G5 Specs for WWDC!

[mangoduck]

Here's a hint, mango... Apple will have to make at least some of these changes to keep up with consumer machines on the PC side. In order to maintain their position as a full-featured solution for computing, the macintosh platform has to adopt standards where possible.

here's a hint, too. what exactly did i say before? did i contradict anything you said just here? i said that it's not likely that apple will upgrade so many aspects at once. i'm not saying they won't, i'm not saying they can't, i'm not saying it's impossible, i'm not putting hard conclusive fact up against the speculation. i said it's not probable, as shown by apple's own history.

The G5 towers had an all new FSB (167mhz to 800-1000mhz), ASIC, motherboard (four RAM channels per processor, SATA controller, AGP 8x, PCI X), processor (1.42ghz duals to 2.0ghz duals), storage technology (PATA to SATA), RAM (PC2700 to PC3200), graphics card (Radeon 9000 AGP 4x to Radeon 9800 Pro AGP 8x), expandability (PCI to PCI-X), audio (analog to SPDIF in/out), optical drive (SuperDrive optional to standard).

Actually, the jump is pretty comparable if you at all look at the issues. "refine before you flame, please."

sata only counts once, ram speed bump to 3200 is no huge miracle, video card jump was more logical than industry-leading, and a standard superdrive is nice but certainly not huge considering it was available through the store before, albeit at a price.

conversely, the alleged specs for the new machine are not available in any other mac to date, nor even largely available in anything less than workstation class machines. you can't just hop over to dell or gateway and get a computer with pci express, or a 1.5ghz bus, or two dual layer capable dvd writer combos, or integrated high definition audio, or a fire gl series card. that last one seems especially big to me, moreso than the move from 9000 to 9800, since anything higher than the radeon has never been available for the mac. this represents more than a casual collaboration with ati.

rolleyes yourself.

however, did i not say it was close? actually this brings up another point.

3: would apple be likely (likely, mind you) to make such a large jump immediately after an equally uncommonly large one? don't misunderstand me, it would be nice if they did, but step back a minute.

Apple is in the business of making people say wow, [etc etc]

again, did i say factually that this rumor would not come to pass? i'm not arguing with you. we're on the same side. we both "fight" for apple, as it were. don't jump me for bringing a little realism into the conversation.

Maybe you should read his posts since those, because he's shown me that he made a couple of innocent mistakes and mistatements. Also, he's added meaningfully to the discussion, while you've mostly just trolled him for things others have already said.

i have read what he posted. did you notice that he admitted mistakes not before my two other posts? hence i have not replied to him since.

initially i replied to him in detail because his post was not only the first under mine, but the first that attempted to completely tromp what i said. it appeared to me that he was overreacting.

also, you're correcting me for correcting him, right after you pointed out that he said he was partly wrong? whose "side" do you think you're on? and all this after you spend several paragraphs yourself trying to tell my how i'm wrong?

everyone needs to settle the fsck (-y) down. we're talking about a rumor, here. is it beyond people to keep things in perspective? there's no reason why a thread like this should have approaching 200 replies. there's simply not much to discuss, and anything more is just arguing for the sake of argument. wanking, if you will, and don't kid yourselves.

 

[Multimedia]

I Read Somewhere 3 GHz 975 Yields Are Not Having The Same Problems As Slower 970FX

It *may* be possible. PPC 975 is on a different production line than the 970FX, and may not be suffering with the same problems. IBM was very good about their original PPC 970 production quotas.

I agree with another poster that the bottom-end unit specs are not quite right. I would think that the bottom-end unit would be either a Dual 2Ghz or 2.2Ghz PPC 970FX. (Shipping within weeks)

Then shipping in the fall would be the mid-range unit could be the 2.5Ghz or 2.6Ghz and the 3.0Ghz top-of-the-line with the PCI-X.

Yes. I Read Somewhere 3 GHz 975 Yields Are Not Having The Same Problems As Slower 970 Yields. This is why the dual 3 GHz G5 Systems may still come in on time. In my mind this means September-October as that was the real time the first G5's started arriving last Fall.

 

[thatwendigo]

here's a hint, too. what exactly did i say before? did i contradict anything you said just here? i said that it's not likely that apple will upgrade so many aspects at once. i'm not saying they won't, i'm not saying they can't, i'm not saying it's impossible, i'm not putting hard conclusive fact up against the speculation. i said it's not probable, as shown by apple's own history.

And I've shown that, at least least in the last revision, Apple took a serious jump from their previous line and moved into parity or surpassing the PC line once more. This goes for everything in the system especially now that some refurb customers are already getting 8x SuperDrives in their machines.

