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Future of iTunes Norway, Sweden, Denmark?
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Seriously who cares about NO, DK and SE?
Ok, so this is one thing people don't really talk about, but to be completely honest, why don't we just be honest here.
Loosing Denmark, or Norway or both, doesn't matter one bit. It is a courtesy that Apple even allowed these small and meaningless countries to join in on the fun.
Point is, that loosing Denmark or Norway, or both, doesn't play any roles here... They are no market for Apple. We have Denmark, who is 98% PeeCee users and are still allergic to change and everything Apple. So, with a population of roughly 5 million, and most people use, PCs, and their aggressive TDC (Local Telephone company/Internet Company) downloadable music campaigns came out a month or two before Apple was allowed into the country. Conveniently they got a head start, no one talks about how TDC was blocking Apple from getting in.
Now, Apple users have just recently started to grow in Denmark, and if I say that the total Mac User community in Denmark is 25.000 people, then I am being optimistic at best. Out of that 25.000 a good 10.000 to 15.000 users don't have a modern mac, or don't even have broadband and don't surf the web like others, or rather, they are not part of the iLife community that has spawned an entire culture, thanks to Apple.
Then we have a few the 10.000 or so who actually have a current mac and do use all the tools and apps in the iLife community. But not all download music, so if we say that 5000 people actually buy music from iTunes, then is a minor miracle. A song on iTunes costs you $1.37 and then you actually need an iPod too, so let's throw that into the equation too. How many currently active iLife / iPod users are there really? Not a heck of alot. The iPod is not cheap in Denmark and songs are not cheap either.
People might have tried to buy a few songs from iTunes, but don't count on people actually building their library up with songs purchased with music from iTunes.
So, in the grand scheme of things, loosing 5-10.000 customers (being optimistic here and I am not even saying they are reoccurring users) for Apple doesn't mean a thing. New York has more inhabitant than Denmark...Ohh I don't know, say, 4 times more?
NEW YORK (Population 19,227,088)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108252.html
DENMARK (Population 5,450,661 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html
NORWAY (Population 4,610,820 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107851.html
SWEDEN (Population 9,016,596 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108008.html
New York makes up these three countries and no, not the entire State buys iTunes, but then neither do, these three countries...
So, the entire US, Canada, Asia, Australia and parts of Europe.. Do, you really think, Denmark makes an impression? Or Sweden and Norway for that matter?
Honestly, they are full of them selves, and they are MS friendly, always have been and always will be... That is their way... It won't change, creativity doesn't live these places.
The fact that these small countries yell so loudly has to be because they don't have anything better to do with their time and money.
So, for those who really think, Apple should give in, to these spoiled nations... Think again... Apple would benefit from leaving these countries, and let them enjoy whatever they want to enjoy.
TV shows, in those countries? Well I can only speak for Denmark, as I am stationed here... With their perverted Laws... That won't ever happen... Something called CODA and License, are the real pirates of those countries.
These countries simply didn't deserve to have Apple even thinking about giving them a piece of the fun...
Ok, so this is one thing people don't really talk about, but to be completely honest, why don't we just be honest here.
Loosing Denmark, or Norway or both, doesn't matter one bit. It is a courtesy that Apple even allowed these small and meaningless countries to join in on the fun.
Point is, that loosing Denmark or Norway, or both, doesn't play any roles here... They are no market for Apple. We have Denmark, who is 98% PeeCee users and are still allergic to change and everything Apple. So, with a population of roughly 5 million, and most people use, PCs, and their aggressive TDC (Local Telephone company/Internet Company) downloadable music campaigns came out a month or two before Apple was allowed into the country. Conveniently they got a head start, no one talks about how TDC was blocking Apple from getting in.
Now, Apple users have just recently started to grow in Denmark, and if I say that the total Mac User community in Denmark is 25.000 people, then I am being optimistic at best. Out of that 25.000 a good 10.000 to 15.000 users don't have a modern mac, or don't even have broadband and don't surf the web like others, or rather, they are not part of the iLife community that has spawned an entire culture, thanks to Apple.
