Future Shop Experience

[CanadaRAM]

Well, you are obviously coming from a particular point of view, and from a set of circumstances that you didn't disclose the detail of in the first posts. I will not address the RAM pricing because you didn't tell about that till post #21.

You feel the salesman was concealing the fact of an option (that FutureShop did not have in stock to sell) -- without knowing yourself whether that option was pertinent to the use that the customer would have put the machine to.

So the salesman either
1) Was selling the appropriate system to the customer based on their requirements, in which case the 256 card option was about as relevant as a MacPro's CPU options would have been to the conversation
-or-
2) Was Ignorant of the fact that if the customer needed a higher video card it could be special ordered and then either
. a) still acted appropriately for the customers stated requirements
. -or-
. b) through ignorance didn't offer an option that would have been in the best interests of the customer, because they had stated a requirement for video rendering or games.
-or-
3) Was instructed that the only machines he could sell were the ones in stock, and then either
. a) acted appropriately for the customers stated requirements
. -or-
. b) conciously concealed an option that would have been in the best interests of the customer, because they had stated a requirement for video rendering or games.

So in scenario 1), 2a) and 3a), IMO you were out of line and #&^$ed up both the sale AND the customers' buying experience. Good work.

In scenario 2b) you were the well-meaning but poorly handled intervener

In scenario 3b) you are the white knight who saved the customers from an inappropriate purchase. Yay.

 

[kixsand]

In scenario 3b) you are the white knight who saved the customers from an inappropriate purchase. Yay.

Well...if you had been there and seen the look on the couple's faces as they were thanking me for the information you might be leaning towards scenario 3b). I know that's how I was feeling until I got into this debate with you.

Cheers,

darren

 

[emaja]

I respectfully disagree.

Knowledge is never a bad thing. If the sales consultant had been doing his job properly he could have easily dealt with my presence..."We already talked about your needs and determined that this computer has more than enough power to accomodate your usage requirements."

That is how I would have handled it and yes he could have done that too, but it ends up that you took advantage of your experience and flustered a salesperson. Not cool. Not everyone at a consumer electronics store has your years of experience and knows how to deal with someone who interrupts them.

Instead he had misinformed them on the cost of upgrading ram. He would have told them that there were no other video card options available for that computer as he went on to tell me later in the conversation. He even threatened to prove it to me by going to the Apple website.

Now, you used your powers of seeing the future to know what he was going to say. Again, not cool.

You are right though...I didn't take the time to go into the couple's needs. Instead I made the assumption that since they wanted 3 gb of ram that they would also want to know about some of the other upgrades available to them.

I appreciate your willingness to come back here and post your reasons for interrupting, but you really are not painting this is a good light. Now matter how I try to look at it, you didn't do anyone any favors. You didn't hear the entire conversation. You didn't know their needs and made recommendations based upon assumptions. There is no way that you helped them make a decision. I think that you may have helped them decide against buying a Mac. It would just be easier for them to buy a PC that is on the shelf. It seems like it would be less confusing in their minds to do so.

I just think that as a sales professional you could have handled this better. I know you are not this guy's sales manager, and it isn't your job to show him how to sell, but perhaps mentioning options to him one on one away from the customer might have been more professional. Doing it that way may have helped both the customer and the salesperson. That way there would be a new Mac owner and a better educated rep out there who can both sell the platform to their friends and customers.

 

[emaja]

Well...if you had been there and seen the look on the couple's faces as they were thanking me for the information you might be leaning towards scenario 3b). I know that's how I was feeling until I got into this debate with you.

They have learned not to trust FS who could help them with this and other purchases as well as service and to trust someone who they will never see again.

I guess we are all making assumptions here since none of us were there for the entire conversation. If I was the salesperson - and I have been in that position - I would have asked them many questions about their needs and what they expect out of the computer before even attempting to make recommendations. If someone interrupted me as you did, I would have kindly told them that we have discussed many options and come to a conclusion together - and that I would be with you in a moment to do the same.

I do applaud your candor and your willingness to explain and defend your actions. I do not agree with your actions, but at least you have the integrity to keep this conversation going.

I also applaud your wanting to help. I disagree on whether you actually did help, but it appears that your heart was in the right place.

