Good news everyone...

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by Cycling Asia, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Cycling Asia macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    #1
    I am picking up my 2017 MBP soon after having the T key fall off one to many times, and the sudden failure of all (i.e. both) USB-C ports, plus issues with returning from sleep (it would take minutes for the display to appear). It is about 2 months out of official warranty (that is I got it at the end of August 2017), but I've been told that everything is covered under warranty (not sure who's warranty that is - whether it is based on an apple recall or Australian consumer protection warranties)

    It's **** that these new devices don't seem to last as long as the older laptops (I still use a MBA from 2011 and a MBP from 2015). I doubt I will ever get another one unless their reliability increases dramatically.

    Oh, I also found out that there is a recall on the round power adaptor plugs, at least in Australia (I think they official call them duck heads). Apparently they can catch fire without warning. As I've seen no mention of the recall, I thought I would add it here.
     
  2. 1096bimu macrumors 6502

    1096bimu

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    #2
    Just because yours failed doesn't mean all of them fail.
     
  3. derbaron macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    #3
    Apple's computer hardware in general has major design flaws which makes them prone to failure, not only concerning the new keyboard models. Louis Rossmann, a repair company owner from NYC, has talked about this topic repeatedly (1, 2, 3). You can watch the playlist here. Keep in mind this gentleman repairs failed MacBooks for a living. Alternatively, have a look at Linus Tech Tips joy with a 5000 $ iMac Pro that highlights Apple's attitude towards it's high price paying customers. The internet is full of this stuff, these are not single incidents from users who don't know how to hold a laptop. All those nice designs, bright screens and smooth OS ain't gonna help if you impoverish yourself just to keep the products working for what is considered a regular lifetime.

    The tactics are: Close and seal everything off, use your own screws and ports, solder everything you can to the logicboard. If it can't be soldered, glue it. Why use screws, which are proven and tested for ages and could help expand the lifetime and chance of repair? Sue repair shops for trying to fix your engineering fails. Newest idea, put a special chip in that stops anyone with knowledge and courage who attempts to change any piece from being successful and sell it as a security measure. Not to mention, don't take any real action on >2000 $ devices to prevent, for example, corrosion to mainboards through a simple sealing like Lenovo does with their Thinkpads. When a customers asks for repair, don't change single components, but whole groups considered as one unit and charge far in excess of what it is actually worth. Become world's most valuable company.

    For me personally, I begin to see this whole behavior very critical and I feel let down by the politics of this huge company. I've used several MacBook Pros and iPhones the last decade, but just sold my iPhone X and am seriously considering not to switch to the Xs Max, but to ditch Apple once and for all. I'm not gonna let me play by a company that has all the worlds resources to produce the most clever constructed tech and at the same time afford reasonably priced, fast and environmentally friendly repair options.
     
  4. Funsize93 macrumors regular

    Funsize93

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Location:
    Australia
    #4
    If you dont like it then dont buy it. Plain and simple. Apple is not forcing you to buy their products and you are more than capable of buying a product that is more fitting for you. Everyone has different needs and preferences. Other manufactures may better suit your needs. Companies change and adapt all the time. Yes you may have liked Apple products in the past but if you do not personally like where the company is headed with their products it may be time to look at other options, other options which are better than sitting down whinging about the product your bought which no longer suits your needs.

    If you would like to complain. Apple would be more than happy to take your feedback into consideration when engineering new devices. Apple in the past has taken into consideration the voices of its customers if enough show their concerns. You can do this here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/

    Not everyone has had a poor experience as you. Most customers are happy with their products and are absolutely fascinated with the technology behind it all. Most people do not have an issue with their devices at all and they usually last a reasonable amount of time. I still remember the look on my Grandmothers face when i showed her that she can facetime with her other grandchildren, all of which is a magical experience for her. Sounds like you have had a case of bad luck. I hope you have a better experience in the future. Im glad that Apple is able to provide a remedy even if its means having your device repaired. Under the Australian Consumer law you would have been eligible for a brand new replacement if you have asked or contacted AppleCare.
     
  5. derbaron macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    #5
    That's exactly what I'm saying, as of today, I don't own any more Apple products. But it's quite easy to dismiss appropriate critique as whining. It seems to me the main message of my post got lost in your response: It's not that I don't like the products anymore or only got a poor experience - in fact, I still love the design, the materials, the screens, speakers, touchpads, apps and a lot more.

