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I guess I'll use your style...
>The G5 rumors claim 400 mhz FSB. Where is all this RAM (that can
handle 400 mhz FSBs) anyway? Or have I missed something?
Last I checked Rambus operates at 400 mhz. Besides, it is a rumor. It's more likely DDR running at 266 (or 300-that's close to being out too btw).
>I was planning to (rhetorically) ask if you'd found an IDE HD that tops
out at 133 MB/s, but figured that you'd have enough trouble finding one
that tops out at half that, so I posed 100 MB/s instead. So again, where
are these >= 70 MB/s IDE HDs anyway?
Probably on the way. The spec allows for burst (i.e. tops out) speeds of 133 MB/s. That's not sustained, but it is faster. When Seagate puts out a 15,000 rpm cheetah running on ATA 133, then you'll have your 70 MB/s hd.
>If IDE drives (take a typical high-end consumer drive, 7200 rpm) top out
at (say) 60 MB/s, precisely how is ATA-100 going to speed them up? I'm
assuming that 7200 RPM IDE hard drives don't surpass ~60 MB/s (peak read
or write).
Let's talk peak vs. sustained speed. Peak doesn't matter much, you only hit it occasionally. ATA 100 allows for higher sustained speeds. I have seen this myself. I happen to have an ATA 66 hd and an ATA 100 hd. Both are 7200 rpm. Both have a 2mb cache. The ATA100 drive is about twice as fast when connected to my controller card running benchmark tests. So it DOES make a difference.
And as for the spindle speeds, they will get up there. That's why Apple should allow for ATA100/133 interface. That's what extensibility is all about.
>The G5 rumors claim 400 mhz FSB. Where is all this RAM (that can
handle 400 mhz FSBs) anyway? Or have I missed something?
Last I checked Rambus operates at 400 mhz. Besides, it is a rumor. It's more likely DDR running at 266 (or 300-that's close to being out too btw).
>I was planning to (rhetorically) ask if you'd found an IDE HD that tops
out at 133 MB/s, but figured that you'd have enough trouble finding one
that tops out at half that, so I posed 100 MB/s instead. So again, where
are these >= 70 MB/s IDE HDs anyway?
Probably on the way. The spec allows for burst (i.e. tops out) speeds of 133 MB/s. That's not sustained, but it is faster. When Seagate puts out a 15,000 rpm cheetah running on ATA 133, then you'll have your 70 MB/s hd.
>If IDE drives (take a typical high-end consumer drive, 7200 rpm) top out
at (say) 60 MB/s, precisely how is ATA-100 going to speed them up? I'm
assuming that 7200 RPM IDE hard drives don't surpass ~60 MB/s (peak read
or write).
Let's talk peak vs. sustained speed. Peak doesn't matter much, you only hit it occasionally. ATA 100 allows for higher sustained speeds. I have seen this myself. I happen to have an ATA 66 hd and an ATA 100 hd. Both are 7200 rpm. Both have a 2mb cache. The ATA100 drive is about twice as fast when connected to my controller card running benchmark tests. So it DOES make a difference.
And as for the spindle speeds, they will get up there. That's why Apple should allow for ATA100/133 interface. That's what extensibility is all about.
K
KingNothing
Guest
1 ide channel, 2hd's
each one bursts 45-50=90-100
ata133 would be nice...
especially needed in ata raid configs, stripe 0
faster hd's WILL be comin... and thus will eventually saturate the 133mb ceiling too
next step 166 or serial ata?
each one bursts 45-50=90-100
ata133 would be nice...
especially needed in ata raid configs, stripe 0
faster hd's WILL be comin... and thus will eventually saturate the 133mb ceiling too
next step 166 or serial ata?
I think ATA 166, haven't heard past that. Maybe go back to SCSI? i.e. SCSI 320? Maybe ditch ATA altogether, as Firewire b is supposed to scale to 1600 mbits/sec. That's like ATA-200!
Hmm... an interesting idea:
So in a few years when Firewire is at 1600 and we've got 4 ghz G5's (or G6's), what if Apple made an entirely new type of computer, one that's totally modular. You'd have a small base containing the processor, ram, display card, and cooling. You would then have a monitor port and multiple firewire ports for hard drives, ipods, whatever. Think of it...with only processor, ram, and display card, they would be cheap. Schools could buy them and put them in classrooms. Each student could carry a HD with them, and just plug it in and boot up.
