Garmin Fenix 7 pro and Apple Watch Ultra

[torbjornhb]

I never understood why people say Garmin Connect is bad and overwhelming. You can set up the front page at your own wish, and you don't have to dig into the deeper days of you don't want to.

Many people think Polar Flow is a great app, but that's actually outdated and contains very little days compared to Garmin. And that's also why it seems so simple...

 

[bsmr]

yeah, I never worried about closing my rings. Just didn’t seem important to me.

But it's not that easy, as it's always and everywhere within the Apple cosmos.

 

[Howard2k]

Have you ever watched a Fitness+ Video from Apple.... It's always rings, rings, rings and close your rings... This is getting quite annoying. My wife wanted to use Fitness+ but stops it after the first session because she's getting annoyed by that 'ring speech' of Apple.

I haven’t. I don’t use the rings for motivation. I know some do though, and I get why Apple pushes them, it’s a differentiator. I can see it getting tiresome though.

 

[Zelegorm]

I prefer Tredict or runalyze for data analysis. Much more reliable and user friendly and more advanced than this garmin connect crap. And especially not platform dependent. Same for Athlytics .

 

[Indianwin2001]

I prefer Tredict or runalyze for data analysis. Much more reliable and user friendly and more advanced than this garmin connect crap. And especially not platform dependent. Same for Athlytics .

Athlytic is not accurate unless you turn on afib. Even than it gave unrealistic numbers. Apple should not measure HRV during the daytime. There's a reason EliteHRV has you do it first thing in the morning. Garmin measures it constantly during the night, Apple takes 2 or 3 readings at night.

 

[xDKP]

Athlytic is not accurate unless you turn on afib. Even than it gave unrealistic numbers. Apple should not measure HRV during the daytime. There's a reason EliteHRV has you do it first thing in the morning. Garmin measures it constantly during the night, Apple takes 2 or 3 readings at night.

Why not during the day? I just keep track of Training Today on my watch, but mostly just listening to my body for recovery needs

 

[Zelegorm]

Why not during the day? I just keep track of Training Today on my watch, but mostly just listening to my body for recovery needs

Athlytic is not accurate unless you turn on afib. Even than it gave unrealistic numbers. Apple should not measure HRV during the daytime. There's a reason EliteHRV has you do it first thing in the morning. Garmin measures it constantly during the night, Apple takes 2 or 3 readings at night.

For me it’s way more realistic than Garmins value. Garmin is filtering high values. It’s not accurate at all. During the night if you are dreaming you will have spikes. They are missing completely. Only because you are measuring more points that doesn’t mean that it’s more accurate. My measuring was done during a phase I was in the hospital.

Yes it’s true. You have to turn on afib. That’s all. The rest is much better than garmin is doing.

Body battery does not match my feeling at all. Athlytic does. Athyltic can grab even different sources like oura. Garmin? Nope. Way better possibilities on the AWU

Btw. The sleep phases are way more accurate on the AWU too. Proven by myself in a sleep lab

In German there is a good phrase: „Wer viel misst, der misst viel Mist“

That’s the best description for the garmin

 

[Indianwin2001]

Why not during the day? I just keep track of Training Today on my watch, but mostly just listening to my body for recovery needs

Too many distractions during the day. It's not accurate with distractions. Google it for more information. Training today is good and listening to your body is always more important than anything any watch can tell you.

 

[richxps]

Does anyone also wear a whoop band ? Curious if the Athlytic app is just as good.

 

[Zelegorm]

Does anyone also wear a whoop band ? Curious if the Athlytic app is just as good.

Athlytic + training today is much better than whoop or garmin in my case. I canceled my subscription already last year

 

[Indianwin2001]

Athlytic + training today is much better than whoop or garmin in my case. I canceled my subscription already last year

I find Garmin MUCH better than whoop. Athlytic and Training Today are not as accurate for me as Garmin as to the way my body feels.

 

[Zelegorm]

The problem with Garmin is
1. the bad garmin hardware. The heart rate and HRV readings are much more worse than on the Apple Watch. **** in. **** out

2. the algorithm is very simple on the garmin. If you have a stressful working day but you are sitting the whole day the HRV is lower than usual. The mental stress does not mean that you are not ready to train. It’s the opposite.

3. If Garmins algorithm does not work for you then you are stuck. With training today you are free to experiment with details. Or you can chose a different app that works for you. Not possible with the Garmins.

The next thing is: What will you do with that information?

1. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling bad: I am sure you will go out for the planned run

2. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling good. Congratulations

Summary: the crap will not change your choice when you are feeling good

3. when you are feeling bad and watch is telling you that you are feeling bad. Congratulations.

4. When you are feeling bad and the dumb algorithm is telling you that you are feeling good. I think you will not go out for running.

