G4's Get Shafted

[Multimedia]

The Key To Staying Current Is To Sell Your Mac Each Time New Ones Ship

It will only cost you a few hundred dollars each time if you sell your Mac and buy the new one each time they ship. Hanging on to a particular unit for longer than its current reign is why most of you find yourselves in this pickle now.

Each new OS is built to take advantage of the newest hardware with future hardware plans in mind as well. I think Apple does a great job of providing as much legacy support as they possibly can under these constraints.

I understand how easy it is to become attached to a particular unit. But you have to discipline yourself to sell each time and you will then either perhaps make a profit, lose no money or only have to spend a few hundred more to advance to the next level. I bought and sold 4 different G5 PowerMacs during that era - the last being a 2GHz DC just now for a $275 profit. I sold a dual 2.5 G5 PM for $2500 20 months ago after the Intel era had already begun in February 2006 when the October 2005 Quad G5 was already only $2699 refurbished.

You just have to discipline yourselves to let go each time and move on up to the next great Mac. You may also want to notice that the current line always goes refurbished within only a couple of months at most and that is a way you can sell and buy for almost no money at all. Refurbished Macs are indistinguishable from new ones and carry the exact same warranty as new ones. Even if something is wrong with one, Apple fixes it for free right away.

So the whining here is all about you who did not sell out of date Macs as soon as they became outdated. I understand that there are issues with some software and hardware not translating to the next great Mac right away or in fact never. But there are still ways to advance as soon as possible without taking a financial bath by waiting longer than you need to.

Tiger is an awesome system and will serve legacy systems well. There are work arounds to get Leopard running on all G4 and even G3 Macs. So all is not lost. But please give Apple a break when you are really complaining about your inaction over years of opportunities to roll over your gear.

 

[Cromulent]

Stupid question, but what is de-interlacing and why would I benefit from it?

Video is either interlaced or progressive. An interlaced video is one which splits one frame up into two frames. The first will show half the frame and the second will show the other half. Progressive video shows the full image in one frame and is thus higher quality. De-interlacing mearly merges the two frames together.

 

[thomasp]

It will only cost you a few hundred dollars each time if you sell your Mac and buy the new one each time they ship. Hanging on to a particular unit for longer than its current reign is why most of you find yourselves in this pickle now.

In some cases, hanging onto older machines can be beneficial. My dad is a professional photographer, working with 48Mb RAW files and his main work machine is a Dual 867MHz G4 (MDD). He's been thinking about upgrading it for the last 2 years but has never really seen a need to as it was running fast enough for him. However, I told him recently that his computer was 5 years old - he now wants to upgrade!

OK, it has seen some upgrades over the years - second internal hard drive and maxing out of the RAM, but for a 5 year old rig, it still keeps up!

So the whining here is all about you who did not sell out of date Macs as soon as they became outdated. I understand that there are issues with some software and hardware not translating to the next great Mac right away or in fact never. But there are still ways to advance as soon as possible without taking a financial bath by waiting longer than you need to.

Trouble is, I really wouldn't consider my 2nd-to-last generation PowerBook "out of date". The latest generation of PB's stopped being sold 19 months ago, that is still "modern" in computing terms.

And for some people, we can't afford to upgrade as soon as a new model comes out, either in the time taken to obtain and change over, or in physical cash. Some of us have no option but to wait until the computer is no more useful than a doorstop to upgrade

But please give Apple a break when you are really complaining about your inaction over years of opportunities to roll over your gear.

If I was to sell my PB now, not including the cost of the repair, I'd have spent £650/year on it - that's virtually the cost of a MacBook! I simply cannot afford to upgrade every year.

Video is either interlaced or progressive. An interlaced video is one which splits one frame up into two frames. The first will show half the frame and the second will show the other half. Progressive video shows the full image in one frame and is thus higher quality. De-interlacing mearly merges the two frames together

So you'd get a sharper picture?

I assume there'll be an option to turn the de-interlacing off on "dinosaur" machines.

 

[sananda]

i like buying somethings useful and beautiful and then keeping it. i don't want to be a market trader.

