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Odd that Google would need your current location in order to give you a street view of some place that is NOT your current location.

Either way, Apple Maps has been working well for me, but I am sure glad for two things:

1) The media uproar means that Apple won't take their usual slow pace at improving things.

2) Google is adding new features to their maps at a much-accelerated pace. Competition is good.

This seems like a win-win to me because I live in a US area where my usage of Apple Maps has so far been flawless. So far it seems USA, China and North Korea (and maybe Germany) have seen the best performance out of Apple Maps. It seems the UK and maybe France got pretty shafted with Apple Maps. The problems in the UK seem more than just anecdotal.

I expect Tim Cook will give an update on Apple Maps at the supposed Oct 17th iPad mini event. Maybe he will even announce iOS 6.1 or some cloud-based update to Apple Maps.

Apple maps is a fail in Singapore. Pretty much everything is wrong and the satellite view is a giant cloud.

Google maps rocks. It's never failed me and I rely on it everyday. Think I'm dumping my apple for Samsung next month when my contract is up. I'm really not impressed with the slow dev cycle and Apples approach to their user base.

I agree competition is good. But google are way ahead in the map technology. Have you seen the new underwater photography the have added. It's Awsome. Great for planning vacations, especially if you like diving or beach locations.
 
So far it seems USA, China and North Korea (and maybe Germany) have seen the best performance out of Apple Maps.

Yeah, the NORTH Koreans have been really happy. Although apple doesn't even sell producs there, the handful of people who have iOS devices have been very happy. :D
 
The street view is definately not perfect, if I look from one side of the street I can see my office block no bother, but then if I switch to the other side of the road, suddenly my office block is still in construction!!!!

I think I will keep using the Apple Maps as I dont have too much of an issue with them and think they are pretty good!

Slightly out of date streetview is better than no streetview!

Is street view really that essential to people? I have use it a couple of times and I prefer Bing's birds eye by far...

Streetview is useful because if you're going somewhere new you can se what it'll look like so you know when you're there, and where things are. Birdseye view (3D or otherwise!) is no use for that, in fact I'd say Flyover is replacing a useful feature with useless eye candy :(
 
argreed.....since street view on non moblie works just fine without giving current location.

The entire point is to collect location data.
Your desktop IP address is going to give a far more accurate location compared to that on your mobile phone.

Its all about data mining.
 
So the reason not to call the users "products" is that it sounds bad.

If Google lost all their users tomorrow, what would they sell to their customers?

I can agree that it's not the users directly that are products, but their data.

Instead of thinking of it as a one sided thing, think of it how it really is. Google gets data by making good products people want to use, and offering them for free. If they didn't offer a compelling service to end users, they wouldn't be able to gather the data they EVILLY SELL TO ADVERTISERS OMG ILLUMINATI!

You get to use something nice, with the only price being that Google is allowed to use your web traffic data they gather as a carrot to get advertising dollars rolling in, which is how they make money. Since it's all anonymous, there's really no downside to it...other than maybe risking seeing an ad in one of their web apps, anyway.

You're not Google's "product". Though you don't give them money directly, you're still one of their customers. They still have to please you. Otherwise, you won't use their stuff, and they'll lose money from the loss of data you provide by using said stuff.

Apple pretty much does the same thing on a smaller scale with the iTunes and App Store Genius thing, and iAds. They're scanning the things you buy, watch, use, and listen to see what you like so they can target advertise to you, with the intention of getting you to buy more stuff from their various stores. The only difference is that Apple makes money directly off you, whereas Google is more indirect about it.

It's like TV vs. subscription channel. You wouldn't say you're a "product" of your local TV channels, would you?
 
Your desktop IP address is going to give a far more accurate location compared to that on your mobile phone.
I'm afraid this is incorrect. Databases that assign an IP address (or address spaces/ranges) to a particular location need to be constantly updated based on data from internet providers who claim particular IP ranges for particular areas. This however changes all the time. I remember for some time some websites thought I live in Paris (I do not). Moreover the fidelity of this information is not always high - you might only know the city or region that IP belongs to.
 