Summary: Useless crap

 

[Monkswhiskers]

The problem with Garmin is
1. the bad garmin hardware. The heart rate and HRV readings are much more worse than on the Apple Watch. **** in. **** out

2. the algorithm is very simple on the garmin. If you have a stressful working day but you are sitting the whole day the HRV is lower than usual. The mental stress does not mean that you are not ready to train. It’s the opposite.

3. If Garmins algorithm does not work for you then you are stuck. With training today you are free to experiment with details. Or you can chose a different app that works for you. Not possible with the Garmins.

The next thing is: What will you do with that information?

1. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling bad: I am sure you will go out for the planned run

2. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling good. Congratulations

Summary: the crap will not change your choice when you are feeling good

3. when you are feeling bad and watch is telling you that you are feeling bad. Congratulations.

4. When you are feeling bad and the dumb algorithm is telling you that you are feeling good. I think you will not go out for running.

Summary: Useless crap

This is the thing. Apple only seem to implement things when they are generally tried and tested. I think the borderline exception is blood oxygen which is a big more random imho, I think that is more down to the sampling conditions rather than the sensor itself.
I think a lot of these recovery metrics are still within the realms of ‘bunkem’ and when Apple do eventually come out with their own version it can be taken a lot more seriously.

 

[Zelegorm]

There is absolutely no science behind those Garmin algorithms. If you are training with a good coach the conversation is always: Ignore the Garmin crap. It starts with the training status and ends with the running recommendations. It's marketing. Nothing more.

If you want a real training system get a stryd instead. With real modeling. Science. Real race predictions (not the completely useless ones from Garmin).

It's better to have a honest watch. Apple is telling me after a while about "trends". That's valid. Your resting heart rate is decreasing ... and so on. That's a real sign that something has changed in your body. Not the far from science Garmin algorithms which will not work for 90% of the people.

Remember the words from nearly all coaches: Ignore the Garmin crap recommendations...

 

[Indianwin2001]

There is absolutely no science behind those Garmin algorithms. If you are training with a good coach the conversation is always: Ignore the Garmin crap. It starts with the training status and ends with the running recommendations. It's marketing. Nothing more.

If you want a real training system get a stryd instead. With real modeling. Science. Real race predictions (not the completely useless ones from Garmin).

It's better to have a honest watch. Apple is telling me after a while about "trends". That's valid. Your resting heart rate is decreasing ... and so on. That's a real sign that something has changed in your body. Not the far from science Garmin algorithms which will not work for 90% of the people.

Remember the words from nearly all coaches: Ignore the Garmin crap recommendations...

No science? Go read Firstbeats white papers on every metric Garmin uses. Reading is knowledge.

 

[Zelegorm]

Show me the paper where there is a statement that the algorithms can be used for everyone for training planning or even one paper about the correlation of HRV and running stress.

If there would be any paper out there which can proof the correlation the you need IDEAL sensors. Especially the Garmin sensors are very bad.

Then show me the science paper about a specific Garmin device test. Because the sensors and the implementation matters a lot. I am sure there is no paper out there.

But I can show you a very new science study - not paid from Garmin or Firstbeat - about the correlation of training load and hrv: "Crucially, changes in heart rate variability neither follow training load nor intensity at the individual level CONCLUSIONS: Heart rate variability did not seem to be a reliable proxy of training load and/or intensity as many previous reports have suggested, even if training conditions changed dramatically overnight."

Is heart rate variability actually a reliable inde...

PURPOSE: The COVID-19 crisis also affected elite sport severely, as elite athletes either stopped or drastically reduced their training regimen due to the lack of competitions and the mandatory lockdown. The aim of this study was to test whether hear...

sponet.fi

 

[Indianwin2001]

Show me the paper where there is a statement that the algorithms can be used for everyone for training planning or even one paper about the correlation of HRV and running stress.

If there would be any paper out there which can proof the correlation the you need IDEAL sensors. Especially the Garmin sensors are very bad.

Then show me the science paper about a specific Garmin device test. Because the sensors and the implementation matters a lot. I am sure there is no paper out there.

But I can show you a very new science study - not paid from Garmin or Firstbeat - about the correlation of training load and hrv: "Crucially, changes in heart rate variability neither follow training load nor intensity at the individual level CONCLUSIONS: Heart rate variability did not seem to be a reliable proxy of training load and/or intensity as many previous reports have suggested, even if training conditions changed dramatically overnight."

Is heart rate variability actually a reliable inde...

PURPOSE: The COVID-19 crisis also affected elite sport severely, as elite athletes either stopped or drastically reduced their training regimen due to the lack of competitions and the mandatory lockdown. The aim of this study was to test whether hear...

sponet.fi

Well if this is true, than Athlytic and Training Today are totally useless. Athlytic only takes HRV and sleep into account. So that means Apple has ZERO training metrics as those are the only 2 apps that tracks recovery metrics. Better off with a Whoop than AW.