 

[J@ffa]

Mmm. I have a 1.8GHz G5 iMac, and though I know Leopard will run well on it, it's still a bit sucky for me. All the same, technology obviously changes and the Intel Macs are streets ahead of even the top-end G5 towers, which is why my plan is eventually to get an MacBook Pro. My current iMac has served me well though; 2GB of RAM, and I have 760GB of combined storage, with a 500GB external soon to be added as a backup drive for use with Time Machine. The only things that really make the PPC difference obvious (and painful!) are video encoding and HD video playback. Otherwise, the snappiness is the only thing missing.

 

[Multimedia]

i like buying somethings useful and beautiful and then keeping it. i don't want to be a market trader.

That's fine and I understand that. But then you must expect that future systems will not fully work on your older hardware due to the advancement of hardware and software technologies in future years. That's your trade off. I'm just addressing the complainers here not those who want to keep one model for aesthetic reasons.

G4's did not get "Shafted" by Apple with Leopard. They all run Tiger very well. They all ran Panther very well. They all ran Jaguar very well. They all ran Puma very well. And they all ran Cheetah very well. And many of them even run Leopard very well. The premise of the thread is not accurate. That's all I'm saying.

Mmm. I have a 1.8GHz G5 iMac, and though I know Leopard will run well on it, it's still a bit sucky for me. All the same, technology obviously changes and the Intel Macs are streets ahead of even the top-end G5 towers, which is why my plan is eventually to get an MacBook Pro. My current iMac has served me well though; 2GB of RAM, and I have 760GB of combined storage, with a 500GB external soon to be added as a backup drive for use with Time Machine. The only things that really make the PPC difference obvious (and painful!) are video encoding and HD video playback. Otherwise, the snappiness is the only thing missing.

Here's an example of someone who did not sell their iMac and get the next one when they could have for maybe no money or another $100 in January of 2006 and then again this summer from CD to C2D. By hanging on to a model that is externally indistinguishable from the last ivory iMac, he lost the opportunity to advance to a lot more power for almost no money.

The shift from a single 1.8GHz G5 to 2GHz Core Duo in January 2006 was gigantic. That was definitely the time to roll over what you have back then. You simply weren't paying attention to what was happening.

 

[gnasher729]

Stupid question, but what is de-interlacing and why would I benefit from it?

It has to do with the way that old (pre-LCD) TVs used to work. Each frame is made of two half-frames. The first frame covers all the even lines (line 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 etc.) of a picture, the second frame covers all the odd lines (lines 1, 3, 5, 7 etc. ). Now if you have 30 frames per second or 60 half frames per second, these two half-frames are 1/60th of a second apart. So if you have a car driving through a scene, the even lines show the car where it is at some time X, and the odd lines show the car where it is at time X + 1/60th second. This way of recording and displaying a film is called "interlacing"

If your DVD is recorded that way (interlaced), and most material coming from TV is, then two half-frames must be combined into one frame, because LCDs work different from old TVs. And as I just explained, these half frames don't fit together correctly. The DVD player must do something clever to make the two half-frames fit together better, and that is called de-interlacing. There are simple ways of doing this which basically make the image smoother and you lose about half the vertical resolution of the film. That is quite easy to do.

Enhanced de-interlacing tries to do this better. Basically it analyses all the frames and detects moving objects. Knowing where moving objects are in a film, it can predict how things move from one half-frame to the next, and then it can compensate for this movement and fit the two half-frames together correctly. That looks a lot better on the screen, and it uses lots of processor power to do it. A 1 GHz G4 is just not powerful enough to do it.

So if you have a 1 GHz G4, you can play DVDs, you can use de-interlacing, you just can't use enhanced de-interlacing.

 

[sananda]

That's fine and I understand that. But then you must expect that future systems will not fully work on your older hardware due to the advancement of hardware and software technologies in future years. That's your trade off. I'm just addressing the complainers here not those who want to keep one model for aesthetic reasons.

