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Fuel Cell Laptops

Wow, you guys sure are quick to dismiss a technology you have never even seen! I wonder what your thoughts would have been on the "Horseless carriage" (a.k.a. automobile) or those so-called "aero-planes", had you lived around the turn of the last century.

This reminds me of hearing/reading discussions by PC users writing-off Macs without even having attempted to use them or give them a chance.

I thought Mac users were supposed to be open minded; yet you all sound off on this subject like you are experts in the field of chemistry or alternative fuels. How about waiting until the technology is actually in use before judging it?

As for the claim that producing ethanol is harmful because it is derived from natural gas, etc., that is simply not true. Ethanol can be produced quite cheaply and efficiently by utilizing the starch found in corn. Here in Canada (I'm not sure about the US), depending on where you live, up to about 15% of the gasoline from the pump is refined ethanol which makes it burn significantly cleaner than straight gasoline. The production of ethanol is already a large industry, both here and in the US, and will only continue to grow in the future. This can only serve to drive the cost of ethanol down.
 
Originally posted by T.Rex
Wow, you guys sure are quick to dismiss a technology you have never even seen!
....
As for the claim that producing ethanol is harmful because it is derived from natural gas, etc., that is simply not true.
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I've seen a lot of Fuel Cells. There's a hotel near where I lived that had the longest continually running fuel cell in America -- over 7 years.

And by the way, we're talking methanol, not ethanol.
 
On topic: the temperatures being given are at the reaction site, not external surface temperatures, meaning that these laptops won't necessarily run really hot. There is current research in micro-reformers that react at over 100C, but are cool to the touch on the outside--you just need to build it right. And in fact, since these reactions generally prefer heat (unlike chips, which hate it), you might even be able to just insulate it and keep it warm inside without affecting nearby components (or your knees), and without needing to dump any heat.

Now for a highly off topic rant--sorry. Since it's popping up, I wanted to say something in regards to the environmental impacts of methanol (and similar hydrocarbons) as a fuel:

For laptops, its negligable, as well as the cost for someone with mobility in mind (I don't want to pay $0.10 an hour to use my computer at home, but on the road that sounds like a bargain). That should be pretty obvious.

As a large-scale source of energy, it's much more questionable. Being a byproduct of current refinery technologies, there's some of it around that you might as well use. And being easily refined and more easily used in a fuel cell than other fossil-based fuels, not to mention generally cleaner, it's a decent choice for a gasoline alternative.

But in the long term on a large scale, I'd be very skeptical (and I work at an alternative energy research lab, I'm not just spouting random opinions). If it's derived from a fossil fuel, you've got the same basic carbon output issues (and therefore greenhouse effect) as any other fossil fuel.

Although ethanol and similar things can be produced from corn, etc, it's not likely to be a magic cure on a large scale for a number of reasons. True, if you only look at corn-in-to-energy-out, the process is carbon neutral--the corn sucks as much CO2 in as the burnt fuel puts out. But to grow enough corn or other biofuel to supply a significant percentage of the current world's energy demand, you'd not only be running into major land-use issues, but modern farming methods rely heavily on fossil fuel input--both in terms of fertalizer and heavy energy use of farming equipment--and it's subsidized so you don't see the real cost. There are also soil and aquifer depletion issues in some areas. If you tried to derive all that from the crops you were growing and have it be sustainable in the long term, it would be very expensive and I think your actual energy output would be a rather small percentage of what your fields produced, and I'd be impressed if there was enough farmland in the world to keep up.

I'm not an expert in the area, and I'd be glad if I'm wrong, but this is the opinion I've heard from many who do realistic research in the field.
 
I'm wonder about this fuel cell thing because even though it can provide longer usage, when it runs out of power, you have to refuel it. That means you have to BUY fuel in order to use it. Whereas lithium battery can be simply recharged for FREE even though it does not last as long.

Am I wrong about this?
 
Here are some technologies being developed for laptop fuel cells. My source for most of this is various articles in EE Times.

A company called PolyFuel is working on using a 25% methanol 75% water fuel for its cells. It has approval for this fuel to go on U.S. airlines. It is in talks with Duracell to make cartridges that cost $2 to $3. They hope for 10 hour life.

A company called Neah is working on cells using a methanol and hydrogen peroxide mix.

One called Generics Group is working with hydrogen fuel that is already mixed with oxygen, resulting in a much smaller physical cell and a tenfold increase in power density. More traditional cells have to separate the two elements, which makes the cell physically much more complex. They can potentially "print" the battery electrodes on rolls and when the fuel mix flows through them you have a cell which can be very thin and flexibly shaped.

NEC is said to be working with carbon nanotubes in the form of "nanohorns" to form fuel cells. This article describes it. They claim potential for 10 times the energy density of the best current batteries. It uses a solid polymer electrolyte rather than fluids.
 
hmmm...

So, what you're saying is methanol = methane = FART GAS, right? Now, there's a reliable power source, and I got plenty of it. Apple sure am smart for going after this idear!:D
 
ps.

By the way, I am joking, and it might show that I know nothing about chemicals.
 
fuel cell/battery swap

Wouldn't it make sense for Apple to simply make a fuel cell that could be swapped out and replaced by a battery if needed?

I don't know anything about the size and shape of a fuel cell, but seems to me that to be viable for use in a laptop, it would need to be not much larger than a lithium battery (though perhaps larger than the G4's battery), so they might engineer the design to allow for swapping.