Ok, just a little glimpse of the future. On a more concrete note, and all-firewire system would (or at least could) be cheaper to build, assuming you could get production of internal firewire hard drives into volume production.
So in a few years when Firewire is at 1600 and we've got 4 ghz G5's (or G6's), what if Apple made an entirely new type of computer, one that's totally modular. You'd have a small base containing the processor, ram, display card, and cooling. You would then have a monitor port and multiple firewire ports for hard drives, ipods, whatever. Think of it...with only processor, ram, and display card, they would be cheap. Schools could buy them and put them in classrooms. Each student could carry a HD with them, and just plug it in and boot up.
Ok, just a little glimpse of the future. On a more concrete note, and all-firewire system would (or at least could) be cheaper to build, assuming you could get production of internal firewire hard drives into volume production.
>>The G5 rumors claim 400 mhz FSB. Where is all this RAM (that can
handle 400 mhz FSBs) anyway? Or have I missed something?
>Last I checked Rambus operates at 400 mhz.
I doubt Apple would be using RDRAM; If they had planned to, we probably
would know by now.
>Besides, it is a rumor. It's more likely DDR running at 266 (or
300-that's close to being out too btw).
A few months back The Reg reported that Nanya was preparing to crank out
DDR 333 (riding out the slump with high-margin items).
>>If IDE drives (take a typical high-end consumer drive, 7200 rpm) top out
at (say) 60 MB/s, precisely how is ATA-100 going to speed them up? I'm
assuming that 7200 RPM IDE hard drives don't surpass ~60 MB/s (peak read
or write).
>Let's talk peak vs. sustained speed. Peak doesn't matter much, you only
hit it occasionally. ATA 100 allows for higher sustained speeds. I have
seen this myself. I happen to have an ATA 66 hd and an ATA 100 hd. Both
are 7200 rpm. Both have a 2mb cac he. The ATA100 drive is about twice as
fast when connected to my controller card running benchmark tests. So it
DOES make a difference.
Fair enough. However I find it odd that the disparity would be so large
("twice as fast"); perhaps the card's ("controller card"; I assume you
installed an ata/100 card) drivers are of higher quality than the onboard
(presumably) ata/66 interface.
>And as for the spindle speeds, they will get up there. That's why Apple
should allow for ATA100/133 interface. That's what extensibility is all
about.
I would like to see 10k drives; although they generate a lot of heat apparently.
handle 400 mhz FSBs) anyway? Or have I missed something?
>Last I checked Rambus operates at 400 mhz.
I doubt Apple would be using RDRAM; If they had planned to, we probably
would know by now.
>Besides, it is a rumor. It's more likely DDR running at 266 (or
300-that's close to being out too btw).
A few months back The Reg reported that Nanya was preparing to crank out
DDR 333 (riding out the slump with high-margin items).
>>If IDE drives (take a typical high-end consumer drive, 7200 rpm) top out
at (say) 60 MB/s, precisely how is ATA-100 going to speed them up? I'm
assuming that 7200 RPM IDE hard drives don't surpass ~60 MB/s (peak read
or write).
>Let's talk peak vs. sustained speed. Peak doesn't matter much, you only
hit it occasionally. ATA 100 allows for higher sustained speeds. I have
seen this myself. I happen to have an ATA 66 hd and an ATA 100 hd. Both
are 7200 rpm. Both have a 2mb cac he. The ATA100 drive is about twice as
fast when connected to my controller card running benchmark tests. So it
DOES make a difference.
Fair enough. However I find it odd that the disparity would be so large
("twice as fast"); perhaps the card's ("controller card"; I assume you
installed an ata/100 card) drivers are of higher quality than the onboard
(presumably) ata/66 interface.
>And as for the spindle speeds, they will get up there. That's why Apple
should allow for ATA100/133 interface. That's what extensibility is all
about.
I would like to see 10k drives; although they generate a lot of heat apparently.
Wow you're anal joey! You asked where this 400 mhz ram was, and I answered Rambus. I don't think Apple will use Rambus either, hence the comment about DDR. The difference in speed in my hard drives is probably due to the fact that one is a Maxtor and the other is a Seagate. I remember I hooked them both up to my motherboard (ATA 66) and the seagate was about 30-40% faster, so it's not all interface. But most of it is. Oh, and Maxtor has an 80 gig 7200 rpm ATA 133 drive for about $200. About 800mbit/s firewire, that would be like ATA-100 (800mbits/8). Theoretically of course. Something else I just noticed when looking up the hard drive info is that a 100gb firewire drive is about $50 less than a usb drive of the same size. I wonder why that is.