G4's did not get "Shafted" by Apple with Leopard. They all run Tiger very well. They all ran Panther very well. They all ran Jaguar very well. They all ran Puma very well. And they all ran Cheetah very well. And many of them even run Leopard very well. The premise of the thread is not accurate. That's all I'm saying.

personally, i am happy keeping what i have. it has served me well for two years and will continue to serve me well (albeit that my computing requirements are relatively modest). but i can totally understand those, like you, who take advantage of the excellent resale value of macs, and maximise their investment and always have the best performing computer.

i can also understand those who have recent g4s being a little bit annoyed. but i think that's the fault of it not being possible to put a g5 in our laptops. and that's one of the reasons apple changed to intel.

 

[gnasher729]

Because they kill an app just because of one feature can't work on G4's. Especially an app that everyone practically uses. Unless Apple gives us a different app to play DVD's, having DVD player totally not work on G4's is entirely stupid. That is not evolution of technology, that is stupidity of the company. But, that is not the case. DVD player will still work on G4's to play DVD's. It just won't have that new feature. If people sue because of that, then it is stupid. But, they should sue if Apple killed DVD player for G4's period because people can't play DVD's anymore unless Apple replaces it.

I think when you buy Leopard you will find that the DVD player works just fine on every G4, and de-interlacing works just fine as it always did, but advanced de-interlacing doesn't work because your machine is just not powerful enough for it. So your whole rant is for nothing.

 

[jhkingsr]

I guess I'm getting shafted because my dvd player won't play HD. How dare they come out with a format that won't play on my machine. I think I'll sue.......

Really, Leopard has a set of minimum requirements. If your hardware doesn't meet them, you can't use it.

 

[Multimedia]

You Can Use Leopard Even If Your Mac Doesn't Meet Apple's Minimum Specifications

Really, Leopard has a set of minimum requirements. If your hardware doesn't meet them, you can't use it.

Now see that's just not true. There is already a Guide: Install Leopard On Older Macs thread here explaining exactly how to hack Leopard so it will install and run on very slow G4s as well as G3 Macs. So the notion you can't have most of Leopard's features on any older Mac is just plain fallacious.

 

[zioxide]

So the whining here is all about you who did not sell out of date Macs as soon as they became outdated. I understand that there are issues with some software and hardware not translating to the next great Mac right away or in fact never. But there are still ways to advance as soon as possible without taking a financial bath by waiting longer than you need to.

Many (if not most) people can't afford to replace their machines every 6 months. You might say it only costs a couple hundred bucks, but that adds up real quick.

However, you also have to consider that the average lifespan of a computer will be like 3-4 years. After around 3 years, they're going to be slow compared to what's new on the market, and they will start to not run some new software.

The problem is that people with G4s have 7 year old machines. You might have just bought your PowerBook 2 years ago, but in 2005 the PowerPC G4 chip was 5 years old. The problem was that IBM never made a G5 that could be used in a portable, so all of the portables were left a generation behind. That's why the jump to Intel was so significant for the portable line (speed increases of like 7x).

The bottom line is that you can't expect some of Leopard's newest features to support 7 year old chips. They're just too processor intensive for an old chip, and the ones that are Intel only most likely use new types of instruction sets like SSE, SSE2, etc.

Basically, you can't expect new software and features to run on a computer that's using 7 year old technology and CPU architecture. If you want to use the newest features, you need to buy a new Intel Mac.

 

[SkyBell]

Wirelessly posted (Motorola-V3m Obigo/Q04C1 MMP/2.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1)

How did I get on this side of the argument??

All I meant to say was there's a definite disconnect between the PPC and the Intel processors, and those of us who haven't made the jump yet feel a bit slighted or left behind at times.

I'm upgrading remember. I didn't mean to start a "My PPC is every bit as good as your Intel Mac" war. I'm gonna drop $2,500 on an Intel Mac! Don't try and tell my wife I don't have to! I do!

I just feel the OPs pain that sometimes it feels like "wow, time to upgrade already?" and "Would I HAVE to upgrade if Apple still made Power PCs? If we were on G6 by now, would the G4 be SO left behind?"

Well i do beleive that my ppc mac is still good. sure i have an intel mini, but i was hoping i could put leopard on my 800 MHz iBook G3.