 

[kixsand]

Thank You for the kind words...

I really do believe that debate, arguments and ideas are an essential part of learning and growth. Some of what has been said on this forum is of merit and has caused me to sit back and reflect on my actions and my motives in the exchange with these people.

I expect that it might even cause me to react differently should a similar situation present itself.

Thanks,

 

[queshy]

Although kixsand hates my "Does anyone have an iMac that doesn't hum" thread, I'm kind of on the fence with this one.

THose people were probably buying at FS because they didn't want to wait the 2 weeks to get the computer...people like going into the stores and buying it when they need it, not getting it 2 weeks later.

If I were a customer like they were, I probably would have been happy that someone butted in and said that, because you really can't trust the salesman (I don't anyway). They'll just tell you anything to make the sale. whatever they have in stock and that's it - even if htey truly like computers and want to sell you something good, at the end of the day it's their commission so it's in their best interest to sell you teh computer. Whether or not the salesguy knew about the 7600GT is another story... But its important to do your OWN research before going into the store because salesmen are generally dishonest.

on the other hand, I sometimes hate when people try and butt in with sometimes stupid comments - those people could have been thinking: "how does he know what I need/don't need?" When I was at the apple store checking for dead pixels on the new machine, I found two, and some random guy came up to me and said "Oh common it's only two...most LCDs have 8!!! - you should consider yourself lucky!" I mean common, just mind your own business...

But I can see that kixsand was just trying to not let them make a VERY expensive mistake. I would have probably done the same thing because I really like macs. For example while at best buy contemplating hte iMac, I saw someone next tom e looking at the macbook, and asking hte salesmen "Does all this 'iphoto, iweb, idvd, etc" come with the computer??" and the salesmen responded "uh, Im not sure, uh, maybe , I dont think so, ill have to check" , and I was standing right there so I said "yes,it does - dont worry about it!", and he was happy.

\semirant

 

[Italchef]

Ethically speaking I would only interrupt a sale if I had overheard a salesperson say something that was untrue. Having said that, when dealing with any of these big box stores one must do their homework and research all aspects of their purchase. Everyone seems to know that the salespersons make most of their commissions on the extended warranties, but beyond that many people seem to be flying blind. Most of my larger electronics purchases have come from the big box stores due to price and convenience, but if I had listened to the salespersons making the sales god only knows what I'd have sitting in my living room at this moment. I've never worked in retail but I have no problem with an honest and knowledgeable attempt at an upsell.
For what its worth,

Mick

 

[kixsand]

Queshy,

Thanks for the support buddy...I appreciate it.

In my heart I'm more than fine with how things transpired. If anything I wish I could have done a better job conveying how things transpired just a bit better. With something so completely subjective in nature I don't think it would ever be possible to explain things with 100% accuracy -- I might be able to tell you what I understood the situation to be and what I was thinking but I cannot speak for the other three people that were present as I'm sure that they would tell the story more than a little differently.

It's never as black and white as CanadaRam has so pragmatically outlined in his postings within this thread.

Alright...enough of this nonsense...Who wants to buy a Volvo? Great deals on S60's right now...zero down, zero security, zero first payment, 1.0% interest rate. Keep your nose out of this CanadaRam...I'm trying to sell a car here!



Darren

 

[funkandamis]

And how are we to assume that the salesrep HADN'T already asked the customers what their use was, and had received an answer, before the OP jumped in and authoritatively told the customers that they needed something that he didn't know they needed?

Simple. If he had asked them, they would have said something along the lines of "this kind salesrep has already discussed that with us and we feel that we don't need the extra horsepower"

I think CanadaRAM is failing to see things from the customer's point of view. Did Kixsand really introduce that much confusion? It basically boils down to: "Excuse me, random customer, whether intentional or not, this salesrep isn't giving you all the information and I just wanted to let you know that you can upgrade your video card at other retail locations, if that's something you feel you need."

Please try to imagine yourself in the customer's position, NOT the salesrep's. FutureShop is a public space and free speech is fair game. Just because a customer walks into FutureShop, does not mean it's ok to lie to them.

