Fundametal flaw in FW less late 09 MacBook

[mosx]

Performance Measurement
-c't h2benchw 3.6
-PCMark05 V1.01

Synthetic benchmarks. Next!

PCMark is made by the same company that makes 3DMark, which is the laughing stock of benchmarks among anyone who knows anything about computer hardware

Of course its not raw file transfers, but bench marks are usually comparable to real use results.

Synthetic benchmarks are never indicative of real world performance. Never.

HDMI is a point-to-point connection, and current there is no data transfer ability between computers or drives (and if MPAA has its wish never will).

HDMI 1.4 supports 100Mbps ethernet among 4kx2k video (same as digital projectors in movie theaters) and 8 channel LPCM audio over 1 cable.

FW400 is able to handle the data stream for HD content, and provide control of multiple devices over a daisy chain of cables.

Only the compressed stream. Not the uncompressed stream.

Coaxial cable is also able to handle HD content, so what advantage does 10Gbit/s give when ~400Mbit/s (or Digital Co-ax) can do same?

FYI: Digital Co-ax cable:
38.4 Mbit/s, fully 1080i capable

Did you read your own link? Thats talking about one type of encoding using 1 6MHz band.

Coaxial cable's bandwidth is based upon binding channels together to carry higher bitrates. That bitrate, 38.4Mbps, isn't even enough to carry a single blu-ray stream. Cable generally recompresses HD channels to around 19Mbps. If coaxial cable was only capable of 38.4Mbps in its entirety, you'd have only 2 HD channels. Cable isn't IPTV, where channels are only streamed when requested. Digital/HD cable is always streaming all channels. I remember reading before that coaxial cable's maximum total bandwidth is around 10Gbps itself, but I'm having trouble finding that. It makes sense though, considering that most cable companies these days are streaming 30+ HD channels at around 19Mbps, as well as around 150 SD channels, plus HD on demand. Plus Charter, the cable company here, is offering 60/2 internet service. So coaxial cable's bandwidth is well above that erroneously stated amount you posted.

I think I know what you are getting at.
Windows Vista and XP SP2 had BUGS that crippled FW performance.
Those are fixed now.

So you can point out rumored bugs in Windows but not proven bugs with Mac OS X?

And as I told you before, I did simple file transfer comparison via *built in* FW on my PC to same HDD. USB2 vs FW400, and FW400 beat it in every test

What PC? What drivers? What drives? What kind of files?

Canon XH A1 ($3999) High Definition Camcorder uses 1394
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...elTechSpecsAct

So does the $8999
XL H1S
DV Terminal HDV/DV Special 6-pin connector (IEEE1394 compatible); both input/output

You found two cameras out of hundreds. Good for you.

Don't get off what YOU said: I do NOT want anything draining my battery. In that case, fast and SMALL USB 2 drives are perfect.

Any 2.5" external HDD will use the exact same amount of power no matter if you connect via USB2, FW, or eSATA. USB2 does not magically make the HDD use no power.

You, or someone else I'm too lazy to look, mentioned hooking up a large 3.5" standard HDD to transfer files to over Firewire while portable. Don't misinterpret what I said.

As for a USB2 Flash drive, you can also get a FW Flash drive, look very similar to USB, and yes, both of those use about the same power.

Which is pointless because Firewire is dead.

You never researched your statements, and your logic is simply wrong.

This means nothing coming from a person who thinks cable only has a bandwidth of 38.4Mbps

Please MOSX, it´s obvious you don´t use your Mac to make money in a creative way. For us who does, FW is very often a must have.
I can edit HD footage of a portable FW800 disk on location, I can´t do that with a USB drive. Simple as that.
Often find myself transferring 100GB and more at the end of a long day, try to compare USB with FW800 speed then.
USB is slow and bad, it´s all I have to say
Oh, and don´t get my started on the benefits over a SD card slot over Express card slot…..

HD footage on your Mac? It's definitely not blu-ray quality Since OS X is incapable of playing back that high quality of video. Can't call it HD when its not even close to the highest quality out there.

Apple should be including both a multi-card reader and an ExpressCard slot. My PC that cost $500 less than my Mac has both.

If they have a direct HDMI output, then well they do. But so few laptops do anyways.

Outside of netbooks, HDMI has been standard on notebooks for nearly 3 years now. My 2007 model PC has HDMI with 8 channel LPCM support. I've been using that system to stream audio and video to my home theater system over one cable for the better portion of the last two years. Its HDCP certified and everything.