Whether or not your intention was to introduce some kind of "realism" to the discussion, your tone is explicitly negative and confrontational. I responded with a post that cut the floor out from under your objections. End of story.

sata only counts once, ram speed bump to 3200 is no huge miracle, video card jump was more logical than industry-leading, and a standard superdrive is nice but certainly not huge considering it was available through the store before, albeit at a price.

Your quibbling over SATA aside, I disagree with nearly everything you had to say. Apple moves up a RAM speed in their towers and it's "not a big deal" (after people have complained about this at length in the past that you like to bring up). The SuperDrive is made standard without negatively effecting the the price and that's not a big deal, either. Moving to an industry standard on graphics is a minor point, but it's measurable improvement.

Interesting that you have nothing to say about the rest of it. Apple revamped the towers from the ground up, and you sit there and belittle it. That's fine, but don't expect me to sit here and listen to you call it "reason."

conversely, the alleged specs for the new machine are not available in any other mac to date, nor even largely available in anything less than workstation class machines.

As I've already stated, Apple has lead the market or been an early adopter in more than once, and I see no reason to believe that they can't do it again. You're not paying attention to something that really matters - Apple has a positive cash balance they could use to cut deals. You're also sadly behind if you think that these technologies aren't about to become standard in other machines, even if it's held at the high end. It's good luck for us that the PowerMac has always been a high-end computer, huh?

you can't just hop over to dell or gateway and get a computer with pci express, or a 1.5ghz bus, or two dual layer capable dvd writer combos, or integrated high definition audio, or a fire gl series card.

1.0ghz Dual-Channel (effective 2.0ghz) HyperTransport on Athlon 64 chipset:
http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040505/
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipsets/display/20031113152821.html
http://www.thecrucible.ca/reviews/k8vdeluxe/

SiS will also offer two new I/O controllers in 2004. The new SiS965 will offer 8 USB 2.0 ports, PCI and 2 PCI Express x1 connectors, 2-channel integrated Parallel ATA-33/66/100/133 controller and 4 Serial ATA-150 connectors with RAID support. Among standard features we should mention 10/100/1000Mb/s Ethernet, Home PNA 2.0, 6-channel audio-solution, MC’97 Modem and AC’97 Audio. In addition, it will boast with FireWire (IEEE1394) support. SiS966 adds yet another pair of PCI Express x1 ports as well as Intel’s Azalia audio.​

Dual-Layer DVDs on sale, media released in Japan and coming to US:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116228,00.asp
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.html?i=2045
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INT...nSOOvDC41umEtj8GioublsMqVsE=?CategoryName=cpu

Sony PC with Dual-Layer DVD-RW - Also to include option of up to 1.6TB of HD space, passive cooling, PCI-Express graphics, and 4 independent SATA ports.

FSBs for Dual Processors over 1.0ghz in production machines, with pro graphics cards:
Alienware "Roswell" Opteron on HT with nVidia Quadro FX graphics, starting at $2,697 (Single processor) and ranging to $4,976 (Dual)
Alienware "Ozma" Opteron on HT with M-Audio Delta system, ATI FireGL graphics, starting at $2,271 (Single) to $4,265 (Double)
IBM Intellistation - Opteron and HT, nVidia QuadroFX

Dual Processor 1.0ghz+ FSB workstation with high-def audio:
Alienware "Ozma" Opteron on HT with M-Audio Delta system, ATI FireGL graphics, starting at $2,271 (Single) to $4,265 (Double)

rolleyes yourself.

Care to retract that?

3: would apple be likely (likely, mind you) to make such a large jump immediately after an equally uncommonly large one? don't misunderstand me, it would be nice if they did, but step back a minute.

They have to. There is little choice at this point, unless they're planning on trying to hold on at the current level and reverse all progress to this point. I think that Jobs is arrogant and makes mistakes sometimes, but the man isn't stupid and he has to realize what going back on that announcement would mean in terms of ship-jumpers.

initially i replied to him in detail because his post was not only the first under mine, but the first that attempted to completely tromp what i said. it appeared to me that he was overreacting.

Given your response to me, I sympathize with him.

also, you're correcting me for correcting him, right after you pointed out that he said he was partly wrong? whose "side" do you think you're on? and all this after you spend several paragraphs yourself trying to tell my how i'm wrong?

I'm on the side of reason, and that's it. He's not attacked me, not attacked anyone else unreasonably, and admits with he's wrong. It's that simple.

there's no reason why a thread like this should have approaching 200 replies. there's simply not much to discuss, and anything more is just arguing for the sake of argument.