 

[synth3tik]

I agree that most salespeople try too hard to get a sale whether they are on commission or not. But with out knowing what they wanted in the computer, pretty much ruined his sale and possible how the customer felt about the store. They didn't leave because they wanted to review their options, they left because the salesperson was told off by a customer and I am sure the salesperson way not to nice in letting you know what they thought. The people could have bought the Mac and been happy, or they could have noticed that they were missing out on some upgrades, at which point they would return it, stating that the salesmen said the upgrades were not available. What you did was not 100% bad, but a little more of the ease dropping may have helped.

Not that you did this, but when I was working in music sales I was showing these people some great recording software.They were running a PC. I was showing them a great hardware setup that was based around Cubase. A customer stepped in and told them they should go with Logic, (this would have been more money for me) I told the customer that I myself used Logic and loved it, but that since Apple bought Emagic, Logic no longer supported Windows. ( this was 4 months after Apple bought Emagic) The customer was angry that there was two different versions and left. They sided with the customer because he was not selling them anything I was, therefor I was trying to get money. I lost a $2600 sale because or a misinformed customer. Now I did not get in his face, but I did say that Apple had no plans for supporting Windows, and I went to the break room to kick stuff.

The customer is NOT always right, The customer THINKS their always right.

 

[dkirlew]

Synth3tik I agree with you on the eavesdropping. I actually eavesdropped on my friends who worked at CompUSA selling digital cameras. I have a bit of knowledge on the digital cameras at the store and gave them advice based off of how they were selling to their customers giving them specific camera solutions to cater to the specific needs of the audience. I spent several watching my friends sell cameras so I was able to do this. While my friends made the sale I kept myself away from them unless they specifically asked for my help since I've never been in sales. Their sales actually improved and they kept coming to me for more and more advice.

 

[synth3tik]

Synth3tik I agree with you on the eavesdropping. I actually eavesdropped on my friends who worked at CompUSA selling digital cameras. I have a bit of knowledge on the digital cameras at the store and gave them advice based off of how they were selling to their customers giving them specific camera solutions to cater to the specific needs of the audience. I spent several watching my friends sell cameras so I was able to do this. While my friends made the sale I kept myself away from them unless they specifically asked for my help since I've never been in sales. Their sales actually improved and they kept coming to me for more and more advice.

I hope they at least bought you dinner or drinks. Thats some invaluable stuff.

 

[murfle]

Just to add a couple more things...

I've actually had people in stores like FS see me walk in, grab something off the shelf, and stop me and ask something like, "I know you don't work here, but... are you knowledgeable about this stuff?"
Obviously, they're smart enough not to trust sales people there either.

Also, I've noticed a lot of people taking the side of the salesperson have been getting on kixsand's case for not having enough of the customer's requirements (basically assuming too much), yet almost all these comments are followed by other assumptions, like the customer having a bad experience because of it. If you're going to bad mouth someone for making assumptions, don't start making your own.

I don't see why people are so concerned over cheesing off a salesperson... They cheese me off half the time I'm forced to deal with one...

 

[emac82]

I have worked in comissioned sales for 7 years. The last 3 years have been selling computer for a National Chain in Canada. We sell Macs too. We are the only full-line Apple authorized Sales & Service reseller in New Brunswick. Everyone comes to us for Macs, and we can order in the BTO models as well. Essentially, there is no reason to order online instead of buying from us, because it's the same thing.

While it seems that the salesperson at Future Shop's knowledge on Macs was limited, you really shouldn't have stepped into the conversation. You weren't there for the whole conversation, and honestly, I'm sure the standard 24" would have been enough for them, maybe upgrade just the ram to 2GB.

I hate it when I hear "Sales people just want to sell what is in stock, so they can make their commission"..I find that comment stupid. If I don't have something in stock, and the customer wants me to order something in, we order it in. I would never make a customer buy something when they wanted something else. Not all salespeople are bad, not all of them are dumb, and they usually look out for the best interest of the customer. I know I do.

Apple sales are usually fairly easy, because the long-time hard core Mac users just come in and say "I want a MBP with 2GB of ram, with upgrapde video and processor" and we order it in. The new mac users are usually pc switchers and they don't need anything out of the ordinary because they are usually just browsing the internet, emails, etc.