Then we have a few the 10.000 or so who actually have a current mac and do use all the tools and apps in the iLife community. But not all download music, so if we say that 5000 people actually buy music from iTunes, then is a minor miracle. A song on iTunes costs you $1.37 and then you actually need an iPod too, so let's throw that into the equation too. How many currently active iLife / iPod users are there really? Not a heck of alot. The iPod is not cheap in Denmark and songs are not cheap either.
People might have tried to buy a few songs from iTunes, but don't count on people actually building their library up with songs purchased with music from iTunes.
So, in the grand scheme of things, loosing 5-10.000 customers (being optimistic here and I am not even saying they are reoccurring users) for Apple doesn't mean a thing. New York has more inhabitant than Denmark...Ohh I don't know, say, 4 times more?
NEW YORK (Population 19,227,088)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108252.html
DENMARK (Population 5,450,661 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html
NORWAY (Population 4,610,820 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107851.html
SWEDEN (Population 9,016,596 -the entire country-)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108008.html
New York makes up these three countries and no, not the entire State buys iTunes, but then neither do, these three countries...
So, the entire US, Canada, Asia, Australia and parts of Europe.. Do, you really think, Denmark makes an impression? Or Sweden and Norway for that matter?
Honestly, they are full of them selves, and they are MS friendly, always have been and always will be... That is their way... It won't change, creativity doesn't live these places.
The fact that these small countries yell so loudly has to be because they don't have anything better to do with their time and money.
So, for those who really think, Apple should give in, to these spoiled nations... Think again... Apple would benefit from leaving these countries, and let them enjoy whatever they want to enjoy.
TV shows, in those countries? Well I can only speak for Denmark, as I am stationed here... With their perverted Laws... That won't ever happen... Something called CODA and License, are the real pirates of those countries.
These countries simply didn't deserve to have Apple even thinking about giving them a piece of the fun...
You are all ignorant stupid consumers !
Norway is doing you all a favor. Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.
Act now stop that ********.
One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.
Norway is doing you all a favor. Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.
Act now stop that ********.
One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.
I like how the Norwegians are saying that the music purchased from the iTMS can only be plaid on an iPod. Um, am I missing something, or what about the millions and millions of computerts around the world that can play iTMS content just fine? That seems to me like that would qualify for more than one type of device that can play the content.
Timepass said:
I have always thought Apple would eventually open up it's DRM of their own free will. At this time, there is no serious competitor to the iPod/iTunes combo. Should serious competition arise, perhaps sometime Zune, the iPods inability to play music from other sources will be a competitive disadvantage.
However, as a philosophical issue, I have a problem with any government interfering like this in a free market! Sometimes such interference is necessary to prevent harm to the public, but I don't see where this is the case with the iPod. It doesn't cause injury to the user, ( if you heed the volume warnings ), and there are alternatives. Those who don't like iPod/iTunes locking them in to one player are fully free to use the alternatives!
I was just flabbergasted by the statement that we scandinavians are supposed to be the happiest people in the world. If my memory serves me correct we also have the highest suicidal rates in the world too... and THAT is before we stood to lose iTMSStella said:
Honestly Denmark, Norway and Sweden...
If you don't like it, then get out... Leave it, don't touch it and shut up!
No one is forcing you to buy it, so stop whining... You are not making any sense, you are just acting like desperate little people wanting to bash Apple cause that is the PC way to do things...
Most PC users with an iPod in Scandinavia only rip music and that is all...
So, let me explain it to you, since you don't seem to get it...
IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT... Here it comes... DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!
Stop acting so money hungry... Yeah, Norway wanting to give Apple a fine for their format... Wow... that's rich!
So, if a tiny country (Norway) with a few people wanting money, all they have to do is make a new law that is formulated so that they can "according to their law" say that international companies are violating their laws... Inventive, but very greedy...
There are other ways of getting noticed you know... Like doing something that actually benefits the world... (Max Von Sydow, doesn't count, he was Swedish)
If you don't like it, then get out... Leave it, don't touch it and shut up!
