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I'm going to download it in a minute and see.... But I do honestly hope I can still disable flash or click2flash which is how flash always should have been... I HATE things that autorun...

However this seems like a bad move to me... I don't know, need to look into this intgrated plug-model further to see who it'll actually work, but this suggests to me that first adobe has to fix the bug then give it to google to integrate and later push out... Which seems part of the problem with Apple/Java in spite of claims that having the updates integrated into chrome would be better
 
... I boutht the iPhone hoping that Flash would come, but that's where my hope turned to stupidity.....

Same here. I love my iPhones (both 3G s). But I really don't use them for browsing.

Given the fact that Flash is not coming to the iPhone soon, my next purchase will likely be an Android (the same goes for a tablet).

BTW, now that there are rumors about multitasking on the next gen iPhone, I can't wait for all the lemmings to turn 180 and start extolling the virtues of multitasking.... :eek:
 
THis is the real reason Steve Jobs started to hate Google. They are integrating flash! ;)

Funny thing...I was using mobile.me today to access my iDisk. Was using Chrome and had a couple issues so I thought I would try Safari. In Safari - I have click to flash installed - and realised for the first time that the buttons on the mobile.me pop up buttons (at least for iDisk) are Flash!
 
I find it interesting that when Steve Jobs says he can't make his OS's work with Flash, it's Adobe's fault, and almost everyone assumes that Flash is on the way out. Just because it doesn't work on the minority of computers, doesn't mean that it's on the way out. Get a real PC if you can't view your websites. I like my iPhone, but I don't like it that Stevie sold me something that only works on a portion of websites. But that's my fault, not his. I boutht the iPhone hoping that Flash would come, but that's where my hope turned to stupidity. LOL. I believe it's mostly because Apple can't get a portion of the pie, or own Flash and get all the pie. Who knows. Everything at Apple is secret and us genius' on here verse thoughts as facts.

Now, if Google and Adobe have figured a way to integrate it into working in the iPhone version, this would be a great blow to Apple's ego.

So you bought a 3rd generation iPhone 2+ years after the iPhone came out and you still led yourself to believe that Apple would bring Flash to the iPhone at the expense of battery life and bandwidth.

LOL. You are the definition of a true believer.

Does the voice tell you other things to like and dislike?

The products I choose to like or dislike don't have anything to do with believing. I just don't like Google. But I wouldn't expect you to have an original thought.
 
So you bought a 3rd generation iPhone 2+ years after the iPhone came out and you still led yourself to believe that Apple would bring Flash to the iPhone at the expense of battery life and bandwidth.
You mean, just like how they allowed 3rd party apps to be used, at the expense of battery life/bandwidth?

Sorry, your logic is flawed.
 
You guys are pathetic sometimes.

This can only be good for Flash on Mac. With Google integrating flash we can expect additional pressure for Adobe to improve across all platforms. For all we know, Google may now have access to the flash codebase.

Oh and you may have forgotten that Flash is enabled in safari ootb, only it's not fully updated and, therefore, a security concern.

HTML5 may be the future, but we are in the present, so we might as well make flash as good as possible.
 
I'm on a mac.

As am I and I must say that in my experience, Chrome has been very stable. I've had it come down a couple times but Safari has crashed on me more often during that time and I'm using Safari less.

Considering Chrome for Mac is still beta, I've been pretty impressed actually.

It's fast, and I love the dual use URL/Google bar.
 
The fight goes on. I thought goolge was working with apple to kill flash? Maybe apple will play nice with adobe and figure out a better implementation on the mac platofrm?
 
So you bought a 3rd generation iPhone 2+ years after the iPhone came out and you still led yourself to believe that Apple would bring Flash to the iPhone at the expense of battery life and bandwidth.