    What I'm concerned about is the politics, which are leaning towards more and more isolation, proprietary solutions to keep the user with all his products within the Apple ecosystem - which is understandable from a company point of view - but also limit him in his possibilities for repair while, at the same time, not always take enough care for a solid engineering. It seems I'm not alone with the thought that Apple mostly doesn't deal clever with the mistakes they make. If you would try to rebuild a MacBook with original parts from Apple, it would cost about twice as much as a new machine. Keep in mind, these do not include costs for assembly, we are just talking parts. How could someone not notice this smells fishy? It is nothing more than the abuse of the market position - to the disadvantage of someone who already paid a good amount of money to you. "Go and buy a new one!". How much do you believe in your own product that you ask several thousands dollar for, giving it a 1-year-warranty if you don't purchase an expensive plan? There are car manufactures out there who give a 7 year guarantee for free!

    I can understand everyone wants to defend his decisions after buying expensive tech, which I'm absolutely in the same boat, but you always need to have a keen eye if there is a line being crossed that should not be, no matter how much you like the company. Which has become the case with Apple within the last years if you ask me.
     
  6. Samuelsan2001 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    #6
    All of which is your experience and opinion, one not shared by everyone. It’s not about dismissing it as whining, as you put it, it’s about not sharing your dislike of apples decisions, or in my case seeing the benefits as well as the pitfalls of them.
     
  7. derbaron, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018

    derbaron macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    #7
    I can't follow your argument at all. This points mentioned before like
    • trying to prevent customers from open, cleaning and repairing their products
    • not providing original parts for repair to the public (like Samsung does)
    • increasingly soldering and glueing components instead of using screws
    • as a result, in case of repair, not changing single components, but whole grouped component-units for higher costs
    • suing independent repair shops
    • while at the same time, often charging in excess of de facto worth for repairs
    • developing special chipsets that prevent the exchange of components without the use of a proprietary software
    • having major design flaws like the keyboard problems which are not even fixed in a new model but instead covered unsuccessfully
    • offering a quite short warranty
    • not having trained repair staff available for new Pro-products
    are not personal opinion, those are facts. Facts that are bad for you as a customer, your wallet and bad for the environment. I highly doubt anyone would seem them as a benefit. Not even if you are rich, then it could not matter to you at best - or if someone works for Apple himself.

    I will give an example that is easy to understand: Let's say you have a defect RAM on your logicboard. Normally, you would order one online for a small price, open your MacBook with a standard screwdriver, replace the component and while you're it, clean some dust out, close it again and you're good to go. With the new Apple politics, the logicboard will not be repaired, it will be thrown out as with the soldered components, it is seen as one part, not several that you can easily replace. Not to say that you also can't upgrade any parts afterwards. That is not "pro", it is a mess and a waste of resources.

    I do not say that the idea of having a network of company owned repair stores is in any way bad and I don't have a problem with people going there who don't know how to do it themselves, are afraid of it or just don't want or have the time to do so. But it DOES play a role how it is done and if the conditions are fair. Apple has been shifting from a company primarily focused on the development of innovative technology and its distribution within society to a company that is primarily focused on maximizing profits. Repairs and aftermarket parts are normally not a field for high profits. How do you boost this? You are taking measures that make you the number 1 in the repair business for all of your products. Once you have the monopoly, you pretty much define the rules as long as laws and customers don't intervene. This is exactly what Apple is trying to accomplish the last years, and anyone who doesn't see this, is either careless or doesn't want to.

    As I said, I have used Apple products for years and I want them to be long-lasting and easy to repair. And I wish to use them in the future, but not at all costs.
     
  8. Samuelsan2001 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    #8
    I am not careless blind or stupid. I agree with apples decisions on an engineering and design standpoint they make devices slimmer, lighter with less moving parts and with less points of failure. In a portable device this is far better than being able to upgrade your ram or your hard drive.
    Apple will always be the number one repair business for their products, and if that isn’t what you want then don’t buy their products, every OEM is the number one point of repair for the devices they make. And most of them make it much harder just as expensive and even more long winded than apple.

    Just because they want to maximise profits ( this is a legal requirement for any publicly traded company) doesn’t stop them being at the forefront of tech design and more importantly implementation.
    Apple are popular not because they are first but because they do it right before they release it to a mass market. For me that is what I want, I don’t want a 4K screen with a crap battery life I want a screen that’s pixel density is great for the screen use and keeps the battery life good just as an example.

    I couldn’t care less if the are easy to repair i’m never going to repair them,
    If it lasts more than 5 years i’ll Just replace and before that time i’ll Get it fixed if it’s a reasonable price or sell for parts and replace if not.

