Future of iTunes Norway, Sweden, Denmark?

[Lyra]

Lyra, your tone is condescending. Calling Scandinavian laws "perverted" tells us that you're single minded to begin with and that your points can't be taken seriously.

I'll still address the point you make about the size of the Scandinavian market. The total population of the Scandinavian countries are 18.9 million. The total population of the USA is 296 million. The size of the Scandinavian market is only 6.4% of the size of the US market, but if Apple pulls out it's still lost income, potentially up to a couple of percent of what Apple makes in the US if you count loss of sales of music and the domino effect that will cause loss of sales of iPods and Macs.

Of course Apple can survive without the Scandinavian market, but why give up potential profit for nothing except stubbornness?

It is in your right to feel the word "PERVERTED" is condescending, however you seem to be missing the point. And furthermore, when your country gives Apple a bad rep, just cause you have a law that benefits your greedy idea of harming international companies and getting some money out of them, in this certain case, it happens to be Apple. Were you this engaged to do something when MS broke the law? The international law?

The fact of the matter is that Scandinavia simply isn't worth this...

You call it stubbornness when you talk about opening the DRM, which shows you, to be completely delusional when it comest to understanding this matter.

As one of the posters here mentioned, it would be like unifying the keys to everything you own and hoping no one breaks in, or steals anything from you.

Do you think ALL those companies would have joined iTunes, if Apple didn't have a good and pretty solid security to present them with? Ultimately it is all about making sure that the items you buy from them are safe and has a copy protection that insures the record labels that they can trust this format.

So who are you to go up against a phenomenon like iTunes, and these major companies? Do you honestly believe that Apple is the only one who is pushing DRM?

Try to do something productive instead and fight FOR and not against Apple... If you want iTunes, you have to adjust your selves to their format. It is idiotic to think that because I don't agree with certain companies and how they make their products, I can actually make a difference. Scandinavia doesn't have an impact on anything, you won't be able to change anything.

It is like someone disagreeing that the off button on SONY TVs remote is on the right side and not the left... If you can adjust and live with all the things other companies do, then why can't you with Apple? No one is forcing you to use iTunes... Better yet, if you don't like it buy the SONY, knock off of the iPods...

People whining about this simply don't see what is behind all of this. It is like moaning about DVD regional Codes, or copy protection on DVDs in general. Why don't you write to Panasonic or Pioneer and tell them, that you don't like and would fine them for not allowing you to switch regional codes on your DVD burner/player.

You can tolerate other companies, yet you cannot understand why iTunes HAS to work this way.

Your post indicates you have an issue with the size of your country. It indicates a certain insecurity, when you actually want to make justify your views on how many people live in Scandinavia and how many there are in New York alone. We are not talking about the 296 million in the entire USA. Canada is excluded in those numbers.

Why are you people so ungrateful? Why can't you just enjoy what Apple is giving you? Would you rather pirate songs?

Your laws ARE perverted (meaning they are not fair and serve only greed).
Just like our laws are perverted in many of our states, yours in your tiny country has a worse effect. After all, you still don't matter in the grand scheme of things...
And sooner or later, Apple will leave you, then you won't be able to buy anything from iTunes...

Is that what you want? Then why don't you just vote on it? If it matters so much to you?

Don't be so naive and think you have any influence over this... You are not just going up against Apple, but the entire band of companies who are backing Apple in this. Try do go up against them... It is as I said, you cannot change the power on/off buttons placement on the remote-control... Or any other silly thing people have a problem with...

Apart from the conclusion... what do you think is just "kidding"?

Oh I don't know, just about everything? It is this insecurity thing again isn't it?

The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things. Get it?

10 people loved the new Godzilla movie (People loved this movie and this might be the next best thing to sliced bread)

1.000.000 people hated the new Godzilla movie (People hated this movie and is considered to be a major flop)

 

[donbluto]

The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things.

So a ratio isn't necessarily a ratio, then? It depends on the population size?