No one is forcing you to buy it, so stop whining... You are not making any sense, you are just acting like desperate little people wanting to bash Apple cause that is the PC way to do things...
Most PC users with an iPod in Scandinavia only rip music and that is all...
So, let me explain it to you, since you don't seem to get it...
IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT... Here it comes... DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!
Stop acting so money hungry... Yeah, Norway wanting to give Apple a fine for their format... Wow... that's rich!
So, if a tiny country (Norway) with a few people wanting money, all they have to do is make a new law that is formulated so that they can "according to their law" say that international companies are violating their laws... Inventive, but very greedy...
There are other ways of getting noticed you know... Like doing something that actually benefits the world... (Max Von Sydow, doesn't count, he was Swedish)
Dr.Gargoyle said:I was just flabbergasted by the statement that we scandinavians are supposed to be the happiest people in the world. If my memory serves me correct we also have the highest suicidal rates in the world too... and THAT is before we stood to lose iTMS
See he gets it!!!!
He is one of the few people who (if he lives in Scandinavia, needs to be granted amnesty, and sent to a happier place!) actually understands how it is there...
He is telling the truth, but I didn't want to bring up the suicidal rates in those countries and how the youth is just rotting away... But hey, now that he did...
I am sure they don't spend their money on iPods or iTunes, but rather crack and weed... After all their lives suck... so...
OOOOkkkeeyyyy...Lyra said:
First of all, I do live in Sweden. (born and bred). Secondly, my comment shouldn't be taken too seriously.
I don't know where are from, but my guess is that you never been close to scandinavia. If you had done some traveling you would know that all countries have to live with their own moronic politicians for better or worse.
Dr.Gargoyle said:
Hmmm, hvad skal det betyde? Før du siger noget skulle du tænke dig om, ik?
I am stationed in Denmark, and have been since Bush became President...
I do know what it means to be in Scandinavia and yes, I deal with your politicians quite a bit... So, don't get me started.
Lyra said:
I live in The Netherlands, and I don't have any TV shows either, so it's not only in Denmark, etc. which you can't get them. And as far as I can you can only get them in the US (maybe there are other countries where they are awailable, but there aren't many).
The issue is that ITMS needs to get distribution rights in each and every country where they want to distribute anything, which can be a pain, and for europe the networks might not be interested in making a TV Show available via ITMS before it have been air'ed as they then will loose ad money.
It is not just a simple matter...
As for DRM, one of the reasons for this is going on is that when you download something from ITMS it will only play in either iTunes or on a iPod which is locking the user to a single device.
We where all laughing when the EU fined MS - issue is that Apple is not much better in this case....
I'm a Mac head, but I do not like the DRM Apple is forcing me to live with....
Casper
casperghst42 said:
I see what you mean and I agree to some extend...
But no disrespect when I say, you really are not forced to live with the DRM... No one is, and that is the main point here...
If people really are that bothered by it, then all they need to do is to stop using the Apple iPod and iTunes.
I for one, really don't feel affected by this, not even a little bit...
And you are right, it is only the American version of the iTunes that offer TV shows... At the moment...
xlight said:
I don't FEEL ignorant and stupid. Maybe that's because I took the time to READ and UNDERSTAND the limitations imposed on me by iTunes/iPod before I BOUGHT in. And maybe because I understand that what I am BUYING is a DIGITAL DATA FILE that must be interpreted by a certain APPLICATION to become music, and that this was EXPLAINED to me before I BOUGHT. That I don't OWN the MUSIC, and that there are LIMITATIONS to what I can do with it. ( And if you think I'm wrong on that last point, let a copyright holder catch you using their music for commmercial gain. Write back to us and describe the world of hurt that descends on you)!
The fact of the matter is that reasonable DRM's protect the artists who are the source of the music. And Apples DRM is one the most reasonable in the industry, both protecting the artist, and allowing fair use by the customer.
Every lock the same?