There's apparently plenty to discuss, because we're still going. In fact, I just dropped quite a lot of material on you that you're apparently ignorant of. Imagine that.

wanking, if you will, and don't kid yourselves.

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't, but leave those of us who do want to alone. To paraphrase the late, great Thomas Jefferson, "It bothers me not what another man believes. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

 

[rog]

Too little, too late, too expensive

Well let's hope they make the prices $1499, $1999, and $2499 at the absolute max. Even then they'd be very pricey and not likely to spur sales. So of course that means Apple will prices them drastically more expensive. dual 3 GHZ. Sorry, but a 50% increase in a year is still just ho-hum, and does not justify a price increase, especially since the G5 was not the PC killer it was supposed to be. Even at 3 GHz, it will lag PCs on quite a few benchmarks. Looks like it's out of the frying pan, into the fire with the jump from Motorola to IBM.

 

[Sun Baked]

here's a hint, too. what exactly did i say before? did i contradict anything you said just here? i said that it's not likely that apple will upgrade so many aspects at once. i'm not saying they won't, i'm not saying they can't, i'm not saying it's impossible, i'm not putting hard conclusive fact up against the speculation. i said it's not probable, as shown by apple's own history.

Apple typically likes to keep a chipset around 12-18 months to get some use out of the R&D (heck the original KeyLargo was introduced in 1999 and is still being sold), and the features of this machine are locked into the chipset...

Memory Controller -- AGP Port, DDR Memory, HT port, 2 CPU eBus connectors.

HT Tunnel -- most likely AMD sourced, provide PCI/PCI-X

KeyLargo2 -- HT port to connect through tunnel to Memory controller, all the I/O -- USB, FW, SATA, ATA, Audio, etc.

---

If Apple changes stuff on a chip (the 3 above) it'll be a leap and be around for awhile. Apple didn't change the G4s for so long, because drastic changes would kill OS 9 bootability, which DDR and USB2 finally did.

So if Apple uses a new HT Tunnel from AMD, it'll be PCI-Express and most likely pre-announced like most AMD stuff. No need for them to keep it secret for Apple's sake.

A new memory controller would most likely add DDR2, PCI-Express at the same time (and current HT upgrades, newest buses if needed) -- since it'll be around for awhile.

But don't expect KeyLargo to change quick, extended yes though PCI.

everyone needs to settle the fsck (-y) down. we're talking about a rumor, here. is it beyond people to keep things in perspective? there's no reason why a thread like this should have approaching 200 replies. there's simply not much to discuss, and anything more is just arguing for the sake of argument. wanking, if you will, and don't kid yourselves.

Actually it's probably NOT a rumor, but speculation.

If you look at the way Apple does R&D, you might be close with some of the speculation. But this may NOT be too realistic if they feel Apple will add PCI-Express video, and not change the rest of the memory controller (by incorporating DDR2).

 

[MrSugar]

Well let's hope they make the prices $1499, $1999, and $2499 at the absolute max. Even then they'd be very pricey and not likely to spur sales. So of course that means Apple will prices them drastically more expensive. dual 3 GHZ. Sorry, but a 50% increase in a year is still just ho-hum, and does not justify a price increase, especially since the G5 was not the PC killer it was supposed to be. Even at 3 GHz, it will lag PCs on quite a few benchmarks. Looks like it's out of the frying pan, into the fire with the jump from Motorola to IBM.

are you being serious? Please tell me this post was sarcasm. If IBM and Apple do hit 3ghz, it will be one of the most amazing things that has happened to Apple.

 

[dopefiend]

If IBM and Apple do hit 3ghz, it will be one of the most amazing things that has happened to Apple.

Nah, not really.

You know it will only be a few months after at the most that the PC world would catch up.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Well let's hope they make the prices $1499, $1999, and $2499 at the absolute max. Even then they'd be very pricey and not likely to spur sales. So of course that means Apple will prices them drastically more expensive. dual 3 GHZ. Sorry, but a 50% increase in a year is still just ho-hum, and does not justify a price increase, especially since the G5 was not the PC killer it was supposed to be. Even at 3 GHz, it will lag PCs on quite a few benchmarks. Looks like it's out of the frying pan, into the fire with the jump from Motorola to IBM.

You're making no sense here. $2499 max??? Why? I can easily outdo 2500 pricing a P4 Extreme system. Or on a dual Opteron or Xeon system. Pricey is a relative term. What's pricey to a consumer is "cheap" to some Professionals. An audio engineer won't bat an eye at paying $3500 for a Mic preamp.