No, I bought two 1 gen, 2 3G, and 1 3GS now. I guess I was REAL stupid!!!
I did always hope they could get Flash working. I would have bought an iMac, but after reading all of the posts on here about things not working that run great on my PC, I haven't dared. If Apple could get a good processor into the iPhone with low current drain, AND have the ability to get good code to work with Flash, battery drain and speed would not be a problem. It hardly dips processing power on a Core 2 Quad running Windows 7 and Firefox. IE 8 dips it about twice as much, and Safari..... well, I won't talk about that. But who knows, if Apple works on it long enough, maybe they will eventually get it working satisfactorily on Macs and iPhones. But I'm not holding my breath. I don't think Apple is either. And how much of it is ego.... especially when you want the World to switch to something else that WILL run on your OS?
 
I find it interesting that when Steve Jobs says he can't make his OS's work with Flash, it's Adobe's fault, and almost everyone assumes that Flash is on the way out. Just because it doesn't work on the minority of computers, doesn't mean that it's on the way out. Get a real PC if you can't view your websites. I like my iPhone, but I don't like it that Stevie sold me something that only works on a portion of websites. But that's my fault, not his. I bought the iPhone hoping that Flash would come, but that's where my hope turned to stupidity. LOL. I believe it's mostly because Apple can't get a portion of the pie, or own Flash and get all the pie. Who knows. Everything at Apple is secret and us genius' on here verse thoughts as facts.

Now, if Google and Adobe have figured a way to integrate it into working in the iPhone version, this would be a great blow to Apple's ego.

I assume by "real PC" you mean Windows 7. I just spent the weekend working on a Windows 7 machine installing all kinds of Windows only programs (for a clinic). It is becoming more and more apparent to me that Windows 7 is really nothing more than Vista, with a clone of some of OSX functionality. Some of the interface struck me as potential patent disputes for Apple and Microsoft, but I doubt they will ever open that can of worms.

As I was playing around with it, what I found even more interesting was the fact that my CPU cycles spiraled out of control on "Farmville" (a Facebook game for those of you who don't know) just like it does on my Mac. So, if you are trying to imply that Flash is only an issue on Mac's, clearly you don't have your facts straight. Maybe it was just an issue with my particular instance of Windows 7, but I suspect others have the same problem and just don't notice because it is so much better than anything else they have ever experienced in their history with Windows machines.
 
As I was playing around with it, what I found even more interesting was the fact that my CPU cycles spiraled out of control on "Farmville" (a Facebook game for those of you who don't know) just like it does on my Mac. So, if you are trying to imply that Flash is only an issue on Mac's, clearly you don't have your facts straight.

Or maybe it is just an issue with Farmville. Inefficient apps can be written on any platform and in any language.
 
Am I missing something? Doesn’t Apple pre-install the Flash plug-in for Safari users? I know it comes pre-installed when you get your Mac/install Mac OS X, and I believe it’s bundled into the Safari installer package.

Also, the Flash plug-in is updated with each update of Safari whether or not you manually updated Flash because there was a security issue where the update build of Safari installed an older Flash plug-in a few months ago.

Exactly. Apple installs Flash by default, and updates it as well. If anything, this is Google following in Apple's footsteps, not some sort of jab at Apple.

Thanks for your growing stupidity, Google...one more reason to avoid using Chrome anyway.

GOOGLE IS DEAD.

Yes, we get it. Every company that competes with Apple IS DEAD. Can we move on?

I find it interesting that when Steve Jobs says he can't make his OS's work with Flash, it's Adobe's fault, and almost everyone assumes that Flash is on the way out. Just because it doesn't work on the minority of computers, doesn't mean that it's on the way out. Get a real PC if you can't view your websites. I like my iPhone, but I don't like it that Stevie sold me something that only works on a portion of websites. But that's my fault, not his. I bought the iPhone hoping that Flash would come, but that's where my hope turned to stupidity. LOL. I believe it's mostly because Apple can't get a portion of the pie, or own Flash and get all the pie. Who knows. Everything at Apple is secret and us genius' on here verse thoughts as facts.

Now, if Google and Adobe have figured a way to integrate it into working in the iPhone version, this would be a great blow to Apple's ego.

You have a lot of things backwards. Flash doesn't work well with OS X, not the other way around. It's not about Steve not making Flash work well, its about Adobe not caring enough about OS X users to make Flash work well. Because, as Steve allegedly said, they are lazy.