 

[quagmire]

I think when you buy Leopard you will find that the DVD player works just fine on every G4, and de-interlacing works just fine as it always did, but advanced de-interlacing doesn't work because your machine is just not powerful enough for it. So your whole rant is for nothing.

I know it will play DVD's just fine like it used to. I am just saying if Apple did kill DVD player for G4's period just because of the new feature that people would be pissed off rightfully so and would probably win the lawsuit that will probably follow. My 1 Ghz 12" Powerbook G4 played DVD's fairly well before, so why should a new feature of the application kill my DVD watching capabilities? I can get that I won't have the quality of the machines capable of the new feature, but I still expect to be able to watch DVD's on my computer. Again, that is if Apple totally bricked DVD player for G4's. Which they didn't. DVD player will still play DVD's on G4 machines like it used to.

 

[jackc]

I know it will play DVD's just fine like it used to. I am just saying if Apple did kill DVD player for G4's period just because of the new feature that people would be pissed off rightfully so and would probably win the lawsuit that will probably follow. My 1 Ghz 12" Powerbook G4 played DVD's fairly well before, so why should a new feature of the application kill my DVD watching capabilities? I can get that I won't have the quality of the machines capable of the new feature, but I still expect to be able to watch DVD's on my computer. Again, that is if Apple totally bricked DVD player for G4's. Which they didn't. DVD player will still play DVD's on G4 machines like it used to.

Win the lawsuit? Bwahahahahahaha

 

[Cromulent]

I know it will play DVD's just fine like it used to. I am just saying if Apple did kill DVD player for G4's period just because of the new feature that people would be pissed off rightfully so and would probably win the lawsuit that will probably follow. My 1 Ghz 12" Powerbook G4 played DVD's fairly well before, so why should a new feature of the application kill my DVD watching capabilities? I can get that I won't have the quality of the machines capable of the new feature, but I still expect to be able to watch DVD's on my computer. Again, that is if Apple totally bricked DVD player for G4's. Which they didn't. DVD player will still play DVD's on G4 machines like it used to.

So what if Apple made the DVD Player application not work on some machines? You could just use VLC player. It is not like they broke your computer or something.

Give me a break, there is no way someone would win a law suit against Apple for making DVD Player incompatible with their machine.

 

[J@ffa]

Here's an example of someone who did not sell their iMac and get the next one when they could have for maybe no money or another $100 in January of 2006 and then again this summer from CD to C2D. By hanging on to a model that is externally indistinguishable from the last ivory iMac, he lost the opportunity to advance to a lot more power for almost no money.

The shift from a single 1.8GHz G5 to 2GHz Core Duo in January 2006 was gigantic. That was definitely the time to roll over what you have back then. You simply weren't paying attention to what was happening.

I knew exactly what was happening. Your theory on 'flipping' every high-value item you own every few months is completely unrealistic. I simply don't have time to run around Apple stores just so I can permanently be on the bleeding edge all the time, nor do I feel like spending my money in such a way, nor does the thought of joining the rat race on eBay and endure the hassle of upgrading for the sake of bragging rights. My Mac is perfectly fine for most of what I do, and to pretend that I need an Intel processor when in reality it would simply be nice would be delusional. I know people who do graphic design for a living on G3 PowerBooks. Sure, they'd have more power and all the creature comforts of Tiger/Leopard, but they have no desire to go through the hassle of upgrading all their software and worrying over incompatibilities.

 

[desenso]

While I can sympathize with those who won't get to enjoy Leopard's full features, I can't help but think that those who are complaining are in a lose-lose situation. They clearly find Apple's choice to side more with innovation than compatibility to be a clearly a frustrating issue. On the other hand, had Apple released a turd of an OS X upgrade in order to maintain full compatibility, there would surely be a large number of complainers, including, I imagine, a number of the people who are shedding tears in this very thread, complaining that Apple isn't innovating enough.

Computers are not a static industry. You have to either accept stagnation or pay the price of innovation (new computers). You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

 

[jhkingsr]

Now see that's just not true....... So the notion you can't have most of Leopard's features on any older Mac is just plain fallacious.