Folks we need to be looking in terms of market. The reality is that consumers now regard a $1499 system as expensive while Pros are looking to gain the most productivity at prices they can justify.

A 50% increase in speed is HUGE when considering the pipeline length of the processor hasn't changed. In fact rumor has it that the 3ghz model could be based on POWER5 tech which would be more efficient on a clock for clock basis.

Rog no one called the G5 a PC Killer but you.

In fact I'd prefer that Apple create a system well appointed for $3499. It should be loaded with memory and have a top flight GPU. It should have two hard drives for RAID potential.

Peope that need Dual 3Ghz computers are willing to pay for them because odds are they own companies and this is a business purchase.

 

[thatwendigo]

Well let's hope they make the prices $1499, $1999, and $2499 at the absolute max. Even then they'd be very pricey and not likely to spur sales. So of course that means Apple will prices them drastically more expensive. dual 3 GHZ. Sorry, but a 50% increase in a year is still just ho-hum, and does not justify a price increase, especially since the G5 was not the PC killer it was supposed to be. Even at 3 GHz, it will lag PCs on quite a few benchmarks. Looks like it's out of the frying pan, into the fire with the jump from Motorola to IBM.

Riiiiight.

Alienware Roswell 4500 Extreme
XP Professional
Dual AMD Opteron 250 2.4ghz
Matrox RT.X100 Xtreme Video Processing
Enermax 550W PSU
nVidia QuadroFX 3000 256MB
1GB PC3200 ECC (2x512MB)
2x250GB SATA RAID 0
Plextor PX-708A 8x DVD+/-RW
SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum

Cost: $7,042

Who's expensive? Granted, about $3,000 of that is video card and video equipment, but still... Ouch. A 3.0ghz 975 will likely smoke the 2.4ghz Opteron, considering that 2.0ghz 970 can hang with it on some things, especially since all number point to a roughly 40% clock-to-clock performance increase between the Power4 and Power5.

Looks like it's time for baseless commentary.

Nah, not really.

You know it will only be a few months after at the most that the PC world would catch up.

Because, you know, Intel's come so far in the last year... I mean, Apple must be smarting after their competition introduced a whole new line of process... No, wait. I guess it was when they jumped 50% of their clo... No... It must have been when they dropped their flagship line after only bumping it 200mhz since the G5 was debuted.

Yep. Those crafty PC chipmakers, showing Apple up hardcore, when all they have is a massive industry that will cooperate easily on parts. I shed so many tears for them...

 

[mangoduck]

And I've shown that, at least least in the last revision, Apple took a serious jump from their previous line and moved into parity or surpassing the PC line once more. This goes for everything in the system [...]

i have to seriously question whether you're reading or blindly replying. i myself said already what you just said. apple just made a big jump. that is why another big jump isn't likely in the very next revision.

Whether or not your intention was to introduce some kind of "realism" to the discussion, your tone is explicitly negative and confrontational. I responded with a post that cut the floor out from under your objections. End of story.

if my tone is confrontational, it is because yours is. you may deny it, but excerpts such as the above embody it fairly well. as to whether you "cut the floor" out from under me, and whether the "story" is over, that is your opinion alone.

As I've already stated, Apple has lead the market or been an early adopter in more than once, and I see no reason to believe that they can't do it again. You're not paying attention to something that really matters - Apple has a positive cash balance they could use to cut deals. You're also sadly behind if you think that these technologies aren't about to become standard in other machines, even if it's held at the high end.

that's what? about to become standard? not are standard, but about to become. meaning not here yet.

what deals are those? just because there's surplus cash doesn't mean they're ready to spend it. the only reason one has cash is because one hasn't spent it already, and it says nothing of one's likeliness to use it. i don't think money is burning a hole in jobs' pocket.

i too believe that they can and will impress again. but it is probable now? does it make any sense, from a buisnessman's perspective? above all, long term sales are the key to company survival and profit. wow factor is valuable as well, but why not wow them twice or even three times? why waste all your ammo when there's such a long road ahead (in terms of the it market) before the next "big thing", whatever that may be? i say again that it's great if this is the dawn of a new era for product revisions. i agree with you here. hooray, huzzah, and all kinds of merry-making. just don't count on it. don't get yourself worked up about what may be, never considering the alternative, only to be shattered and bitter when less than all of it happens. i've seen it time and time again, people in a tizzy because apple didn't deliver the fancy goods people wanted, and who do they blame? apple. all because they took less-then-credible rumors at face value.