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Oh I don't know, just about everything? It is this insecurity thing again isn't it?

Insecurity...? The only thing I'm insecure about at the moment is whether you are for real or just trolling...

The fewer the people in a nation, the easier it is to say they are the best or the worst in certain things. Get it?

Who says we're best at anything. It's not a contest...

Up here in the Nordic countries we're a small, fairly uniform, very rich, well-educated (to a degree - pun intended), technological advanced population. The marked might be small, but it's still a nice little marked.

Do you honestly see Apple pull out of a similar marked, let say New Your city, just because an unresolved quarrel with the local government...?

 

[Lyra]

So a ratio isn't necessarily a ratio, then? It depends on the population size?

You are aiming at being impossible right now...

A ratio doesn't always mean what people want it to mean... Simple as that...

It is all about how you twist and turn the results...

People talk, about how many voted for Bush and actually like him, or how many people hate Bush and wish he wasn't president... Which do you think dominates the US networks?

Shall we talk about statistics now?

Cause I would hate to go off topic...

Let us just stick to the main subject here.

Explain to me why you people feel threatened, harmed or hurt by the DRM?

How does it affect you?

What would you like if it wasn't there?

And what kind of reality would suit you best?

Make a case here so we can understand why you are so hung up on this crusade...

 

[Lyra]

Insecurity...? The only thing I'm insecure about at the moment is whether you are for real or just trolling...

Who says we're best at anything. It's not a contest...

Up here in the Nordic countries we're a small, fairly uniform, very rich, well-educated (to a degree - pun intended), technological advanced population. The marked might be small, but it's still a nice little marked.

Do you honestly see Apple pull out of a similar marked, let say New Your city, just because an unresolved quarrel with the local government...?

You New York is New York, part of the USA.

Saying that you are small, rich and well educated... And then you even say, you are technologically advanced?

Have you been to Singapore, Kuwait, Japan? I can name a few more places, but let's keep the list short.

You are not very technologically advanced you know... Well, again, compared to Africa you are...

Look, it seems, you are not seeing the overall picture, only what you see in front of you... And in this case it is Apple... But that is not all there is...

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Let us just stick to the main subject here.

Explain to me why you people feel threatened, harmed or hurt by the DRM?

Remember, even if the press is very hung up on DRM, that is not the only principle in queation in the initial complaint. Most important, IMO, is Apple reserving the right to change the terms of the sale after the sale. And that is not only illegal, but very bad business practice... for the consumer, that is...

I don't give a toss about DRM on downloadable media in general. Of course if it actually bothered me I wouldn't even have bought the 8 songs I have from iTMS, but it doesn't. I actually think Fairplay is pretty fair...

One thing I don't like so called copy-protected CDs because they can hurt your equipment (car stereos, slot loading PCs, etc) by getting stuck, and you don't get an option to buy real CDs of the "copy-protected" albums, but that's for another thread...

 

[donbluto]

I don't feel threatened or harmed, this is not a crusade for me. I would much rather have the consumer council go after Microsoft, don't get me wrong. The point is that the ongoing case against Apple is viewed as a benchmark test for this law, and if the consumer council wins it is expected that they will grab several other international companies by the nuts. Go figure.

Where I think you go wrong is the effects (or lack thereof) you think this will have on iTMS worldwide. There is in fact a potential domino effect here, even though we hardly even count in the big picture. And we don't, I realize that. But what if countries that count a wee bit more than we do follow up on this if Apple lose?

 

[gekko513]

I'm sorry, I can't contain myself. *laughs*

Lyra ranted something about: Greedy perverted laws... greedy idea of harming international companies and getting some money out of them, in this certain case, it happens to be Apple...

Do you even know what this case is about? None of the complaints are about getting money from Apple or any other company. All the complaints are about protecting the consumers' rights and making sure that companies don't take advantage of consumers by including obscure terms that can come back and render the purchase the consumer made worthless to him/her some time down the road.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

You New York is New York, part of the USA.

That's why I said local government... you have that in the US, too, you know...