Then, in most cases, you'd use a battery, but if you needed long continuous operability, you could just pop in the fuel cell with fuel cartridge.
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
Depends on packaging. The simplest user-friendly packaging would allow you to buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol (methanol) and fill the ampule yourself ... This is available at any drug store throughout the country, and might even be available in airport drug stores (possibly not as methanol is flammable ...)
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Except rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, not methanol. I'm not sure airport drugstores carry it currently...
 
Originally posted by cooper13
Except rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, not methanol. I'm not sure airport drugstores carry it currently...
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Make it use Scotch whiskey. I know they sell those in the airports... duty-free even. :p

Seriously, why use methanol. Methanol is toxic. Its not even a renewal resource. Its made from natural gas, or coal. Its also eats aluminum, and rubber compounds.

Ethanol is a much better fuel source. Its a renewable energy source, that can be produced from corn, barley, grapes, potatoes, pretty much anything that has sugar in it that can be digested by yeast.

I'm sure that you wouldn't want to put whiskey, beer, wine, etc into your powerbook fuel cell as the impurities would clog up the insides of the 'fuel cell'.

The only bad thing I can see with using Ethanol is that you would need to be over 21 in order to use your computer. :p
 
Re: Future cooling system?

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
Maybe Apple could use the water waste as a cooling system for the future G6? :D
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Oh man! Is this is the first G6 rumor I've seen. Only a few more years of these and we can get onto the G7 rumors:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
...and even leave the chargers plugged into the wall sans device after they leave far too often!
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Is this a bad thing to do? My cellphone charger is always plugged in, phone or not, which I also charge far more often than is necessary. Along a similar line of thought, is the Firewire cable dangling from the back of my mac a bad thing, as it only occasionally has an iPod on the other end?

Thanks
 
Originally posted by cooper13
Except rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, not methanol. I'm not sure airport drugstores carry it currently...
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D'oh!

You're right ... :) Shows what a decade-old chemistry education can do ...

FWIW, rubbing alcohol would be C3H7OH instead of CH3OH ... two more carbons and a few more bound hydrogens in there ...
 
Originally posted by MacKenzie999
Is this a bad thing to do? My cellphone charger is always plugged in, phone or not, which I also charge far more often than is necessary. Along a similar line of thought, is the Firewire cable dangling from the back of my mac a bad thing, as it only occasionally has an iPod on the other end?

Thanks
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Well, first, the power adapter always plugged in does consume energy (although not as much as I was guessing at above ... not sure where I heard the 80-90% figure but actually looking it up I find more like 1-1.5% of full-load dissipation in most devices on no-load (ie, nothing plugged into it, just the transformer running keeping a constant voltage differential) ... just a slight difference there.

Quick ... feel the lump in your cellphone charger. While it may be "smart" and turn the transformer off when nothing is plugged into it, more likely than not it is not that smart (and this has more to do with regulations than with the technical feasibility of monitoring when something is plugged in ... wal-wart transformers are a separate device which can be UL certified separately of the device they are plugged into; two-way communication between the two would make this distinction less convincing). If the lump is hot, it is consuming power.

Leaving your firewire cord plugged in is a wholly different matter altogether. The FW cable itself does not consume power (at least, not when unconnected on one end). As such, having it plugged in is electrically similar to having an extension cord plugged into your wall outlet: you are not affecting power usage. Just make sure you don't spill coffee on the exposed end of the cord or something silly like that ...
 
Originally posted by Frohickey
Make it use Scotch whiskey. I know they sell those in the airports... duty-free even. :p

Seriously, why use methanol. Methanol is toxic. Its not even a renewal resource. Its made from natural gas, or coal. Its also eats aluminum, and rubber compounds.

Ethanol is a much better fuel source. Its a renewable energy source, that can be produced from corn, barley, grapes, potatoes, pretty much anything that has sugar in it that can be digested by yeast.
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Quite true. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/ethanolfuel/id30.html

For some reason which I don't know enough to explain ( :) ), most fuel cell implementations use methanol instead though ... 'course it could have something to do with a whole heck of a lot more research dollars coming out of oil companies than corn farmers ...


I'm sure that you wouldn't want to put whiskey, beer, wine, etc into your powerbook fuel cell as the impurities would clog up the insides of the 'fuel cell'.
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The sad thing is that this is the most likely reason why you won't see "self-fill" fuel cell canisters ... someone, eventually, would see that their triple-malt scotch has ethanol in it and try running their laptop with that, and sue Apple for not properly warning them ...
 
Originally posted by macphoria
I'm wonder about this fuel cell thing because even though it can provide longer usage, when it runs out of power, you have to refuel it. That means you have to BUY fuel in order to use it. Whereas lithium battery can be simply recharged for FREE even though it does not last as long.

Am I wrong about this?
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Somebody is paying for the electricity that you use to charge the lithium battery. It is most definitely not free. Even if it were a wind generator or solar panel providing the juice, the system still costs money. There is no such thing as free energy.
 
Originally posted by Ugg
Somebody is paying for the electricity that you use to charge the lithium battery. It is most definitely not free. Even if it were a wind generator or solar panel providing the juice, the system still costs money. There is no such thing as free energy.
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If Einstein is still right does this mean there is no free matter either:)
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
The sad thing is that this is the most likely reason why you won't see "self-fill" fuel cell canisters ... someone, eventually, would see that their triple-malt scotch has ethanol in it and try running their laptop with that, and sue Apple for not properly warning them ...
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damn lawyers!

First it was going after big tobacco when people who smoked to much died.
Next, it was going after fast food restaurants when people who ate too much got fat.
Next, its going after computer companies when people who use triple-malt scotch computed too much.

When is it going to end? :p
 
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