[bunch of urls]

do you realize that none of those urls address what you were trying to address? you went to manufacturers and third party resellers and compiled a list of parts and bto systems, many of them quite costly, and for nought.

what i said was, you can't hop over to dell or gateway and buy a machine with many of these rumored g5 specs, of which i listed some. you seem to pick your fights strangely, because i don't see what was so offensive about this statement.

Your quibbling over SATA aside, I disagree with nearly everything you had to say. Apple moves up a RAM speed in their towers and it's "not a big deal" (after people have complained about this at length in the past that you like to bring up [what now? you lost me here. who are you talking about?]). The SuperDrive is made standard without negatively effecting the the price and that's not a big deal, either. Moving to an industry standard on graphics is a minor point, but it's measurable improvement.

Interesting that you have nothing to say about the rest of it. Apple revamped the towers from the ground up, and you sit there and belittle it. That's fine, but don't expect me to sit here and listen to you call it "reason."

is a small ram speed bump a big deal in light of the jump from standard sdram to ddr in the g4s, the previous major ram-related revision? is incorporating the 9800, a card available for purchase elsewhere, a big deal compared to incorporating a workstation-class 16x graphics chipset that has never been available for the mac to date? what about doubling the hard drive and optical drive bays to four and two, respectively? is revamping the tower's form factor again to make room for the extra components not impressive?

i'm not belittling the current g5s. i'm comparing them to the rumored specs to illustrate how close they are in terms of significance. this is all i said to start with, and if you've read this and understood it, how can you not concede that such a new machine would be at least in the same ballpark as the g5's introduction? i find it interesting that you've completely avoided this point. you choose to argue semantics instead of addressing the source, being my first post in this thread.

I think that Jobs is arrogant and makes mistakes sometimes, but the man isn't stupid and he has to realize what going back on that announcement would mean in terms of ship-jumpers.

what announcement? last i checked, this was a rumor from a french mac site. don't tell me you've been arguing all this time with the wrong idea because you misread something.

I just dropped quite a lot of material on you that you're apparently ignorant of. Imagine that.

what material? the urls that have little relevance?

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't, but leave those of us who do want to alone. To paraphrase the late, great Thomas Jefferson, "It bothers me not what another man believes. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

oh, but it does pick your pocket so to speak, at the very least. it bothers you enough that you're willing to sit and reply repeatedly, making quotes and fetching links. how long did it take to assemble that list? no matter that it didn't relate to the discussion -- all you've proven is that various products are available for purchase somewhere, not that one "whole widget" type manufacturer offers all of them standard -- you've got to include the text anyway, because we all know the more text you paste and the more quotes you quote the more awe-inspiring your case will appear. and links! i am mesmerized by your liney clickable blue characters and i submit.

also, i noticed that you took great care to list every single change that you could think of between the g4 and g5 systems, even going so far as to list sata controllers separate from sata drives. please. they go together. you don't have one without the other, now do you. in my earlier posts i mentioned the "revamped motherboard" as i put it, which covers all these bases; bus speed hand in hand with memory speed, expansion, and so on.

but you don't want to sacrifice any detail, no matter how small, that could make your argument look better. whatever it is that you're arguing about at this point, because it certainly doesn't involve computers. this fight has become personal for you. it's not about apple, it's not about the rumor at the top of the thread, it's about making the other guy admit defeat and give up. you don't care why you're debating, it just feels good to debate. no, for you there's no giving up, no limit to how long you'll go or what you'll say, no stop to blatantly provoking your opponent, but what you fail to realize is that for you there's no real point anymore.

my very first post on ths topic was a devil's advocate's view. pessimistic? absolutely! i feel that every argument should have all parties brought to the stand and represented equally, ragardless of plausability. my point was quite plausible indeed, i thought, because it reflects conservative and resourceful buisness practice. throughout my tenure here, the conservative view in regards to rumors has always been one that is under-represented due to the boisterous nature of the crowd.

so it seems that the roles have reversed: by continuing to debate, you support the statement from the french mac site as near-factual at the least. by continuing, you're saying that you'd rather support unverified speculations -- they're on page two for a reason, folks -- instead of using repeated history as a reference point. i believe that makes you the devil's advocate. was that your intention to start with?

 

[MrSugar]

Nah, not really.

You know it will only be a few months after at the most that the PC world would catch up.

It would still be a huge step. A 50% increase in clock in one years time, Apple would truly have taken a dominent role in the Top End market if this happened. Right now they have a good computer setup that competes, but a 3ghz G5 would blow them back on top, not to mention show that this generation of chips really does have legs.