 

[yoak]

It plays ProRes and that is as close to uncompressed as you get. This is the quality you use BEFORE you down convert to Blu-Ray.
And making a Blu-Ray file is a one click option in the new Final Cut.
I agree Blu-Ray palyback is almost non existent, and a mayor flaw from Apple not to include it, but when I make DVDs or Blu-Rays most of the time I would take the files to a post-house ad have them to do it for me

 

[PracticalMac]

MOSX, I have been able to back up with links to Mfg's and information websites to prove most of what I said.

You have not done that once, and your answers seem to dismiss anything and everything others say that does not fit your world.

Your last post also suggest you are a big PC user, and IIRC said never used FireWire, yet claim to know about FW performance as if tested it yourself.

Since I can't convince you of anything, at least other readers can learn the facts.

Synthetic benchmarks. Next!
PCMark is made by the same company that makes 3DMark, which is the laughing stock of benchmarks among anyone who knows anything about computer hardware
Synthetic benchmarks are never indicative of real world performance. Never.

Benchmarks assess the relative performance of different systems, providing a somewhat consistent and stable result
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchmark_(computing)

As long as the same version is used across all the hardware, you will have a raw comparison.

Of course using Test suite (as you suggest) has its own merits and limits.


Before you say you did not say anything about a Test suite, "real life" type of file transfer test is whats called a Test suite benchmark

HDMI 1.4 supports 100Mbps ethernet among 4kx2k video (same as digital projectors in movie theaters) and 8 channel LPCM audio over 1 cable.
Only the compressed stream. Not the uncompressed stream.
Did you read your own link? Thats talking about one type of encoding using 1 6MHz band.

Coaxial cable's bandwidth is based upon binding channels together to carry higher bitrates. That bitrate, 38.4Mbps, isn't even enough to carry a single blu-ray stream. Cable generally recompresses HD channels to around 19Mbps. If coaxial cable was only capable of 38.4Mbps in its entirety, you'd have only 2 HD channels. Cable isn't IPTV, where channels are only streamed when requested. Digital/HD cable is always streaming all channels. I remember reading before that coaxial cable's maximum total bandwidth is around 10Gbps itself, but I'm having trouble finding that. It makes sense though, considering that most cable companies these days are streaming 30+ HD channels at around 19Mbps, as well as around 150 SD channels, plus HD on demand. Plus Charter, the cable company here, is offering 60/2 internet service. So coaxial cable's bandwidth is well above that erroneously stated amount you posted.

Finally some hints of supporting data.
Point us to sources.

However if the end result is the same, what does it matter?

So you can point out rumored bugs in Windows but not proven bugs with Mac OS X?

Straight from Microsoft.
Performance of 1394 devices may decrease after you install Windows XP Service Pack 2
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222

I leave it up to you to show the OS X bug.

What PC? What drivers? What drives? What kind of files?

Shuttle XPC, WinXP SP1 (then), Combo FW/USB2 drive, random files in various folders, but the SAME batch of folders both times.
I do not have the paper I scribbled the results on anymore, but the conclusion was that FW is faster.

But you will dismiss that anyway.

I challenge YOU and ANYONE to purchase a multi port (USB2/FW800/eSATA) external HDD and test it themselves (Note: get an 400-800 cable to test FW400 speeds).
As long as you have a broad variety of tests and document it in detail, its valid.

You, or someone else I'm too lazy to look, mentioned hooking up a large 3.5" standard HDD to transfer files to over Firewire while portable. Don't misinterpret what I said.

you said:
If I'm mobile and away from a plug, I do NOT want anything draining my battery. In that case, fast and SMALL USB 2 drives are perfect.
-and-
Duh. USB 2.0 provides very little power. Perfect for small 2.5" portable HDDs for quick file transfers. I don't want to hook up a full sizd 3.5" drive and have it kill my battery.
-and just now-
I'm too lazy to look

The list of Fallacies in your statements:
1. Power consumption is by the device, not the source. A laptop will still use the same amount of power (called Watt's) from a 220v or a 110v source.
2. While FW can bus power a 3.5" external HDD (USB2 cannot), it is an OPTION.
3. Who is forcing you to use a 3.5" external HDD?
4. USB3 (the NEW USB version) can provide MORE power to devices, including just enough for 3.5" external HDD, but by your logic you will never use it becuase it drain your battery.
5. And the bottom line is you said you do not want anything draining your battery, and USB devices to just that (SanDisk USB2 flash drive use <150mA during read/write, or 0.75watts (its easy to learn how much volts USB2 provides).
http://www.altec-cs.com/media/produkte/usb-sticks/ufd/SanDisk_UFD-Micro_1.8.pdf

Which is pointless because Firewire is dead.