If you bought the iPhone hoping Flash would come, you need to read a few more tech blogs. Flash was always hopeless for the iPhone, since day one. You might as well hope for Windows to come to the iPhone.

What pie are you talking about? Apple doesn't earn anything from anybody viewing web content or ads.

Funny thing...I was using mobile.me today to access my iDisk. Was using Chrome and had a couple issues so I thought I would try Safari. In Safari - I have click to flash installed - and realised for the first time that the buttons on the mobile.me pop up buttons (at least for iDisk) are Flash!

You're right! I just went to iDisk, and when you go to upload a file there is a click-to-flash box for me (which ingeniously stays under my cursor, so I can't do anything BUT click on it). Currently, document uploading in browsers sucks, and using Flash is actually a huge improvement. HTML5 is working on this as well, with multiple file upload support: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/forms.html#file-upload-state
 
I spend far more time working on a Windows machine at work than using my Mac at home. So for most of my day/week I have no idea what Belinda Carlisle was singing about.
 
The iPad is the vision that Steve had since 1976.

I guess you just haven't been around in the IT world long enough when you say that. Steve Jobs was the man who once said that he didn't know who except for maybe a journalist would have a use for a mobile computer.

So, no. This thing for sure has not been his vision since 1976.
 
This whole Flash "war" makes me laugh. You know, the war between Apple and Adobe's Flash product.

Flash was introduced as a lightweight version of Shockwave to display basic animations on a webpage in a time when online video didn't exist. Flash became ubiquitous today not because of its video abilities or ability to run ActionScript/Flex, but because there was a real need to have high-quality animations and dynamic elements on an otherwise text-and-pictures web. It was a quick install (and Microsoft included it with IE, starting with IE4) - and it instantly made web pages more attractive, which was a breath of fresh air during the early web.

Flash's popular use as a video player only came about because Adobe slipped in video capability right in the middle of a time when Apple, MS, and Real were all vying for the easy-to-use browser plugin market. Suddenly someone realized that everyone had Flash player, which suddenly introduced video support, then Youtube came out, and then virtually overnight Flash became "the way" to play video online.

Flash's popular use as a web app platform (cartoons, games, etc.) also came about at a time when the "interactive web" was really taking off and web devs quickly realized that to get a Java app up and running that looked good and worked well was next to impossible - and to try to do the same thing with just HTML and JavaScript was even harder given browser incompatibilities - not to mention you pretty much were giving away your source code if you decided to do so. In fact, by this logic there are plenty of websites out there that are nothing more than image galleries that are still done in Flash because the web dev feels that the site will look better in Flash vs. just doing it in HTML.

So we have three main uses for Flash:

1. Embedded ads, animations and hover buttons
2. Embedded video
3. Fully "Interactive" web sites or applications that look good in most browsers.

It is pretty obvious based on this list why Apple couldn't care less about Flash. If it were just about animations they would have licensed SWF from Adobe and implemented it natively in Safari in the same manner that they implemented animated GIFs. However, it's not. It's about implementing all three or none of them.

Flash for embedded video purposes is really only a stopgap because MS, Apple, and Real never really agreed on anything, and HTML5 seems just as good for this purpose, especially since IE9 will natively support HTML5 video. Mozilla will figure out a way to play H.264 in Firefox, trust me on this one. My guess is that for websites that just need embedded video, it will eventually no longer make sense to choose Flash if it means your video will play everywhere, even on mobile devices.

Interactive websites, well, this is where Apple is drawing a line, evening know ing that they are blacklisting a very broad category of websites (from say, a mortgage calculator to a complex 3D game) - but they know that Flash on a mobile device will more than likely feel "lousy" on a phone to the point of frustration. Heck, sometimes Flash apps are lousy on a PC, too. Apple wants everyone walking away from the iPhone saying, "wow, that was really fun and easy to use" - not complaining how the text was too small or that scrolling around some 1024x768 Flash app was annoying. They know that users are more offended by empty promises then no promises (yes! our device supports Flash... well sort of, except large apps, or hovering, or video camera support, etc...) Apple is one of few companies left today that admit that the web may be the future, but sometimes the web browser just isn't the right place for some applications. They would rather see more basic web apps, or have you write a device-specific app, (which, I think, you can compile and submit to the App Store using the latest version of Flash.) From a developer's standpoint, it is harder, more annoying, and more expensive to write a native application for any platform, but Apple knows that for a large majority of the cases the native app from the user's perspective will be more enjoyable to use over the same app made in Flash, Java, or HTML+AJAX. This is a pretty large gamble on Apple's part, because while this is true, this just means that fewer apps will be available for their platform, even if they are crappy.