I'm afraid this is incorrect. Databases that assign an IP address (or address spaces/ranges) to a particular location need to be constantly updated based on data from internet providers who claim particular IP ranges for particular areas. This however changes all the time. I remember for some time some websites thought I live in Paris (I do not). Moreover the fidelity of this information is not always high - you might only know the city or region that IP belongs to.

All I know is when I'm at my house, my iPhone usually pins me down near where I'm sitting, and my computer and iPad always put me in the front yard somewhere.
 
Instead of thinking of it as a one sided thing, think of it how it really is. Google gets data by making good products people want to use, and offering them for free. If they didn't offer a compelling service to end users, they wouldn't be able to gather the data

Of course, but that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

You get to use something nice, with the only price being that Google is allowed to use your web traffic data they gather as a carrot to get advertising dollars rolling in, which is how they make money. Since it's all anonymous, there's really no downside to it...other than maybe risking seeing an ad in one of their web apps, anyway.

It's about trust in the end, it's also about the well being of companies that use this business model. If they ever get's acquired, or lands in financial trouble they might decide to do more with the data. You know you already signed the end user agreement.

You're not Google's "product". Though you don't give them money directly, you're still one of their customers. They still have to please you. Otherwise, you won't use their stuff, and they'll lose money from the loss of data you provide by using said stuff.

You're not a customer if you do not pay anything, fact. Of course they need to take care of their users, without the users they would have nothing to sell, much like a farmer needs to take care of his animals, or crop.

Apple pretty much does the same thing on a smaller scale with the iTunes and App Store Genius thing, and iAds. They're scanning the things you buy, watch, use, and listen to see what you like so they can target advertise to you, with the intention of getting you to buy more stuff from their various stores. The only difference is that Apple makes money directly off you, whereas Google is more indirect about it.

No not at all, the revenue of iAds lands in the hands of the developers who chose to use it. It's not a critical part of Apple's revenue, it's miniscule.

It's like TV vs. subscription channel. You wouldn't say you're a "product" of your local TV channels, would you?

It's not like that at all, because an advertised channel doesn't mine data from the viewers, it's dumb advertising, just like news papers or billboards.
 
All I know is when I'm at my house, my iPhone usually pins me down near where I'm sitting, and my computer and iPad always put me in the front yard somewhere.
If you're using Wi-fi that's probably due to the fact it's using triangulation which is less accurate than GPS. IP addresses are never assigned to a particular address (as in, that data is not available to anyone except your internet provider and law enforcement officers).
 
Of course, but that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

It's perfectly relevant, because it's an important part of how they make money. If you don't use their stuff, you don't give them the data they need to entice advertisers.

It's...like...the circle of life, man. The cows eat the grass, and the tigers eat the cows, which then poop out the cow to fertilize more grass for more cows to eat. Only with people using web apps, which generate traffic information, and no one gets eaten.

It's about trust in the end, it's also about the well being of companies that use this business model. If they ever get's acquired, or lands in financial trouble they might decide to do more with the data. You know you already signed the end user agreement.

Yeah, that's a good point. But considering Google's data on you is pretty vague, undefined, and not really on you, it's not much to worry about. You're not Bill Grubber, at 354 W. Elm Street who has a predilection for donkey porn. You're a number floating about that generates traffic data. They don't know you specifically visit donkey porn websites, just that random number of people who visit donkey porn websites tend to go to macrumors shortly thereafter, and are able to target advertise macrumors with donkey porn adsense ads.

You're not a customer if you do not pay anything, fact. Of course they need to take care of their users, without the users they would have nothing to sell, much like a farmer needs to take care of his animals, or crop.

If you use a product, you're a customers, regardless of if you had to pay an entrance fee or not. The thing you're confusing here is that you seem to believe there can only be one customer in an economic ecosystem. This isn't true at all. You're the customer as much the advertisers are. Google needs you and them both to maintain their business model.