I honestly don't know if I think it will happen or not, but it would not be something to mock.

 

[Mav451]

...
Because, you know, Intel's come so far in the last year... I mean, Apple must be smarting after their competition introduced a whole new line of process... No, wait. I guess it was when they jumped 50% of their clo... No... It must have been when they dropped their flagship line after only bumping it 200mhz since the G5 was debuted.

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce the PC industry based on Intel's current developments alone. While Intel had success with its Northwood the past 2 years, I believe we are in that 2-year period that AMD will enjoy its overall performance crown--this is the beauty of having two big CPU manufacturers for the PC.

Also, it should be interesting to note that AMD had the SINGLE cpu config of the Opteron 250 (2.4ghz) in the FX-53 since March! It is INTERESTING b/c it took nearly 3 months after the FX-53 to release the Opteron 2-way/4-way counterparts. This is the reason I doubt the 3.0Ghz G5's are even close to coming out. The Opteron and G5 cpus have been close in clockspeed/performance--and the shared IBM support should certainly also play a part in predicting where this goes. Certainly 2.2, 2.4 are practically guaranteed. This is why I find it funny that you mention a 3.0G5 will smoke a 2.4--of COURSE it will! Heck, a 3.0 Opteron (256?) would smoke a 2.4 Opteron (250) too...kind of a moot point -_-

*This is why i say it, time and time again, that IF

Apple sticks by Steve jobs claimed, that 3ghz will be here by June--and I have still yet to see a quote/.mov clip of this statement, (can someone find/make a clip of this statement?)

THEN

Apple will truly have the "world's fastest, most powerful personal computer".

 

[MrSugar]

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce the PC industry based on Intel's current developments alone. While Intel had success with its Northwood the past 2 years, I believe we are in that 2-year period that AMD will enjoy its overall performance crown--this is the beauty of having two big CPU manufacturers for the PC.

Also, it should be interesting to note that AMD had the SINGLE cpu config of the Opteron 250 (2.4ghz) in the FX-53 since March! It is INTERESTING b/c it took nearly 3 months after the FX-53 to release the Opteron 2-way/4-way counterparts. This is the reason I doubt the 3.0Ghz G5's are even close to coming out. The Opteron and G5 cpus have been close in clockspeed/performance--and the shared IBM support should certainly also play a part in predicting where this goes. Certainly 2.2, 2.4 are practically guaranteed. This is why I find it funny that you mention a 3.0G5 will smoke a 2.4--of COURSE it will! Heck, a 3.0 Opteron (256?) would smoke a 2.4 Opteron (250) too...kind of a moot point -_-

*This is why i say it, time and time again, that IF

Apple sticks by Steve jobs claimed, that 3ghz will be here by June--and I have still yet to see a quote/.mov clip of this statement, (can someone find/make a clip of this statement?)

THEN

Apple will truly have the "world's fastest, most powerful personal computer".

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc03/

move to 1:52 minutes in, he has a whole slide dedicated for it. Right before he shows the G5 video.

 

[gerardrj]

WATER COOLED CPU TECHNOLOGY IS REAL AND HAS EXISTED FOR AT LEAST 2 YEARS NOW. IT DOES NOT GET ANYTHING WET.

Sorry, you're a little off. Water cooling technology for CPUs has existed for at least 3 decades. IBM used it in their mainframes. They used a liquid coolant (water and antifreeze) that was circulated out to a chiller (centrifugal I think). They actually had problems with the water jacket getting so cold that water condensed out of the atmosphere and dripped on to components so they had to turn down the cooling system.

Water cooling is not new, it was not invented by modders. In fact using water cooling on the new Powermac systems would be like the technology coming home again.

 

[Mav451]

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc03/

move to 1:52 minutes in, he has a whole slide dedicated for it. Right before he shows the G5 video.

Haha, ok, that was fast. Thanks.

 

[bradz_id]

Unfortunately, Apple need to release fool-proof products and water cooling is far from fool proof.

There IS a practical solution though:

There is room to move in the G5 so increase the length of the CPU heatsink and make it 120mm x 120mm and seal 120mm fans at each side of it.

AND DEFINATELY make the heatsink out of copper and just whack the same pretty face on top of it.

GUARANTEE all heat problems will go away.

 

[Black Badger]

Small indicator something new is coming....

Apple are now letting ADC premier & select members to purchase up to 5 1.6 G5s through the ADC Hardware Discount Program without affecting their anual discount limits.

Looks like they are trying to dump a load of the 1.6s

 

[rdowns]

*This is why i say it, time and time again, that IF

Apple sticks by Steve jobs claimed, that 3ghz will be here by June--and I have still yet to see a quote/.mov clip of this statement, (can someone find/make a clip of this statement?)

