you are recharging your laptop or not, right? Seems I remember reading that most such transformers operate at about 80-90% peak consumption on no load ... The point being that your laptop power at present isn't quite as efficient as it sounds when you take into account that most people leave their recharging devices plugged in for significantly longer than it takes to recharge such devices (ie, leave the laptop plugged in overnight before the flight), and even leave the chargers plugged into the wall sans device after they leave far too often!
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
Apple hasn't been overly flexible on battery issues in my experience ...

Well, the WallStreet series were pretty good in that respect. You had a battery compartment and a second compartment which could take another battery, a CD-ROM drive, a floppy drive, a ZIP drive, or presumeably, a fuel cell unit (if they existed at the time...). Maybe they'll do something like that with future generations of Powerbooks.
 
Costs

as far as costs goes, the methanol itself would probably be nearly free. It's the packaging, shipping and handling, etc. that will drive up the cost of the cartridges and make them relatively expensive.
 
rolleyes.gif
The water coming from the fuel cells would be heated by the fuel cell itself, so the water would actually cause some burns...
eek.gif
 
Originally posted by r8ix


Cigarrette lighters, for instance, are not allowed on commercial airplanes right now.


Uhhh.... I've never flown without at least 2 lighters on me. As a matter of fact even over memorial day weekend when the terror alert was on Orange or Burnt Umber or Seneca or whatever they call it to scare people, they still let me on with the lighters.
 
Originally posted by MacViolinist
Uhhh.... I've never flown without at least 2 lighters on me. As a matter of fact even over memorial day weekend when the terror alert was on Orange or Burnt Umber or Seneca or whatever they call it to scare people, they still let me on with the lighters.

well, they're not supposed to. they're on the official list of banned substances...
 
Originally posted by r8ix
Well, the WallStreet series were pretty good in that respect. You had a battery compartment and a second compartment which could take another battery, a CD-ROM drive, a floppy drive, a ZIP drive, or presumeably, a fuel cell unit (if they existed at the time...). Maybe they'll do something like that with future generations of Powerbooks.


Yes, I was somewhat suprised when Apple came out with the laptops after the WallStreets that didn't have the drive and battery compartments. I liked being able to switch my CD-ROM and my Zip any time I needed to even without restarting.
 
Re: Re: Neat...but is it practical?

Originally posted by iJon
haha, no kidding. im excited about my trip to dallas soon. i cant till they ask me about my gun scope, i mean my isight.

iJon

...and they will check too. I'd be too afraid they'd confiscate it. ;)
 
Future cooling system?

Originally posted by projectParanoia
rolleyes.gif
The water coming from the fuel cells would be heated by the fuel cell itself, so the water would actually cause some burns...
eek.gif

Maybe Apple could use the water waste as a cooling system for the future G6? :D
 
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