    You clearly don’t understand the environmental policies of apple either. They recycle all the materials they can from every device or component that ends up back with them it’s the third party people that will throw out an old board or screen without thinking twice.

    https://www.apple.com/uk/environment/resources/

    In short I don’t disagree that apple are making devices harder to fix for the average person nor even more expensive. I just consider the upsides if apples design choices more relevant than the down sides.

    I have bought somewhere in the region of 10 apple devices in the last 8 years every single one of them is still working perfectly (even an iPhone 4) either for me or new owners and some of those devices were bought second hand at very good prices too. So as you can see from my experience it’s the right way to do business.
     
  9. _Kiki_ macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    #9
    Can you show me any proof or this only your "empty" opinion ?
     
  10. Cycling Asia thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    #10
    Well, it seems I've started a bit of a holy war here... But I got the laptop back, the only thing original in it is the speakers and the chassis. So this will be the third mainboard for the laptop. So I will give kudos to Apple that the device was in their care for 5 days and they didn't try to place blame for any failed components upon me (though I would still have preferred if the device hadn't failed as it did.
     
  11. Samuelsan2001 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    #11
    No emptier than yours, mine is my opinion based on what I know of engineering and design from a background on using and maintaining and even being part of design and testing scientific equipment for 20 years. And my knowledge of supply chains and business practices and law, from working in pharmaceuticals all of which use very similar QC and evidence based design decisions as the electronics industry.

    I am not saying your opinion or wants are not valid I am just saying they are not the only valid opinions and desires. A point I have stressed here. I am just providing an opposite point of view one that’s just as valid from my position.
     
  12. _Kiki_, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018

    _Kiki_ macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    #12
    you're looking for discussion without any knowledge about hardware side of MacBooks, what a lame explanation
     
  13. derbaron, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018

    derbaron macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    #13
    Sorry for spamming your thread :)

    To be fair, I didn't say you are blind or stupid and I don't think you are. And I respect that you have your opinion, but I still think you are getting it wrong in some ways, not all. Even someone with experience can be distracted by how shiny Apple products are. And we both share a similar opinion with the design decisions of having less moving parts and ports that are always a risk for failure. For example, I didn't have a problem with Apple getting rid of the headphone jack, however I'd have wished for a change to USB-C the same time (which I love at the new MacBooks and prefer having a single dongle than a dozen ports where dust and crap gets into my machine). Keep in mind there is a reason why I am posting here and not just buy something else without bothering. I'm a long time user of those devices too and a member of the "Apple user community" as well who wants best for us as customers as well as the company. And I think I have a right to comment on decisions that I think are wrong and not just be told to bugger off and use some bloatware smartphone or else. I want to stay in the Apple ecosystem, be happy with my tech and not suffer from cognitive dissonance which might make me defend a huge company that makes bad decisions.

    One more word to the recycling: When you mention I didn't understand their environmental policies, I think you have already fallen for their tactics. This method is called greenwashing, portraying your company more ecologically friendly than it really is. I'll explain you why: If you have a defect CPU or RAM which is soldered/glued etc. to the logicboard, there is no alternative than throwing out the whole board including the integrated components. This board might be recycled (however I don't know to what percentage), but recycling needs resources and energy too and in this case, it needs more space, more parts, more energy in contrast to just the single CPU unit that would normally just have been taken out of the socket. In addition, the customers needs a replacement for the whole board, not just the CPU, which in consequence again means: More need for energy and rare resources for absolutely no other reason than Apples profit. And there is no valid argument such as thinner devices, because there are other manufacturers who produce equally thin laptops while using screws or other methods. I actually doubt that people would care about the modern MBPs being 2 or 3 mm higher, when having a better cooling solution and being easier to repair.

    It would just be possible for Apple to change just that one failed component and keep up the same good recycling process, but much more efficient AND cheaper for us. There is a reason why they decided to do that and it is not care for our planet. And no: I don't say, Apple is a bad company when it comes to be sustainable. I think they are actually quite good in comparison to other players in the industry. But that doesn't give them the right to proceed like they actually do.

    You have mentioned your products that you bought from Apple over the last 8 years. I had a 2010 MacBook Pro where it was quite easy to open it and exchange the hard drive for an SSD. With the newer versions, this is no longer an option (no matter which parts we are talking about now), so beware of the new product line: One day, you will stand in an Apple store and be charged 800 $, 1000 $, 1200 $ that you need for something really important, for an repair that is actually not even worth 1/3 of the price, because it is in fact just a single piece that needs to be replaced, not half your machine. The question is, are you still going to defend this kind of business then? Probably not.
     