 

[Zelegorm]

Well if this is true, than Athlytic and Training Today are totally useless. Athlytic only takes HRV and sleep into account. So that means Apple has ZERO training metrics as those are the only 2 apps that tracks recovery metrics. Better off with a Whoop than AW.

Like my description above. There is absolutely no gold standard like : Garmin is doing it right. Nope. It's not working. I've never seen any coach impressed about the Garmin stuff. It can work. Most likely it will not.

With Garmin you are stuck here. It's not working at all. No alternatives. With the Apple Watch you can easily try out other algorithms like using oura / athlytics / training today. Yes no proof that it's better. But you are free to try it.

What is no valid : Tell the people that Garmin IS better. Or the gold standard. It's not. It's marketing. Nothing more.

And again my description above. What to do with that information?

1. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling bad: I am sure you will go out for the planned run

2. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling good. Congratulations

Summary: the crap will not change your choice when you are feeling good

3. when you are feeling bad and watch is telling you that you are feeling bad. Congratulations.

4. When you are feeling bad and the dumb algorithm is telling you that you are feeling good. I think you will not go out for running.

Summary: Useless crap

I found out how to use it for myself. No algorithm of the world can do what I am doing with the data. Therefore I only need the RAW data of the watch. Garmin is averaging the values. That's not valid or even bad for that purpose.

 

[xDKP]

1. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling bad: I am sure you will go out for the planned run

2. when you feel good and the watch is telling you that you are feeling good. Congratulations

Summary: the crap will not change your choice when you are feeling good

3. when you are feeling bad and watch is telling you that you are feeling bad. Congratulations.

4. When you are feeling bad and the dumb algorithm is telling you that you are feeling good. I think you will not go out for running.

Summary: Useless crap

This is pretty much how I see many people doing it - everyone loves all these good looking data pages on great displays but how many does actually do anything about it?

 

[Zelegorm]

This is pretty much how I see many people doing it - everyone loves all these good looking data pages on great displays but how many does actually do anything about it?

I was the same. But in fact there is no way you can use it for your training. In addition to that I have a stryd pod. The model of the stryd pod reflects much better than any Garmin algorithms the actual state of the training including the race predictions. What's left? A bad heart rate sensor at least more worse than the Apple Watch sensor. The GPS is the same.

But what I am losing is a lot. Freedom to leave the phone at home. Real fall detection. Apple Pay. All the other smartwatch functionality.

That's why my Fenix 7 is still in the drawer. The only thing is the battery life on the Garmin. That's all. But with the AWU it is much better than expected. No worries anymore. Even for very long runs : No worries at all.

No need for carrying any phone and more. That's real freedom

 

[xDKP]

I was the same. But in fact there is no way you can use it for your training. In addition to that I have a stryd pod. The model of the stryd pod reflects much better than any Garmin algorithms the actual state of the training including the race predictions. What's left? A bad heart rate sensor at least more worse than the Apple Watch sensor. The GPS is the same.

But what I am losing is a lot. Freedom to leave the phone at home. Real fall detection. Apple Pay. All the other smartwatch functionality.

That's why my Fenix 7 is still in the drawer. The only thing is the battery life on the Garmin. That's all. But with the AWU it is much better than expected. No worries anymore. Even for very long runs : No worries at all.

No need for carrying any phone and more. That's real freedom

Spot on why I love running both all the training and the marathons with my Apple Watch - A Coros/Garmin might be marginally better for the run itself (since WatchOS 9 not even much) but for the rest of the package, the AWU blows them out of the water.

 

[DontGetTheCheese]

Does anyone also wear a whoop band ? Curious if the Athlytic app is just as good.

I tried it, it recorded a 30 minute, 1 mile walk, with a max heart rate of 192, and crazy high for 1/2 of it. Sleep tracking was equally weird, though not crazy off. Battery dropped fast too.

I just don't see anything there, and I don't really see any value in any of the metrics, really, but I may have already said that in this thread.

It's possible I got a bad unit but I cancelled in the 30-day window and it's on it's way back to them.

 

[d3vp0ll]

I’ll just chime in here and add that since switching to a Garmin I’m not only fitter, I’ve also seen better performance in my running. I can go on and on about the pros and cons of the training metrics between the platforms but it’s moot because what matters to me are real results.

 

[Indianwin2001]

I’ll just chime in here and add that since switching to a Garmin I’m not only fitter, I’ve also seen better performance in my running. I can go on and on about the pros and cons of the training metrics between the platforms but it’s moot because what matters to me are real results.

Exactly this. Garmin Connect is very motivating.