You found two cameras out of hundreds. Good for you.

Those 2 are of 8 new Canon's top of line Camcorders.
They do not use HDMI.

All becuase they disappeared from the cheap consumer camcorders does not herald the end of FW.

This means nothing coming from a person who thinks cable only has a bandwidth of 38.4Mbps

HD footage on your Mac? It's definitely not blu-ray quality Since OS X is incapable of playing back that high quality of video. Can't call it HD when its not even close to the highest quality out there.

Outside of netbooks, HDMI has been standard on notebooks for nearly 3 years now. My 2007 model PC has HDMI with 8 channel LPCM support. I've been using that system to stream audio and video to my home theater system over one cable for the better portion of the last two years. Its HDCP certified and everything.

So, um, do you even have a Mac?
(for record: PowerBook 520c, 550c, G3 Pismo, MBP 2.3, as well as few home built PC's)

Apple should be including both a multi-card reader and an ExpressCard slot. My PC that cost $500 less than my Mac has both.

I completely agree with this.
OH, it needs HDMI too.

(irony)
But... Wait, Apples is taking OUT "useless" ports. Maybe Apple thinks HDMI and ExpressCard is useless too?
(/irony)

 

[MacModMachine]

If they have a direct HDMI output, then well they do. But so few laptops do anyways.

all laptops have audio through hdmi, except the very early ones.

thats the point of hdmi , it combines the two.

 

[Langonoddy]

marry me mosx

OK I must confess something here. I've never bought a new Apple. I have 2 crt iMacs, (total spend $80) an ATI graphics eMac ($200) a clamshell iBook SE ($170) and the G4 mac mini ($400) (real money (Australian bucks)) bought over a period of years. When purchased, they all came with differing original & legit software. So Im pretty well set up with software for Tiger, which they all run. The mini is connected to the TV PVR (DVR, hard drive tv recorder thingy) via ethernet. The saved programs are stored on an external fW/USB hard driver and I convert them via mpeg streamslip. Now the fw is dead (due to a faulty brand new cable bought from a warehouse Australians generally know to avoid) the process is a slower. The ibook is my daily driver for most things. And like all the other Macs I have but the mac mini, its usb 1. (no I aint gonna put in the .1 though pedants may complain) And fw saves the day. A decent external fw case costs peanuts on ebay, including fan. In all my years using macs, Ive never had a machine up and die.

Thanks to mosx for pointing out that macs can be made to usb boot. As a result I got carbon copy cloner, cloned my mac minis drive to an external hard drive, am still fiddling trying to get it to boot - following the instructions. But hey, handy. didnt know.

Im never going to buy a dos box. Im waiting for intel mac minis on ebay to drop in price, and maybe Ill get one around July.

The current macbook - well maybe in 2013 Ill pass it up when its on ebay cause IT AINT GOT FIREWIRE.

Every Mac Ive owned since I diced my beige powermac in 2004 ($100 in 2000) (it was the one with av in and had a PC card in it) has had fw.

Horses for courses. Until something comes along that allows Target disc mode, etc etc I aint interested in a computer without fw . and seeing as I use OSX and aint interested in hackintoshes, that means macs. And to my mind, Mac = FW as standard kit. And to my mind, not withstanding what Ive learnt here about intel macs (which might cope without TDM etc ) I think its dumb of Apple to drop it from the Macbook.

And though I can see mosx is a person who is very passionate, and who has been a help to me (I have a cloned copy of my mac mini now) (half way to booting it from usb) I think maybe mosx is a basically annoyed that Apple wont release a platform independent version of OSX. Well, OK.

Now Apple hardware might be more expensive, but if one can live with an older machine and find it fills all one's needs, from my viewpoint, so what.

If someone wants me to make a computer based museum display on Maralinga in a hurry, I just line up my macs, divide the tasks and hey presto, segments of a quicktime movie all processed in parallel and then joined up and its done. So yea, mosx, Im as eccentric as you. Let's go and get drunk and then Ill race you to convert Amazing Race on a PVR to an edited quicktime movie sans ads ready to burn to DVD. Not having FW on my mini anymore Ill be slower than normal storing the disc image on completion, But really, even if you win it doesnt prove you enjoy your machine and system as much as I do and Firewire is part of that experience.