That wasn't the purpose of my post. I just wanted to make the point that you can't expect old machines to run the newest software just like a new machine. People need to be realistic in their expectations of what Apple should do to address older hardware. I wasn't trying to expound a fallacy.

 

[disconap]

EDIT: this is in reply to the post by thomasp at the end of page 1.


The G4 chip in your laptop is not 6 or 7 years old, it's about 3. The base architecture is older, though.

And why would you get rid of your laptop? If it does everything you need it to right now, keep it as is, with Tiger, and buy a new laptop when you need one. I've gotten two years out of my ibook so far, and I will probably get another two more...

It will only cost you a few hundred dollars each time if you sell your Mac and buy the new one each time they ship. Hanging on to a particular unit for longer than its current reign is why most of you find yourselves in this pickle now.

Cool. You planning on sending everyone a few hundred dollars every time there's a new rev? Each approach has its pluses and minuses, but personally I think it's foolish to be buying top of the line and replacing constantly unless you work in a field where its a necessity to stay current (like LucasFilms, or applied physics). If you can afford to blow a few hundred dollars a year, you can probably also afford to wait and buy a new model when you need it, and probably end up saving some serious cash over the years. But then, if you can afford to blow money like that on things that aren't remotely necessities (see disclaimer above), then it probably doesn't matter either way.

And also, I don't really see it as a "pickle". But then I probably won't bother with Leopard, at least for a year or so.

Each new OS is built to take advantage of the newest hardware with future hardware plans in mind as well. I think Apple does a great job of providing as much legacy support as they possibly can under these constraints.

100% agreed. Apple is actually really great about it. The 1gHz G4 is almost 6 years old (first model introduced January 2002). Find me a six year old PC running Vista...

I understand how easy it is to become attached to a particular unit. But you have to discipline yourself to sell each time and you will then either perhaps make a profit, lose no money or only have to spend a few hundred more to advance to the next level. I bought and sold 4 different G5 PowerMacs during that era - the last being a 2GHz DC just now for a $275 profit. I sold a dual 2.5 G5 PM for $2500 20 months ago after the Intel era had already begun in February 2006 when the October 2005 Quad G5 was already only $2699 refurbished.

Again, think of what you're saying; it's not the worst advice in the world for someone who has that kind of money to kick around, has multiple machines, or can afford to either not have a working machine in the interim between receiving payment and buying a new machine. For most of us, the cost and time would end up costing us more in the end.

You just have to discipline yourselves to let go each time and move on up to the next great Mac. You may also want to notice that the current line always goes refurbished within only a couple of months at most and that is a way you can sell and buy for almost no money at all. Refurbished Macs are indistinguishable from new ones and carry the exact same warranty as new ones. Even if something is wrong with one, Apple fixes it for free right away.

Why discipline? How does discipline enter into it? It's sort of like making the same argument about cars, which I never understand. You lose money in every possible way when you continually buy or lease up, as you are continually replacing a machine that doesn't need to be replaced (again, unless you're part of the human genome project or something). I buy used and refurbed macs, fix them up, and have as of yet not purchased an intel mac. I do processor intensive work and have not yet heard any argument that sways me towards replacing my G5 at this point.

So the whining here is all about you who did not sell out of date Macs as soon as they became outdated. I understand that there are issues with some software and hardware not translating to the next great Mac right away or in fact never. But there are still ways to advance as soon as possible without taking a financial bath by waiting longer than you need to.

I agree on the whining, but again I don't see the bath. If you sell your comp, say thrice a year, to upgrade to the next model, leaving out the cost of the time and hassle involved, let's say it costs you maybe $200 per sale (being generous). That's $600 per year. Now, if you are like me and you buy a used G5 for $850, then three years late when it is obsolete buy a perhaps year old Mac Pro for around $1200, the combined cost without any recoup from the G5 sale ends up being about the same in that three year span, and when you figure you can likely get a few hundred for that G5, it becomes cheaper.

Its all about what you need, what you want, and what you're willing to spend.