THEN

Apple will truly have the "world's fastest, most powerful personal computer".

Here's the clip from his keynote.

edit: Oops, won't let me upload a .mov file.

 

[Frobozz]

Well let's hope they make the prices $1499, $1999, and $2499 at the absolute max. Even then they'd be very pricey and not likely to spur sales. So of course that means Apple will prices them drastically more expensive. dual 3 GHZ. Sorry, but a 50% increase in a year is still just ho-hum, and does not justify a price increase, especially since the G5 was not the PC killer it was supposed to be. Even at 3 GHz, it will lag PCs on quite a few benchmarks. Looks like it's out of the frying pan, into the fire with the jump from Motorola to IBM.

where to start... I hope you aren't trying to imply a dual 3.0 GHz 975 would lag any PC in benchmarks. LOL. I know none of us know how fast they will be until we see the benchmarks, but let's assume it's roughly linear over the course of one year ago. A 50% speed increase in a year would be rougly 45% faster than Intel has managed in a year (3.2 --> 3.4), and 33% faster than AMD has managed (2.0 --> 2.4).

I don't think anyone here suggests that Apple will increase the cost of the PowerMac. In fact, at the last earnings call, Apple suggested they would lower the price point if they were not able to bring volume up by (I believe) 10%.

Maybe I'm the exception, but $2799 - $2999 for the dual 3.0 GHz Mac (with all it comes with) would be a fair price. It's not a bargain... but pro machines aren't really meant to compete heavily on price. It's not the major sale point. Power is, and I believe they will be the fastest desktops without contention.

 

[Trekkie]

Not gonna happen bro, this is more of a PC sector type thing.

get a welding torch out and cut open some of the heat sinks on IBM systems. They are full of water at 50% air PSI to better transfer the heat along the heat sink.

 

[Ysean]

No offense...

Yes, Sorrry, I ment PCI Express. I am actually very well technically informed, sorry that I mis re-called a name. Maybe you should understand this site is to inform people, and not to insult them about their information. That being said, thanks for the correction...

I just chose your reply to comment on out of others that were calling it PCI-Extreme as well. I wasn't trying to attack you. But, the misconception that PCI-Express is JUST a new video 'connector' interface was still way off base. Again, PCI-Express is designed as a replacement for traditional PCI and PCI-X. It just has the bandwidth needed to support modern video cards as well and is why video cards are being manufactured targetted to the interface.

 

[benpatient]

no way is this accurate.

These are just some made-up numbers...Guess you can't fault dreamers from dreaming, though...

 

[thatwendigo]

mangoduck:

I am forgoing my traditional method of reply, since it seems that you want to try to draw me into a flamewar by picking and choosing what of my reply you'd like to respond to. You brought the conflict into this, and I'm ending it now.

My point is that you came in here and started attacking people for supposedly having false beliefs about what Apple would do for the update of the G5, which we're all hoping will be at WWDC in a matter of weeks. What you don't seem to grasp is that I am merely engaging in a practice known as speculation and research, where I show off what might be there and then talk about what it could mean if it is. At this point, I caution everyone and anyone who reads my posts not to pin their hopes on any of this happens - because it is a substantial jump, one similar to the introduction of the G5 - but I also point out a significant fact. The PowerPC 970 does not look like a chip that was intended to be Apple's long-term strategy, but more like a holdover, a stopgap to allow people to stay on the platform while the ream deal was prepared.

At this point, we can all hem and haw over what might or might not be happening in Cupertino, but nobody knows for certain. However, we do know where the PC industry is going, especially the ones that tend to lead the way in new technology (which Dell and Gateway do not, as they're low-to-middle end computing), and it includes an awful lot of my wish list for the next PowerMacs. The pace of technology is increasing, and Apple is going to need to follow along or they'll be left behind, no matter who their chip partner is. They have around $5 billion in the bank that could be used to cement ties to manufacturers, create contracts to deliver things like top-end GPUs on parity with the PC world, though we don't know if they will.