No not at all, the revenue of iAds lands in the hands of the developers who chose to use it. It's not a critical part of Apple's revenue, it's miniscule.

They're still gathering information on you, which is kind of the point. Whether they use it as extensively as Google is secondary to that.

And much like Google, it's probably pretty generic and not at all threatening.

It's not like that at all, because an advertised channel doesn't mine data from the viewers, it's dumb advertising, just like news papers or billboards.

Haven't you heard of target demographics on television? Advertisers don't put maxi pad and tampon commercials up during the monster truck happy hour. Why would they? 95% of the people watching monster truck happy hour probably don't need maxi pads, it'd be a waste of the advertisers money. They'd sure as hell be interested in funny beer commercials, though.

Google pretty much does this same thing. Only they're able to drill down to far more specifics than TV advertisers do.
 
It's perfectly relevant, because it's an important part of how they make money. If you don't use their stuff, you don't give them the data they need to entice advertisers.

It's relevant to their business, I agree. It's not relevant to the discussion. It's obvious that they need to create a compelling product, or others will take their place.

If you use a product, you're a customers, regardless of if you had to pay an entrance fee or not. The thing you're confusing here is that you seem to believe there can only be one customer in an economic ecosystem. This isn't true at all. You're the customer as much the advertisers are. Google needs you and them both to maintain their business model.

Your wrong, have you ever tried to contact customer service at Google? It's specifically meant for their paying customers. I understand that they need to take care of the end users, much like a farmer needs to take care of his animals, crop or forrest.

They're still gathering information on you, which is kind of the point. Whether they use it as extensively as Google is secondary to that.

They sell an ad space in an app, it doesn't automatically mean that they mine user data. If they do, please prove it.


Haven't you heard of target demographics on television? Advertisers don't put maxi pad and tampon commercials up during the monster truck happy hour.

Yes I have heard it, it's again obvious. They make certain assumptions or market research about the demographics of a monster truck show which dictates what kind of ads are shown.
 
Your wrong, have you ever tried to contact customer service at Google? It's specifically meant for their paying customers. I understand that they need to take care of the end users, much like a farmer needs to take care of his animals, crop or forrest.

Enough with the lame analogies (that's funny coming from me). It serves no purpose other than making Google look bad to further your argument.

People who use Google apps and products aren't a crop, aren't animals waiting for the slaughter, or a forest full of trees. They're one side to a much larger business whole.

Hell, you could say the same thing about Apple. We're all bleating sheep being shovel fed overpriced movies and music, funneled through software and hardware designed specifically to keep us begging for more.

...but that's not exactly true now, is it?

They sell an ad space in an app, it doesn't automatically mean that they mine user data. If they do, please prove it.

First link I came across. They're data mining through iTunes, and I assume they're doing the same through the App Store.

Why wouldn't they? Even though you pay Apple directly with money instead of indirectly through traffic data, advertisers still want to sell their products to you. Targeted advertising allows them to do it that much more efficiently.

Yes I have heard it, it's again obvious. They make certain assumptions or market research about the demographics of a monster truck show which dictates what kind of ads are shown.

You talk about assumptions, then turn around and give a perfect example of targeted advertising. Haven't you heard of Nielson ratings? All the various studies made about viewing habits? It's anything but random.
 
Enough with the lame analogies (that's funny coming from me). It serves no purpose other than making Google look bad to further your argument.

People who use Google apps and products aren't a crop, aren't animals waiting for the slaughter, or a forest full of trees. They're one side to a much larger business whole.

Hell, you could say the same thing about Apple. We're all bleating sheep being shovel fed overpriced movies and music, funneled through software and hardware designed specifically to keep us begging for more.

...but that's not exactly true now, is it?

They aren't lame, you are the one who explicitly add bad connotations. There is a real point in there that you missed, and it's not to make Google look bad.

There exist a beneficial relationship between both parties, farmer/animal, the animal get free food and shelter and the farmer gets to use them for products, if not directly like meat then with milk, cheese and so on.