Saying that you are small, rich and well educated... And then you even say, you are technologically advanced?

Have you been to Singapore, Kuwait, Japan? I can name a few more places, but let's keep the list short.

No I haven't been to any of those places. But what has that to do with anything...?

Again, this is not a contest, and I didn't even say we were the most technological advanced population in the world, nor the richest.

Just that we as population in general are rich and technologically advanced. Or don't you agree with that?

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Loosing Denmark, or Norway or both, doesn't matter one bit. It is a courtesy that Apple even allowed these small and meaningless countries to join in on the fun.

Since you claim you work in Denmark, you should know Denmark, as well as Sweden, is a part of European Union (EU). If you had done your homework, you should also know that EU implies that all non-nation specific laws should be idential for all countries in EU (very much the same as in US). That is, if the French and the scandinavians find that Apples DRM violates consumer rights, it has a very good chance to become accepted all over EU. Furthermore, since EU has about 460 million people whereas US only have 296 milion people, it should according to your argumentation about minor markets imply that Apple rather should dump the US market than the european market.
You should know by now that a company sole purpose is to make money for the shareholders, and nothing else. I very much doubt that board of Apple or its partners even would consider dumping a close to half a billion potential customers.

 

[dsnort]

Does anyone know what became of the constitutional challenge to the french iTunes law? I had read somewhere that the opposition party was trying to get the law overturned, haven't seen anything more about it since.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Apple Gets French Support in Music Compatibility Case

By THOMAS CRAMPTON
Published: July 29, 2006

PARIS, July 28 — The French constitutional council, the country’s highest judicial body, has declared major aspects of the so-called iPod law unconstitutional, undermining some controversial aspects of the legislation.

“ Apple’s lawyers might want to drink a glass of French Champagne today, but not a whole bottle,” said Dominique Menard, partner at the Lovells law firm and a specialist in intellectual property. “The constitutional council has highlighted fundamental protections for intellectual property in such a way as to put iTunes a little further from risk of the French law.”

Released late Thursday, the council’s 12-page legal finding made frequent reference to the 1789 Declaration on Human Rights and concluded that the law violated the constitutional protections of property.

The decision affects Apple’s market-dominant iTunes Music Store by undermining the government’s original intention, which was to force Apple and others to sell music online that would be playable on any device. Apple’s iPod is the only portable music device that can play music purchased on iTunes, which lead rivals to complain about anti-competitive practices.

Although the ruling could still require companies like Apple to make music sold online to be compatible with other hand-held devices, it said that the companies could not be forced to do so without receiving compensation. The council also eliminated reduced fines for file sharing.

“The constitutional council effectively highlighted the importance of intellectual property rights,” Mr. Menard said, emphasizing that Apple and other companies must be paid for sharing their copy-protection technology.

The law, which had been approved by the French Senate and National Assembly last month, was brought for review at the demand of more than 100 members of the National Assembly. The council’s review of whether the law fits within the French Constitution’s framework is one of the final steps before a law is promulgated. It now could take effect as altered by the council or the government could bring it once more before the Parliament.

The French minister of culture, Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, advocated enforced interoperability as a way to ensure diverse cultural offerings on the Internet by limiting technical constraints on digital works.

While the constitutional council highlighted the need for compensation, it was not such good news for Apple and other companies that the principle of forced interoperability remained in place, said Jean-Baptiste Soufron, legal director of the Association of Audionautes, a group opposed to copy restrictions.

“It is good news for Apple because they receive monetary compensation, but much bigger bad news if it forces them to license iTunes,” he said.

Link (requires login)

 

[Hattig]

Despite what a couple of posters here seem to be saying, it is good that some countries have a mechanism for protecting consumers from bad situations.

In terms of Apple's DRM however, I think you'll find that each type of DRM is a platform. Much like CDs, cassettes, and so on. I can't play vinyl in my CD player, however I can make a recording of the output, much as I can burn a CD from iTunes of iTMS purchased music.