Tiger is an awesome system and will serve legacy systems well. There are work arounds to get Leopard running on all G4 and even G3 Macs. So all is not lost. But please give Apple a break when you are really complaining about your inaction over years of opportunities to roll over your gear.

I am again one of those folks who lives by the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy (if that hasn't come across already ). I only upgraded to Tiger about a year or so ago, if even that; Panther is still a very current system. It's one of the benefits of OSX, 10.3 and up anyway...

That's fine and I understand that. But then you must expect that future systems will not fully work on your older hardware due to the advancement of hardware and software technologies in future years. That's your trade off. I'm just addressing the complainers here not those who want to keep one model for aesthetic reasons.

Wish I'd read this first, could have saved myself my entire last post...

The shift from a single 1.8GHz G5 to 2GHz Core Duo in January 2006 was gigantic. That was definitely the time to roll over what you have back then. You simply weren't paying attention to what was happening.

Yeah, see, no. Again you're only seeing your perspective. As a graphics designer, January 2006 would have been a HORRIBLE time to swap up to the Mac Pro, as I would have gone a year and change with my machine running significantly slower in Adobe apps. Even now it's a bad call until I can afford to upgrade to CS3, though the bogging of Rosetta is starting to catch up with itself (CS2 on the next gen MacPros will likely be as fast or faster than running native on PPC machines). CS3 is, of course, faster all around, but also has a price tag around the same as a new mac. So think that way as well; for me to move to the intel mac, I have to end up paying twice as much as you do or seeing no improvement...

Just pointing out that, while you aren't wrong for you and likely many people, you aren't right across the board either.

 

[CavemanUK]

Why don't we focus on the stuff G4 owners DO get!

• Time Machine
• Spaces
• New Mail/iCal
• Parental Controls
• Quick Look
• Finder
• ...The list goes on...

If all i'm missing is gimics (albeit fun gimics) like photobooth, ichat backdrops as well as better video conferencing then its no big deal. Nobody is 100% sure that DVD Player WONT work and its just plain silly to mention BootCamp. This is NOT Apples fault! When we bought our G4's we never expected Windows to work so why cry about it now! Microsoft built windows for x86!

Anyway I think there is a lot to try out and its very exciting. Just be glad you ain't getting Vista! It still makes me laugh that Vista's desktop eyecandy needs such high-end graphics cards when my old eMac 800 with GF2MX could do all the effects Vista shows off!

 

[fart]

they should have cut off all PowerPC support, no need to hold back progress. That's one of the things that separates Apple from Microsoft. Microsoft has to worry about hardware compatibility across the board, apple doesn't.

 

[Cleverboy]

Okay, this made me laugh. I was looking over my options. I'm still mostly using my PC (3Ghz+), and my Mac (G4 400 mhz) painly needs to be upgraded, but its not in the budget yet. Maaaaybe a $300-$400 upgrade would be in the budget immediately, but not a whole new computer. I was looking around to see if there was a daughter card processor upgrade available on the cheap (something that'll shoot me over the min. requirements just to tied me over until I do a proper upgrade to a new box).

Maybe, I don't know... like $75 or maybe $150? Couldn't find anything anywhere near that cheap (everything was mostly $300+ to upgrade the processor on a G4 machine). Then, on a whim, I checked eBay for the cost of a whole new G4 machine (Quicksilver/800 mHz+), and surprise, surprise... some of them are starting at under $50 or so.

Oyyyy. Now that's irony.

Nicest thing about having a profoundly OLD machine... is that you can get a significantly better machine without much effort. When I first heard John, the Mac Genius, say that "Leopard was compatible with Macs made in the last several years", I thought he was bending the truth, until I stopped at apple-history.com and realized I'd been leaning on the Mac "pause" button for too long.

~ CB

 

[sananda]

they should have cut off all PowerPC support.

they were sold until may 2006!!

 

[rdowns]

they should have cut off all PowerPC support, no need to hold back progress. That's one of the things that separates Apple from Microsoft. Microsoft has to worry about hardware compatibility across the board, apple doesn't.

Sounds like you've been using Macs for little more than it takes for your smell to dissipate.