First link I came across. They're data mining through iTunes, and I assume they're doing the same through the App Store.

Why wouldn't they? Even though you pay Apple directly with money instead of indirectly through traffic data, advertisers still want to sell their products to you. Targeted advertising allows them to do it that much more efficiently.

They could get pretty good targeting by the type of app the ad is used in as well. Although this is still on a completely different scale and more like how Amazon can give book recommendations based on previous purchases.

You talk about assumptions, then turn around and give a perfect example of targeted advertising. Haven't you heard of Nielson ratings? All the various studies made about viewing habits? It's anything but random.

They are still based on assumptions, they don't know the eyeballs behind the screen. I know of Nielsen ratings, which is why I mentioned market research, a targeted ad doesn't mean that the user is directly mined. An assumption does not mean random.
 
They should now also update the desktop version of their website to stop using Flash for street view.
 
Google really needs to keep Street View updated to be truly useful. Not that I really care, but I live a mere 30 minutes away from downtown Vancouver and the Street View images in my area date back to at least 2006 (judging from the tree in my front yard which was taken down in the spring of 2007)...
 
They could get pretty good targeting by the type of app the ad is used in as well. Although this is still on a completely different scale and more like how Amazon can give book recommendations based on previous purchases.

It's still basically the same thing, which is the point I'm trying to make here. No one can avoid being used for advertising these days. You go into an online store and buy something, you're leaving data that will be tracked and used to sell you and other people with similar tastes more products later.

Apple does it. Amazon does it. MS probably does it. Google does it. The only difference is Google spreads a wider net.

They are still based on assumptions, they don't know the eyeballs behind the screen. I know of Nielsen ratings, which is why I mentioned market research, a targeted ad doesn't mean that the user is directly mined. An assumption does not mean random.

They don't know the eyeballs specifically, but they do know they belong to a male or female between the ages of blah and blah, who tends to like so and so. It's more than an assumption, less a detailed schematic of your personality and lifestyle. Pretty much the same as what Google has on you.

Think of it like this. Google only knows exactly who you are when you're using your account to sign into one of their services. They know you're Subsonix while you're using Google Maps. If you use Google Maps to launch beyond their services, you no longer have a name attached to you. You're a nameless blip on a radar, with some demographic information attached to it. In other words, you're no longer Subsonix to them. They lost track of your name as soon as you walked out the doors. Now you're just a random grey dot, male, age twenty-something floating around a huge map. They don't know where Subsonix went, but they can track this male, age 20ish dot around to see what it visits, what it buys, and where it goes.

Google then uses this information to gather demographic information. Hundreds of thousands of other male, age 20ish dots tend to go to tech websites, and usually link off tech websites to certain other websites. That's some nice information to have. They can go to an advertiser and say "hey, we know about a group of people who'd love your product. Pay us a million billion trillion dollars, and we'll advertise your product to them". They do it, and since you're tagged as a male, age 20ish dot, you'll see that advertisement.

This is the part that concerns people, but it's all a bunch of hooplah and ado about nothing. They don't know you as Subsonix. That name is just a guy signed up to Google accounts to them. What they know you as is a generic, completely anonymous, and totally nondescript point who likes certain things.

It's like Google is a guy standing on top of a large building, looking down on a crowd of people wearing blue shirts or red shirts. Blue shirt people like pie. Red shirt people like cake. They're too far up to make out any faces, so all they can do is shout "HEY BLUE SHIRT PEOPLE! PIE HERE!".

It's about the most benign thing in the world. I mean sure, the possibilities and implications are kinda creepy. Knowing you're being tracked, even completely anonymously can give some people the jibblies. But the reality of it? It's pretty boring.
 
are we to cheap to buy a dedicated map app? Just buy a dedicated map app. Got the TomTom no problems with it.
 
I'll wait for Google's App (caching; important).

Today I tried searching for the nearest bus stop using Apple's Map application. It told me it was 45 miles away (it wasn't).
 
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