Also it is not restricted to iPods. You can play it on every Apple Mac and Windows based PC using the freely available software from Apple. You can even play them on a couple of Motorola phones. This will weaken this part of the case against Apple. Apple can say they've taken reasonable measures to ensure that purchased media is available to the purchaser. They'll also state that there is no "No DRM" option available, this is mandated by the music companies. Also they'll state that they're not selling the music under false pretences, and people aren't forced to buy music from their store.

However I hope that the terms and conditions of use are made more consumer friendly. There are laws about terms and conditions when they apply to consumers in the EU - basically they have to be easily understood - i.e., plain english (french, german, etc), and have no unreasonable clauses, and the ability to alter the terms and conditions is an unreasonable clause.

In the past Apple has used that clause to reduce the number of playlist recordings down from 7 to 5 - I don't remember if this happened before iTMS was available outside the US however.

 

[TeppefallGuy]

Calm down people

Why all this hostility against Scandinavia ? In Norway we pay 25 percent VAT on music and iPods and expect them to work well with other products.

The Powerbook I am typing this on had a faulty harddrive and crashed after 16 months of use. Apple Norway fixed it for free. Did I have AppleCare ? No, Norwegian law dictates that a consumer electronic product should have no technical problems in the first two years with a maximum of five.

A maxed out 17" MacBook Pro will set you back US $4,304 in Norway. Now you understand why we are kinda picky ?

A nice flat in Oslo/Trondheim costs about the same as in the better parts of San Francisco (Pine Street/Pacific Heights). It is not New York prices.. but we are getting there

 

[Yvan256]

To use on other devices requires you to have to go through a lot of unnecessary and time consuming hoops.

DRM should be unified - one DRM standard for ALL devices.

While I agree with that (unified DRM), no jumps are required to use the songs on a Windows or OS X computer nor an audio CD player.

 

[Yvan256]

The default M4A bit rate used by iTunes is a joke. You have to be 80 years old not to notice the huge difference between a CD and a standard iTunes M4A track.

I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.

 

[TeppefallGuy]

I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.

128 M4A (on my system) cuts the top and bottom out and leaves the middle range intact. Maybe it´s my Sennheiser setup or something but 128 actively alters electronic music, rap and nu metal/rapcore. If you only listen to iTunes you´re in for a shock if you go to a concert.

I think M4A was designed for pop pop pop music

 

[Timepass]

I'm sorry but most people (I'd say 99.9%) can't hear the difference between a CD and a 128kbps AAC file.

Heck, we got people still using 128kbps MP3 for crying out loud. If they heard any difference (or if it really sounded like crap) we'd see them using 256kbps MP3 instead. Granted, the encoder makes a huge difference, but most files you see on P2P networks are 128kbps.

Well I wouldnt say that. the biggest limiting factor is going to come down to speaker system behind it. High quility speakers it going to be noticible but on lower end stuff you cannt really tell.

 

[Highland]

Norway is doing you all a favor. Do not act as stupid ass consumers with no brain. It is your right when you by music to listen to i where ever you want it too.
You payed for it didn't you so now it is yours ....
DRM is ******** and it takes away your rights as a consumers.

Act now stop that ********.

One more thing. At least we have the freedom and our goverment tries too help.

VERY WELL SAID.

A couple of points people always seem to miss.

#1 -- This is not solely about iTunes. It isn't an attack on Apple... it's FOR ALL online music stores.
#2 -- "Just buy CDs" DOES NOT cut it. They won't be around for much longer.

Stop being such asses and realise that proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing for consumers and society. I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use.

Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame. We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time.

 

[Highland]

In terms of Apple's DRM however, I think you'll find that each type of DRM is a platform. Much like CDs, cassettes, and so on. I can't play vinyl in my CD player, however I can make a recording of the output, much as I can burn a CD from iTunes of iTMS purchased music.

There's two important things here though... what you can do, and what you can do legally. Plus, any "red book" CD can be played on any CD player. And anyone who wants can make a CD. That's not the case with Fairplay (the iTunes DRM), or pretty much any DRM on the market right now.