So, yes you should have kept your nose out of it, yes the FS shop guy was giving them wrong information, they probably would have sensed that anyways and would have left if they weren't comfortable...I understand you think that what you were doing is fine, and it's not the end of the world, but as a salesperson, it can be very frustrating when a customer thinks they know more than me and it ends up confusing the customer..

Once I was selling a 24" iMac, and I was suggesting AppleCare, and some mac know-it-all walked by them and told them they didn't need AppleCare...so who are they going to believe? The person they don't know, or the sales person they have been dealing with and who has been looking out for their best interest. The 24" iMac is $2249CAD, and AppleCare is $199CAD, anyone who wouldn't buy it is stupid, because it's such an inexpensive warranty.

 

[andiwm2003]

there may be many good sales people but in my experience sales people many times actively withhold information to make a deal. withholding information in order to sell something is unethical. many if not most sales people would happily sell something even when they know you can get it much cheaper just across the street. again that is unethical and therefore they deserve to get their sale spoiled.

i don't mind paying a bit more if the service and the advice is good. i usually prefer to buy locally and support brick and mortar stores and the emplyees there.

but this "make a deal" behaviour with total disregard of the customers interest pisses me off. it's the sales persons job to get the best deal for the customer. (after all we expect for e.g. a physician to do the best for the patient rather than doing more surgery to make more money).

if they don't want to do this or if they don't have the skills and knowledge they shouldn't work in sales.

my 2 cents.

 

[Raid]

I think I'm with kixsand on this one, simply because I feel his intent was to educate the customer and the sales person on all the options available. I've worked in an electronics store myself back in University, and I have to admit it's hard knowing every detail of every product the store sells. If that situation had happened to me as the sales person I wouldn't have bothered to contradict kixsand even if I had disagreed. Instead I would have used that as a chance to look up that information (in a manual / on the net, whichever I could) and demonstrate to the customer that I was trying to give them all the options available and help them pick out the right product.

When the sales person got argumentative with kixsand, he was just loosing ground. At best the sales person was insisting he knew best, at worst he was lying and trying to brow-beat his way out of the situation.

BTW in Toronto, there's only been one sales person in a Future Shop/Best Buy store that I thought was an excellent Mac Salesman. He is an older guy (about 40-50) and work(ed?) in the Best Buy north of Yorkdale mall. The only other 'chain' store I've been to that I can trust is the guys at Compusmart on Yonge and Adelade; those guys sell a lot of Macs and are pretty knowledgeable.

 

[kixsand]

IYou weren't there for the whole conversation, and honestly, I'm sure the standard 24" would have been enough for them, maybe upgrade just the ram to 2GB.

That would be an assumption that you shouldn't make.

Not all salespeople are bad, not all of them are dumb, and they usually look out for the best interest of the customer. I know I do.

Again...that would be an assumption that you shouldn't make.

The new mac users are usually pc switchers and they don't need anything out of the ordinary because they are usually just browsing the internet, emails, etc.

One more time...that would be an assumption that you shouldn't make.

it can be very frustrating when a customer thinks they know more than me and it ends up confusing the customer...

Those customers...they should know better than that.

The 24" iMac is $2249CAD, and AppleCare is $199CAD, anyone who wouldn't buy it is stupid, because it's such an inexpensive warranty.

Again...I think that this is an assumption that you shouldn't make...there are people that would tell you that they don't believe in extended warranties or that they feel it isn't required in their case...

Darren

 

[murfle]

Sales people in a specialized store like yours are generally knowledgeable, and can be on the best lookout for the customer. Not in a store like Future Shop... I'm generalizing, and I know there must be a few 'good apples' in the bunch, so don't think I'm saying just because someone sells at future shop means they know nothing, and only want $$$... But that's mostly the case in my experience there. But you do make very valid points.

The 24" iMac is $2249CAD, and AppleCare is $199CAD, anyone who wouldn't buy it is stupid, because it's such an inexpensive warranty.