About 90% of the HDD's out their have a top burst of around 40 to 45 MB/s. remember, thats burst speeds.
G5 rumor
Someone wrote:
I am much less concerned with Apple's marketshare than with the ability to do video effects and video compositing faster...much faster. Small speed bumps make a big difference when you're on deadline, and big speed increases make life easier all the time.
_________________
Where's my DPG5?
<br><br>
It is my understanding the G5 is multi-processor on-chip. Therefore the Mhz limits they are seeing are less of an issue in overall performance. It also means the combination of all CPU's being MP and a much faster bus will allow video feeds and manipulation to become much mre effortless. I see the new limitation as being swap and storage space issues making optical-RW drives essential in the future. I also see a return to even machines with alot of memory not keeping all work in that memory and a return to 80's style memory swap schemes.<br><br>Jerry
Someone wrote:
I am much less concerned with Apple's marketshare than with the ability to do video effects and video compositing faster...much faster. Small speed bumps make a big difference when you're on deadline, and big speed increases make life easier all the time.
_________________
Where's my DPG5?
<br><br>
It is my understanding the G5 is multi-processor on-chip. Therefore the Mhz limits they are seeing are less of an issue in overall performance. It also means the combination of all CPU's being MP and a much faster bus will allow video feeds and manipulation to become much mre effortless. I see the new limitation as being swap and storage space issues making optical-RW drives essential in the future. I also see a return to even machines with alot of memory not keeping all work in that memory and a return to 80's style memory swap schemes.<br><br>Jerry
No, latest reports say G5 will not be multi-core. Read it at http://www.macosrumors.com. That was probably just wishful thinking. Not that this it the final word, but multi-core in a consumer chip seems a little far-fetched for right now.
if so...
then there are an awful lot of people keeping a secret at apple and at motorola and in this business, that never happens
the IT field is the leakiest thing since a collander as witnessed by the "best kept" secret so far, the segway, which everybody who reads even a little bit knew what it was
but the segway was still very interesting to see when it was officially released and its potential is amazing
secrets getting out is something that steve jobs has a great way of handling...when there is a leak, then there is a buzz...and when there is a buzz, there is an audience...and when there is an audience, steve jobs delivers
that's the way it has been with him since he regained the top spot at apple
and now that apple puts stuff out between macworlds also (ibook dual usb model and slot loading combo drive in tibook), the momentum is potentially there for apple to get the finances back up and increase market share beyond five percent
that is needed and i am tired of people who think apple can operate efficiently in the highly competitive IT field catering just to the very, very small legion of mac faithful and also brag about having a twenty something dollar per share value and think that things are a-ok in the land of apple
if you have not noticed, we are officially in a recession and a real war that won't end anytime soon, so computers may not be the top item on everybody's shortened christmas list this year
then there are an awful lot of people keeping a secret at apple and at motorola and in this business, that never happens
the IT field is the leakiest thing since a collander as witnessed by the "best kept" secret so far, the segway, which everybody who reads even a little bit knew what it was
but the segway was still very interesting to see when it was officially released and its potential is amazing
secrets getting out is something that steve jobs has a great way of handling...when there is a leak, then there is a buzz...and when there is a buzz, there is an audience...and when there is an audience, steve jobs delivers
that's the way it has been with him since he regained the top spot at apple
and now that apple puts stuff out between macworlds also (ibook dual usb model and slot loading combo drive in tibook), the momentum is potentially there for apple to get the finances back up and increase market share beyond five percent
that is needed and i am tired of people who think apple can operate efficiently in the highly competitive IT field catering just to the very, very small legion of mac faithful and also brag about having a twenty something dollar per share value and think that things are a-ok in the land of apple
if you have not noticed, we are officially in a recession and a real war that won't end anytime soon, so computers may not be the top item on everybody's shortened christmas list this year
i didn't mean to sound so pessimistic
but the silicon valley is not doing as well as the rest of the nation right now, as usual
...except when there is a huge fad like dot.coms or the initial imac but those things are short lived
we should change the name of san jose to "short lived trends, usa" or "can't follow through, usa" or "we had a potentially great hockey team, usa" or my favorite, "we almost got the giants, usa"
but the silicon valley is not doing as well as the rest of the nation right now, as usual
...except when there is a huge fad like dot.coms or the initial imac but those things are short lived
we should change the name of san jose to "short lived trends, usa" or "can't follow through, usa" or "we had a potentially great hockey team, usa" or my favorite, "we almost got the giants, usa"
The videographer market needs a super large screen Ti book with internal raid and multi-firewire and gigawire. By offering perhaps 4 or so hard discs and a much larger flat form factor the benefits of portability and large screen and massive I/O and storage would be hard to resist.