And Lyra... OMG. You don't seem to have any grasp of the situation and are pretty keen on making some very insulting remarks. To suggest Apple (or any other online store) drop a region just because they can't be bullied into changing their local laws to suit a large multinational company is completely insane. You're loco.

And just so everyone knows, I'm not from the US or the EU. I'm not taking sides, and I'm not getting involved in the "my country is worth more to iTMS than yours".

As others have mentioned, these things have a tendency to act as test cases. Once one country sorts this out, others will follow.

 

[TeppefallGuy]

Super duper fresh news from TV2 Norway 18:38 local time

1 - Apple will change EULA.
2 - Apple will not allow iTunes music on other players.
3 - Norwegian government person "iTunes music should work on my cellphone".
4 - There is going to be a meeting later this week.

Apple is referred to as "the computer giant Apple". The same label is used when talking about Microsoft/HP/IBM/etc.

-TeppefallGuy Newsroom-

 

[TeppefallGuy]

An online norwegian version of the story is now available

Apple´s response is linked as a PDF. Norwegian text and partially censored with a big black marker.

http://www.nettavisen.no/it/article699846.ece

Nettavisen
"We will not give up, we believe that this is an important consumer question and that the product lock-in they (Apple) have is unreasonable. The Ombudsman believes that locking music to a certain brand of player - is a problem that affects many people. Most people have cell phones that can take many songs, but all the music I have bought from iTunes I can´t listen to via my cell phone, she says."

(direct translation and no cleanup so it´s a bit rough)

-- TeppefallGuy Newsroom --

 

[zac4mac]

Lyra - mellow out, we(the USA) have enough people out there P.O.d at us as it is. Like Mel Gibson just said, "It's about existing in harmony in a world that seems to have gone mad."

I'm not fond of DRM, but I see it as a necessary evil for the time being. I buy from iTMSm not for music quality, but for convenience. If I really need quality, I buy the CD and rip. Someday I'm going to archive all my Vinyl - somewhere around 600+ albums, from the 60s-80s; a daunting task I keep procrastinating.

iTMS is not a closed system - music plays, as said on iPods, PCs, Macs, and not mentioned, several Motorola phones. Not as many options as "Plays for Sure", but not as isolated as portayed.

I hope for the folks in France and Scandinavia that they don't force Apple to abandon them. I don't see Apple caving on this issue.

Z

 

[dsnort]

Stop being such asses and realise that proprietary DRM on music, video, pictures or digital books is a really, really, ridiculously stupid thing for consumers and society. I'd rather have no DRM, but if we have to, let's make it something that everyone can use.

Also... this isn't being driven entirely by Apple. The content owners are as much, if not more to blame. We all need to start speaking up about this or we're going to REALLY regret it in a few year's time.

That's just wrong on so many levels. I wish I had more time...

 

[gaseby]

The letter to Norwegian government

hi,
I have had a chance to browse through the reply (allthough parts of it was cencored):
- License agreement. Apple distinguish between license agreement for iTunes Jukebox and iTunes Music Store and they mean the government have been mixin this up
- License agreement. They will do som smaller adjustments (clarifications) around the issue of changes to the license agreement would have effect on previously purchased music, the intention was not to have any effect on previously purchased music
- License agreement. They will do changes so it will be clearer to the user when the license agreement has been changed
- DRM, usage of iTunes music files in other players than iPod. They do not give in on this, their argument is 1) it is playable on the PC 2) it may be burned on a CD and played on other CD players. They also blend into the argument that Norway has a fairly new law with respect to music download and copy/usage rights and the different plotical parties and politicians have said "this and that" which may support Apples case. I would assume that sooner or later there will be a court case in order to put more details on the law and its interpretation. This may be it (or not).

With respect to this having impact on other countries there are some arguments in the letter which quotes EU/EØS laws, however their DRM arguments is mainly reflecting their interpretation of Norwegian law.