You know, I was agreeing with a lot of what you said up until you said this. But that statement is the biggest steaming pile I've heard from almost all sales people. I have NEVER ONCE purchased an extended warranty plan... There was ONE occasion where it would have benefited me to have it... Instead I had to pay $35 to have it shipped to the manufacture to have it repaired under the manufacturers warrenty... I have purchased a heck of a lot of expensive gadgets in my time, and a 4 year extended warrenty would have cost $200+ on a lot of them.
Let's say I spent $2249 on a 24" iMac, and it went kaput 1 day after the warranty ended... The cost of repairing it, heck, even the cost of buying a brand new one... I'd still not have spent as much as I would have on your precious juice, er, warranties. (Yes, the sales people at Future Shop (at least from my city) call extended warranties 'juice'...)
So by your statement, I'm stupid for saving money in the long run... Good show!

 

[CanadaRAM]

Again...I think that this is an assumption that you shouldn't make...there are people that would tell you that they don't believe in extended warranties or that they feel it isn't required in their case...

Darren

Absent any evidence to the contrary, it is your assumptions that are the central issue here.

 

[kellen]

Wow, thought it was going to be a totally different thread when I opened it up .
Reading over this, it seems like alot of assumptions are being made.
I feel you were fine butting in. Perhaps it was not 100% kosher, but I would say more help than harm was done.

More information can't be a bad thing in my opinion and although if I was that customer, you would have made my decision more difficult, I would nonetheless be grateful for the information.

 

[kixsand]

Absent any evidence to the contrary, it is your assumptions that are the central issue here.

Wow...you're a crusty son of a gun. I kind of like it. When I read your postings the voice of CanadaRam becomes that of Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. I encourage everyone to go back through the thread and apply the Comic Book Guy voice to CanadaRam's postings...it is funny.

"In scenario 3b) you are the white knight who saved the customers from an inappropriate purchase. Yay."

Seriously though:

I've been fully up front and candid about my assumptions and where they led me.

I was just trying to point out that there are a lot of people on this thread making assumptions so that they can make a point here in this discussion. It's nice to see that people arriving to the thread today can see this and are a little less condemning in their sentiments.

darren

 

[Cepe Indicum]

Wow, I just had to chip in to one of the most heated threads I've read in ages! Great reading, and interesting to hear two sides of the argument debated so passionately!

But I think I have read just one post that comes at it from the CUSTOMERS' perspective...

Everyone here seems to have taken the line that these are people who just smile politely, nod along, etc. But, looking at the original post, it seems they were alert and educated enough about computers to know and discuss their options with regard to RAM...

Therefore surely, had the customers thought that they had been well advised by their salesperson, they would have told the OP just that, and continued with their purchase...

I see the points being made against the OP, and I'm sure all of you are / were good enough salespeople that you always (or at least most of the time, as everyone's human) gave the best advice you could to your customers. Unfortunately, as in many lines of work, there are those people who are just out to make the sale, regardless of the actual needs of the customer.

 

[Mr. MacBook]

Dude thats just plain mean...

It's understandable if you tell someone that "That video game isnt worth buying" but when you start getting in the $1000 range your just ruining it for the salesperson.

 

[Rinso]

I cannot say for sure whether you did the right thing or not. However, sometimes you have to get into bed with the devil to the angel's work.

I probably would have done the same thing as you.

 

[kixsand]

This thread has been a lot of fun I must admit. When I made the post initially, I really did think that I would get a couple of return posts recounting simimilar experiences but nothing like what followed.

When I saw the backlash I was very uncomfortable with the position that I found myself in. I haven't had a lot of experience playing defence to the extent that I had to in defending my actions in this thread. And while I have tried to needle CanadaRAM a little bit throughout this thread he was likely the most consistent and logical in mounting an offence against my actions and I respect him for it -- others were good as well but there were a few that were less than well thought out -- I won't name names.

The bottom line for me is that I've been more than engaged throughout the past day and a half and have found myself eagerly checking the forum to see what has been said. I stole time from work today to make a couple of posts and that is saying something for the power of a forum like this.

Intelligent debate is extremely rewarding when it doesn't degrade to immature name calling and the like ... my Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons allusion for CanadaRAM doesn't count because that was genuinely funny...I know because I laughed out loud a lot!

Thanks,

darren