I miss it on my mac mini and could throttle the maker of that cable. It was a long one, and I discovered that at the half way point, the cables were spliced, and a power cable was joined to a data cable. So I feel like a guy who has to adapt to no firewire. Except that the eMac suddenly has been block and tackled onto the kitchen table. Noone's going to nick it. Its only usb 1 after all. And FW is a bit of secret among non mac users. Apple is making a mistake by dropping it. (hours vs minutes on transfering data usb 1.1 vs FW)

Finally, Microsoft owns 50% of Apple. So dont go blaming Apple for everything. There is convergence, and one aspect of that might be the downgrading of Apple stuff to comply with Microsoft standards.

I diced Windows last century. "Its the software stupid". - Gates to Jobs.

Yea, and if the software is integrated with dedicated hardware, you get a better outcome. Even if the hardware seems nothing special on its own.
It aint, after all, going to work without software now is it?

But OK Mosx, youre an interesting intense person. Lets go and have a drink.

Can you put tiger on the Eee PC my wife gave me one Christmas ago? Neat little thing if theres a network handy. Maybe Apple could come out with a budget line, Orange, or Mango maybe. Pomegranet. Grapefruit. Paw Paw. little things without firewire for about $400. (Coke's budget line is Kirk, so maybe Apple's could be A-pal)

None of the objections listed re Macs in this thread has put me off. FW is important to me. An OSX mac without FW is a downward convergence toward the 50% shareholder in Apple. OK many mac users here dont use it. Fine. But a Macbook SE with fw shouldnt be out of the question for those who do use it. Lots of muso's are professional. ie dont get paid for their
talent.

Benchmarks? huh? I have what I have. Im happy with em. I may as well race my mac mini against itself. Itll win everytime. Ralph Nader used stats. Most people can't drive.
First one of my macs to die gets buried with my old pooches.

Ever tried loading Vista onto a year 2000 dos box? Ever tried loading Tiger onto an year 2000 iBook or iMac? Piece of cake.

See, old coots on superannuation have slightly different priorities. In order to keep using my macs, I have to keep eating. So second hand is the go.

Funny thing Mosx, and you probably know the answer. Though I havent yet successfully booted the mac mini from usb, I have the iBook SE. Its usb 1.1 and I guess that has something to do with it. But its firewire works fine, so it was merely academic.

And imo, argue away mosx, I love intensity, its interesting and shows passion, the way things are going, Apple and Microsoft with soon become the British Leyland of the computer world. You remember, dont you, when Vanden Plas was a great make. And then, after BMC/British Leyland, one of the last Vanden Plas models was merely a Morris Mini with a whoopy do grille and V P badging. And it was bought by snobs. In the end the world bought Toyotas or Subarus.

For those in the know, the best Porsche ever built was the 1966 Corvair Monza. Chevvy can do it, and so can Apple.

And waiting in the wings are companies like ASUS, who with their version of Linux, if they play their cards right, and keep developing it (despite pressure from Microsoft) will trump the US IT globo corp.

Vegemite rules. If Apple keeps on deleting stock features, Ill just go Asus Linux for workhorse stuff. OpenOffice isnt so bad. In desktop mode the little critter is pretty neat. Watch out West, China's coming at yer. Feature laden and cheap. Time for Apple to pull a Porsche out of its hat at Corvair prices. It can be done. What's firewire cost at the corporate level per unit built? Five cents? Bet it does another Bullwinkle ("Whoops, wrong hat"). They build Apples in China but with olde worlde Van dan Plas ideology. Someone at Apple needs a good grilling.

But none of this means those who bought the MacBook without Firewire arent perfectly content and happy.

If I had the justification for a new Mac, well, and the resources for a Macbook, I'd stretch it a little and get the Pro cause I'm adjusted to firewire. I like it.

And that may be part of the cunning plot. Want firewire? Get the Pro. Or a Mac Mini. Hack that with a Solid state drive and battery pack, bolt a monitor and keyboard to it and Bob's your Uncle.

Im done. Hope you got some laughs but this is serious too.

 

[Chappers]

Synthetic benchmarks. Next!

PCMark is made by the same company that makes 3DMark, which is the laughing stock of benchmarks among anyone who knows anything about computer hardware



Synthetic benchmarks are never indicative of real world performance. Never.


Outside of netbooks, HDMI has been standard on notebooks for nearly 3 years now. My 2007 model PC has HDMI with 8 channel LPCM support. I've been using that system to stream audio and video to my home theater system over one cable for the better portion of the last two years. Its HDCP certified and everything.

Of course you've never been known to quote synthetic bench marks -

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2302499,00.asp I like this one in particular

It's funny that only a few months ago you were quoting synthetic bench marks.

As for HDMI being standard - what do you mean - standard? All of them have it or just an average number. My two PC laptops don't have it and they are both much less that 3 years old.