  14. Cycling Asia thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    #14
    It's all good. Tell you what though, there's nothing quite like the feel of a brand new MBP - even if it is new only because everything has been replaced.
     
  15. Funsize93 macrumors regular

    Funsize93

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Location:
    Australia
    #15
    If you have another hardware failure within the next 2 years I would ask for a brand new replacement under the Australian Consumer Law. Who knows, as they no longer sell your device you will get a nice free bonus upgrade ;)
     
  16. Cycling Asia thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    #16
    cheers, I'll keep that in mind.
     
  17. coolX macrumors member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    #18
    guys lets get productive. what windows laptops or desktops should we get to replace these bogus apple products?
     
  18. macjunk(ie) macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    #19
    In addition:
    - recycling will not give you back everything. There will be wastage. If a board contains 10 ounces of precious metal, you will not get back all of it after re-cycling
    - The most environmentally friendly scenario is when your laptops don't need frequent repairs due to bad design! Having less things to recycle because your designs are extensible and modular is always more environmentally friendly than soldering and gluing components
    - Even if you don't personally upgrade RAM or SSD (because you prefer to buy a new laptop), you could sell/donate it to people who would be very happy with the machine for years to come after they upgrade its specs. These guys don't need to buy a laptop, thus reducing consumption and helping the environment.
    - Your own needs could change over time. Perhaps today you felt that a 256GB model is enough. 3 years down the line, you are happy with the computing power but you need more space. With Apple, you will have to buy a new device, increasing your consumption of resources yet again.
    - I have met and read about a lot of people frequenting for their 3rd or 4th repair to the Apple Stores. They are travelling in cars, sometimes in the tens of miles, to an Apple Store spending their time trying to get their machines fixed. So many things wrong here - travelling to the store, you burn fossil fuels, spend time on mitigation instead of being productive elsewhere...

    Thanks for this. I have not found may on the forum very receptive when Apple is accused of greenwashing. And most people don't care either - after all, most of us will be dead before Planet Earth becomes decrepit.

    Last year, I spent ~25 hours a week for 10 months, of my own personal time, to decommission a highly inefficient application in my company - replacing it with a more efficient one. The bosses did not care and told me before hand I will not be paid for it. Nevertheless, I reduced the energy impact of the application to 4 from 60 on every server - we had 40 of them in total. Did I save the planet? No. But every small bit counts!

    I might sound like an environmental nut. I am ok with that. I recently had a son and I am really afraid of what he will have to go through in life 50 years from now. Will the planet still be as kind to him then as it is to us today?
     
  19. Alameda macrumors 6502a

    Alameda

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    #20
    Nobody “prefers” to buy a product which can’t be repaired even two months after purchase.
    I’ve been an Apple customer since 1987. I stopped about 1996, when they lost their way and shipped PowerPC computers which cost more and ran more slowly than the computers they replaced. I began again after Jobs got OS-X and Intel CPU’s working.

    I gotta be honest with you — when I got fed up and left Apple last time, after a decade of loyalty — a LOT of people joined me, and Apple went nearly bankrupt. It’s not that I started the movement or anything, but when you treat your customers so horribly that you deliberately slow down their hardware to force customers to upgrade and you refuse to repair brand new computers, you’ve got a badly broken organization and customers will leave.

    I think my new MacBook Pro, with only USB Type-C, and its frequent crashes is my last. Digging out these stupid dongles is way too inconvenient. They certainly could have put USB Type-C connectors on the laptop without removing every other connector.

    I think Apple’s become an out of touch, uncaring company and that it’s time for me to try a different phone and laptop next time.
     
  20. arkitect macrumors 603

    arkitect

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Location:
    Bath, United Kingdom
    #21
    I agree with your whole post. Same as you I am a long term Apple Mac user from the 80s, mid 90s went PC… came back to Mac because of Jobs.

    For me 30th October is an important event. I sincerely hope that Apple will show us they still care enough about the Mac as a working computer and not just the fashion / coffeeshop accessory as it is now.

    If I move from Mac OS, then I will also move to Android. *shrug* I am only myself, and sure my small couple person show won't hurt Apple's bottom line one bit and Phil and Tim and "Jony"'s Ship of Fools will sail on until one day it runs aground. Such hubris fro Apple…
    But at least I will then have the tools I need to earn a living. I dream of the days when I bought the cheese grater Mac Pros. Work horses that just kept on giving. Upgrade and built to last with the bare minimum welded and glued down by Apple.
    I guess those days are gone.
     