While I'm no great fan of DRM, this makes about as much sense as making all home, car and office locks use the same key. And making files DRM'd under one system transferable to a different DRM (what France was attempting) simply means that no DRM will be stronger than the weakest.
Like it are not, if we want to buy legit music, we've got to have a fairly effective DRM or those who own music have no incentive to release it. Would any of us leave a brand-new MacBook Pro unattended on a park bench while we went into a store? Well, these people have far more invested in their music than we have in our computers.
In short, we shouldn't demand of others different standards than those we live by ourselves.
While I'm no great fan of DRM, this makes about as much sense as making all home, car and office locks use the same key. And making files DRM'd under one system transferable to a different DRM (what France was attempting) simply means that no DRM will be stronger than the weakest.
Like it are not, if we want to buy legit music, we've got to have a fairly effective DRM or those who own music have no incentive to release it. Would any of us leave a brand-new MacBook Pro unattended on a park bench while we went into a store? Well, these people have far more invested in their music than we have in our computers.
In short, we shouldn't demand of others different standards than those we live by ourselves.
]dsnort said:
It is a fine line. But really apple is flirting with needing the goverment to step in. Goverment waits to long to do anything and the damage is permant and compition is hurt for years to come. A good example is M$ got nailed for it but that didnt change the fact that it made the software the domante force on the market and they didnt have to give up the market share they took.
a completely free market is bad plan and simple. So is the other direction of the goverment controling everything. it has to be a balance bettween the 2. I am of the opinan that it is getting to the point in just DRM that it is getting close to the time where the goverment needs to step in and help clean up some of the mess before it gets out of hand and all they can do at most is damage control. Right now there is still time to prevent the damanage from happening. Apple got there market share power and now they are getting near to virtual monoploly standing in both the mp3 player market and online music store. Once you cross those lines and become a virtual monoploly in a market the rules change. No longer is using the power in one market to effect the other legal. (so Apple cannt use iTMS to effect ipod sales and ipod to effect iTMS sales as it does now.)
I also like to point out as people say pull out of those country you have to rememeber that they are just the first countries to pass these laws and THEY WILL NOT BE THE LAST. So should apple pull out of every country that pass those laws. Some how I think that is stupid idea. I expect in the next few years to see all of the EU have laws forcing open DRM and now you are talking about a large enough market that it really will effect the bottom line. And at some point the US is going to pass laws forcing open DRM. Now think about it. Apple can burn there bridges now or releliez this is where the market is heading weather they like it or not. Now either move now and deal or pay the price in permate damage down the road.
P
pgw3
Guest
dsnort said:
The problem is that the license says that the limitations can change at any time, so one doesn't really know what one buys, even if one has read the license - which I'm sure most people has not. I don't believe that the complaint is first and foremost about the DRM (which one may have opinions about exactly how it is implemented and shared but most anyway recognises it as a necessary evil) but rather what is summarised in these two sentences: "it is unreasonable that the agreement the consumer must give consent to is regulated by English law. That iTunes disclaims all liability for possible damage the software may cause and that it may alter the rights to the music". I think most of us agree that it is not reasonable that that which we buy can destroy anything on our computer and that they can e.g. suddenly just allow me to play a song just five times. And even though we all trust and like Apple these sort of licences are getting sillier and sillier (and it is certainlly not just Apple, it is basically the whole industry) and I think it is really good that someone who has the time and knowledge to fight it takes a stand against it, even though I believe shutting down the store may be overkill but I'm sure it won't come to that.
Cheers,
Peter
pgw3 said:
I understand what you are saying, and empathize with your concern. I just find it bewildering that the focus of so much of this debate is Apples DRM, which is one of the most reasonable out there. This is not a case, so far, of Apple abusing the customer so much as it is of Apple having so many customers. For real DRM abuse stories, check out what Sony did on some of the DVD's they sold. Or Napsters subscription service where you have rights to the music as long as you keep making the payments, every month. Or try to decipher M$'s DRM policy. Or try to sign up for Sony's Connect Store on a Mac.