I have addressed every one of your points, other people have seen me address them, and I will do so again right here, briefly, because it appears that you missed out somewhere in my post:

1. You cannot buy machines at Dell or Gateway that do these things because Dell and Gateway are not bleeding-edge companies and never have been. They're primarily low-market, consumer, and business suppliers, not creative studio machines, and Dell is notoriously hostile to AMD (who is the source of over half of what I pointed out). If you want FSBs over 1.5ghz, you have to go to AMD and possibly Apple/IBM. If you want dual-processor systems that are of the more efficient RISC design, you have to go AMD or Apple/IBM. The point was not "offensive," except in your attempt to apply a market that doesn't fit the model at all.
2. You continuously sidestep my main points and commit the same kind of semantic quibbling that you accuse me of. The important parts of the G5 revision are technological, not specific parts. To repeatedly point out the Radeon 9800 as sub-par is like pointing at a Seagate HD rather than the fact that Apple now has SATA cotrollers, since the whole thrust of that was the adoption of AGP 8x, not the card that is in the slot. Also, if you're going to be knocking on Apple for the 16x graphics chipset, you need to attack PC OEMs, since nobody has PCI-Express yet, and there has never been a card for it in any computer. Your point cuts both ways, and therefore has no bearing on the dicussion.
3. Changing form factor would be impressive, and I never denied it. You make allegations over things that I've never said, and in fact, which I wouldn't say.
4. The URLs that I put up are all illustrative of the fact that these technologies you decry are all in machines that are currently for sale, or coming to the market in the next month. Every single one shows a product that is current, available, and several of them show workstations that incorporate many of the things that you're saying Apple won't do with the G5 revisions. You may refuse to accept that my points are not only relevant, but basically damning to your argument that these things won't be done in the near future and that nobody offers machines with the technology, but that does not make it any less so in the long run. The AMD FSB is at 1.6ghz right now and moving to 2.0ghz, Sony is selling DVD-RW dual-layer drives and their computers are beings built with them, high-level audio is about to be built into Intel Chipsets (Azalia) and can be had on other system from the get-go (not BTO), and Alienware sells a $4000-$5000 computer with pro-graphics, pro-audio, dual Opterons, and most of what you said Apple wouldn't do.

In short, I read your post, understood it perfectly, and the question is now where you're getting these things that you're accusing me of. I reply at length because detail and precision are important. Yes, mistakes creep in and I admit when I make them, but you have yet to do anything other than attack and attempt to provoke. When you give short shrift to the changes by summarizing them, I often find it quite worthwhile to point out just how expansive and sweeping such things can be, because people often don't think of them on their own. If you were at all familiar with my post history, I am typically of a very conservative demeanor in terms of what might happen with computing, but I also don't restrain my speculation when I talk about what might be possible. This whole thread is about what might be seen, and that means that it ought to cover everything within reason, not just what might be in line with the past.

If this discussion is personal, it's because you're committing argumentum ad hominem, specifically of the abusive and circumstantial varieties. As such, we're done here. If you can discuss this without assaulting me personally, I'd be glad to continue talking about the issue, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to attacks made in the very tone that I'm being accused of.

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce the PC industry based on Intel's current developments alone. While Intel had success with its Northwood the past 2 years, I believe we are in that 2-year period that AMD will enjoy its overall performance crown--this is the beauty of having two big CPU manufacturers for the PC.

I was joking, Mav.

It is INTERESTING b/c it took nearly 3 months after the FX-53 to release the Opteron 2-way/4-way counterparts. This is the reason I doubt the 3.0Ghz G5's are even close to coming out. The Opteron and G5 cpus have been close in clockspeed/performance--and the shared IBM support should certainly also play a part in predicting where this goes.

Say what you like about the Opteron, it's not a Power5, and that's what we've been hearing whispers about the next chip coming from. For one thing, I agree with you that AMD is moving ahead of Intel once more because of the help from IBM and their massive library of IP and technology, but that doesn't mean that Big Blue is going to be stupid and give away the farm. They're going to have some tricks that are for their machines and their products so that they can have an edge over the competition, and I firmly believe that the Power5 is a good example of that. If the 975 contains the on-die memory controller, even if it's only a single-core, it will go a long way towards catapulting the chip pasts PC competition, since one place that Opterons beat the G5 is in memory intensive tasks.

The other biggie will be getting a pro-level graphics card. Almost every CineBench and 3D test I've seen that has a PC beating the G5 is done with a higher-level GPU (Radeon 9800XT, FireGL, or QuadroFX, to be specific).

 

[benpatient]

An audio engineer won't bat an eye at paying $3500 for a Mic preamp.

what world are you on? The most expensive commercially available mic pre I'm aware of is 1500 dollars.

I'd certainly bat an eye at paying 230% sales tax!

 

[.a]

... nice hint at the new apple motion page, that there are coming new graphic-cards ... though, everybody knows, there will come new and better graphic-cards to the mac - the funny thing is just, that apple hinted to it, what is rather unusual for apple
.a