  21. Alameda, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018

    Alameda macrumors 6502a

    Alameda

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    #22
    I want to be as blunt as I can: Listening to these overweight executives on stage talking about how thin their products are is pathetic. Who cares that the new phone is 1mm thinner or that the iMac is 2cm thinner?

    They call this Marketing? Cause, honestly, I’ve NEVER heard somebody in MacRumors complain that their iMac is too thick or their iPhone needs to be thinner, or they won’t buy it because the color is wrong.

    If they listened to the people who give them the money which lets them make their BMW payments, Apple’s executives would hear that they want easy to use, durable, reliable, fixable, upgradable products.

    Has ANYBODY EVER said, “Gee, I’d buy the the new MacBook, but it doesn’t have enough glue inside?” Or “My iMac is too thick”?

    I feel as though I shouldn’t have bought the MB Pro and I think Apple has changed into a very insular, disconnected, non-caring company. At least, these products don’t relate to me very well any longer, and that is very frustrating to me. Apple is supposed to be the premium brand that charges extra in return for better quality and support. Now, you pay extra for the brushed aluminum.
     
  22. derbaron macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    #23
    I agree with the additions (and guess that Apple is not having a recycling plant in Palo Alto, so that Zuckerberg needs a face mask on his way to the FB HQ like people in China) and those server changes seem to be massive. It's sad that a company's upper echelon doesn't recognizes the importance of decreasing the ecological footprint. So, kudos to you! I wouldn't call me an eco nut either as I have, like many of us, some habits that aren't ideal (for example, having nice, shiny and fast tech.. I also drive a car with more HP than I'd need). But I wanna live in a healthy nature, no matter if city or countryside and I'm willing to work on it. Especially when it spares us customers being ripped off for big money! And I can absolutely understand you begin to see things in a different light when you have kids and are not only caring about your own life, but for someone else that will hopefully outlive you.

    When my keyboard issues started last year, I was lucky enough to gain access to a quite fast windows machine before I sold the MBP. I use it with a 27-inch 1440p display, a mechanical keyboard and a logitech Master MX 2S (which is a dream). But this tower can't stay here forever because it is ugly, stealing a lot of space and the cables drive me nuts. My personal preference at the moment would be a Lenovo Thinkpad (T-Series). They are not as nicely designed as the MacBooks unfortunately and I don't really know how to feel about the red "knob", but I know a lot of people love them.

    When it comes to phones, I've ordered a Note 9 just today. With a little bit of luck, it will arrive on Tuesday. I'm actually looking forward to it, haven't used an Android phone for about 8-9 years.
     
  23. Martius macrumors 6502

    Martius

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Location:
    Prague, CZ
    #24
    Well, there is difference between whining and being objectively critical. I think with all those resources Apple has they could easily build thin & upgradable laptop. They just don't want to. I have watched a lot of Louis Rossman videos and he really convinced me, there is a lot of wrong with Apple and it's hardware design (in terms of planned obsolescence).

    I would love to see an upgradable 15" 4K laptop with all the useful ports for a decent price, but yeah, that's whining. But if your $3000 has a badly designed keyboard which will mostly fail in 6 months and the company that creates this laptop will replace it with the same one flawed keyboard, that's bad. That is objectively bad and if anybody is still defending Apple about that means that he is really just a sheep.
     
  24. rutrack macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    #25
    It's amusing how many of the critics of current Apple line of products feel the need to say that Apple products do not deliver anymore, but they bought one and probably shouldn't have. All of that, in my book, is whining, you will keep buying and keep whining. The only constructive criticism is not to buy. This is the only criticism that works and makes a change. Until you do that nothing is going to change.
    I'm not an Apple customer from 70s-80s, like some posters here, my first laptop was a 533Mhz Titanium Powerbook, which had paint coming off, loose hinges, low resolution display, but it was so incredibly revolutionary that I didn't care about all those minor defects, the following generations fixed that. But the company strategy was to appeal to professional segment. The Project Builder IDE was given away for free, the unix toolset and a nice terminal available immediately ... you can keep praising that time, but the bottom line is, despite the minor defects the entire product strategy made many people convert and invest their time and efforts into mac. People began thinking differently. Now the mac users are likely nothing more than an audience for app store, icloud, apple music etc who keep buying new iterations of devices so they can send more money to Apple. Took me a while to change my work environment away from apple and my 2015 MBP, which by the way is an amazing product, is the last device I bought. I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I just find it really amusing that so many people are genuinely unhappy, but keep investing into this.
     

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45 October 19, 2018