They might only sell as many as the top end MP macs, but the price premium it would command would be impressive. It is also in line with current Apple strategy and compatible with existing boards, hardware and everything except cases.
Rocketman
Re: Forget the interface.
joey j, I have seen ATA100 hard drives (5400 AND 7200 rpm) that are very fast. Maxtor makes excellent drives with those interfaces, as well as ATA133. If the new Apple systems ship with either ATA100 or 133 interfaces for hard drives, I plan on getting a second drive of identical spec's and then (using OSX's native RAID option) striping them (RAID 0 I believe). That will make a drive that is 1-1/2 to 2 times the spec of a single drive, and with space equal to both drives combined.
ATA hard drive technology has been making advances hand over fist ever since they broke out of the ATA33 interface. To think that the ATA133 at 5400 rpm is not a nice drive is ridiculous. If it wan't a good interface Apple would still be using all SCSI and would not have adopted it. Never mind the cost savings, there would have been too many people compaining and they would have changed (same as with the keyboards when they started making the Pro line).
peace.
joey j, I have seen ATA100 hard drives (5400 AND 7200 rpm) that are very fast. Maxtor makes excellent drives with those interfaces, as well as ATA133. If the new Apple systems ship with either ATA100 or 133 interfaces for hard drives, I plan on getting a second drive of identical spec's and then (using OSX's native RAID option) striping them (RAID 0 I believe). That will make a drive that is 1-1/2 to 2 times the spec of a single drive, and with space equal to both drives combined.
ATA hard drive technology has been making advances hand over fist ever since they broke out of the ATA33 interface. To think that the ATA133 at 5400 rpm is not a nice drive is ridiculous. If it wan't a good interface Apple would still be using all SCSI and would not have adopted it. Never mind the cost savings, there would have been too many people compaining and they would have changed (same as with the keyboards when they started making the Pro line).
peace.
Rocketman...
So basically you're looking for a $6000 CinemaBook? Apple probably would if they appealed to more people. I personally wouldn't buy one if I had the money. Any bigger than about 15" and a portable becomes much less so.
So basically you're looking for a $6000 CinemaBook? Apple probably would if they appealed to more people. I personally wouldn't buy one if I had the money. Any bigger than about 15" and a portable becomes much less so.
Re: Rocketman...
Kaypro and companies like Grid used to sell "transportable" computers. These were largish over equipped boxes for applications requiring "on-site" work.
A Videographers does only on-site work. They dont need G5 speeds for image capture. They need I/O and viewing. Typically power is avail, if only a car battery.
As with all Apple hardware, the dedicated masses of fans will buy them for ego alone, but the people needing such a device will make Apple as prominent in videography as it is in publishing and education.
Market share is the thing.
When HDTV large screens came out, all the shows put them on TV. A Cinemabook would likely also get screen time.
My main point is that it can be done NOW with current boards and parts and only a new case.
Manufacturability is probably the primary driver for products at Apple. No decodehedron G5 macs
Rocketman
Kaypro and companies like Grid used to sell "transportable" computers. These were largish over equipped boxes for applications requiring "on-site" work.
A Videographers does only on-site work. They dont need G5 speeds for image capture. They need I/O and viewing. Typically power is avail, if only a car battery.
As with all Apple hardware, the dedicated masses of fans will buy them for ego alone, but the people needing such a device will make Apple as prominent in videography as it is in publishing and education.
Market share is the thing.
When HDTV large screens came out, all the shows put them on TV. A Cinemabook would likely also get screen time.
My main point is that it can be done NOW with current boards and parts and only a new case.
Manufacturability is probably the primary driver for products at Apple. No decodehedron G5 macs
Rocketman