I personally don't think it will ever come to the point where Apple will pull iTunes from any country, at least, I certainly hope not.
As for the post you quoted, sorry. People who insist that everyone who doesn't agree with them is mentally defective touch a hot button for me. Especially when their reasoning is.....suspect.
iTunes Norway is boring
I spent 15 minutes registering for an account only to find out that The Daily Show is off limits for Norwegian buyers. I then tried to buy a DVD - only to discover that the DVD is US zone only. The Apple DVD player will not play it without a zone switch. And max is 4 times per OS install.
The only way I can get The Daily Show is:
1 - $$$ porn package from cable company
2 - YouTube
3 - Piracy
I'm not 12 years old.. I don't have the time to pirate anything. So the only TDS for me is on YouTube. Quail hunting with the VP !!
iTunes+DRM == Avis. You don't own ****. So... in Norway... DRM ! It's a crime !!
Also.. The default M4A bit rate used by iTunes is a joke. You have to be 80 years old not to notice the huge difference between a CD and a standard iTunes M4A track.
I spent 15 minutes registering for an account only to find out that The Daily Show is off limits for Norwegian buyers. I then tried to buy a DVD - only to discover that the DVD is US zone only. The Apple DVD player will not play it without a zone switch. And max is 4 times per OS install.
The only way I can get The Daily Show is:
1 - $$$ porn package from cable company
2 - YouTube
3 - Piracy
I'm not 12 years old.. I don't have the time to pirate anything. So the only TDS for me is on YouTube. Quail hunting with the VP !!
iTunes+DRM == Avis. You don't own ****. So... in Norway... DRM ! It's a crime !!
Also.. The default M4A bit rate used by iTunes is a joke. You have to be 80 years old not to notice the huge difference between a CD and a standard iTunes M4A track.
Why no, swe and dk is important.
1) Oslo the capital of norway is the city where the ipod/people ratio is highest in the WORLD.
2) They are stuffed with cash.
3) They are the most advansed tech people in the world, "everybody" has a computer and DSL. And many even know how to use them
4) They have been trendsetters on the intnernett for the past 3-6 years.
That is why Norway Sweden and Denmark has iTS
1) Oslo the capital of norway is the city where the ipod/people ratio is highest in the WORLD.
2) They are stuffed with cash.
3) They are the most advansed tech people in the world, "everybody" has a computer and DSL. And many even know how to use them
4) They have been trendsetters on the intnernett for the past 3-6 years.
That is why Norway Sweden and Denmark has iTS
Lyra, your tone is condescending. Calling Scandinavian laws "perverted" tells us that you're single minded to begin with and that your points can't be taken seriously.
I'll still address the point you make about the size of the Scandinavian market. The total population of the Scandinavian countries are 18.9 million. The total population of the USA is 296 million. The size of the Scandinavian market is only 6.4% of the size of the US market, but if Apple pulls out it's still lost income, potentially up to a couple of percent of what Apple makes in the US if you count loss of sales of music and the domino effect that will cause loss of sales of iPods and Macs.
Of course Apple can survive without the Scandinavian market, but why give up potential profit for nothing except stubbornness?
I'll still address the point you make about the size of the Scandinavian market. The total population of the Scandinavian countries are 18.9 million. The total population of the USA is 296 million. The size of the Scandinavian market is only 6.4% of the size of the US market, but if Apple pulls out it's still lost income, potentially up to a couple of percent of what Apple makes in the US if you count loss of sales of music and the domino effect that will cause loss of sales of iPods and Macs.
Of course Apple can survive without the Scandinavian market, but why give up potential profit for nothing except stubbornness?
PPC970FX said:1) Oslo the capital of norway is the city where the ipod/people ratio is highest in the WORLD.
2) They are stuffed with cash.
3) They are the most advansed tech people in the world, "everybody" has a computer and DSL. And many even know how to use them
4) They have been trendsetters on the intnernett for the past 3-6 years.
That is why Norway Sweden and Denmark has iTS
You are kidding right?