Just a few hover buttons, etc. are rarely done with Flash anymore (they used be done in Java, remember that!) these days, so this is no longer a concern. With regards to advertising, I suppose Apple is just making a judgement call that no one will miss embedded animated advertising on their mobile devices.

The biggest sufferers here are the web sites that are "accidentally" 100% Flash, e.g. Subaru.com's "build your own" page (here). Attractive sites like this are still hard to build using HTML+JS, but wouldn't make sense to make an app out of, either. I don't even think HTML5 makes building "subaru.com" any easier, either. Perhaps some new "Dreamweaver of the future" will come along that will make creating awesome, animated, standards-compliant HTML5 websites possible with the click of a mouse, but I doubt it will be from Adobe. I expect this gap to last for awhile, but even at that I don't think it presents any major issues. Sites like subaru.com are an exception to most websites, and will almost definitely stay that way for awhile. So we'll see sites being developed for more than one platform (nothing new here), or sometimes websites just won't work on Apple hardware (nothing new here either). In both cases, companies follow the money and do what they need to do to get their content across, so I'm not worried about usability - it really hasn't affected my usage of the iPhone in a very negative way.

Adobe could have worked with Apple to make a custom Flash player that better supported the iPhone display or multi-touch, met battery level standards, etc., but my guess is that it never happened because Adobe didn't want to make the investment or bow to Apple's bidding. Adobe wants to make Flash a universal platform, so they're going to invest more in creating a Flash player that is more suited to various devices but on their terms. Personally speaking, I think this is a mistake given Sun attempted this with J2ME, and going head-to-head will only further fragment the existing market while Apple slowly, unaffected, builds an ecosystem of native apps. Whether this is better or worse for the common good, I do not know. For the foreseeable future, I think plain HTML is still the only safe bet for content that "works" on all devices.

When the iPhone came out the big selling point was that it was "the whole web" so there is no reason to believe that Apple wouldn't at least contemplate providing support for a significant fraction of the web's content. This is hardly a "war", it is really just two companies going in different directions.
 
I would have bought an iMac, but after reading all of the posts on here about things not working that run great on my PC, I haven't dared

Haha, paranoid much!

You do realise that this is a site where people come for help with their problems, and that the problems reported here probably represent less than 1% of the Mac install base?

If you want an iMac just buy one!
 
kevin, a very level-headed and well-informed post! Thanks for this.

The biggest sufferers here are the web sites that are "accidentally" 100% Flash, e.g. Subaru.com. Attractive sites like this are still hard to build using HTML+JS, but wouldn't make sense to make an app out of, either. I don't even think HTML5 makes building "subaru.com" any easier, either.

One big flaw, however, is this point. Subaru.com doesn't appear to be using Flash, and neither is Apple.com, which is highly interactive.

Apple's website proves that. Sites created almost entirely in Flash, are usually built by designers with no real web experience, and suffer in all sorts of areas because of it.
 
kevin, a very level-headed and well-informed post! Thanks for this.

One big flaw, however, is this point. Subaru.com doesn't appear to be using Flash, and neither is Apple.com, which is highly interactive.

Thanks!

Check out the "build your own" link under tools. This is the type of site I was referring to. I'll add a link to the post.
 
One big flaw, however, is this point. Subaru.com doesn't appear to be using Flash, and neither is Apple.com, which is highly interactive.

Let me go on to say that while creating interactive sites CAN be done with web technologies, they are nowhere near as easy as using Flash. Of course, Adobe could be a real hero here and turn Flash into a technology for creating interactive pages using web technologies (canvas, svg, ajax, javascript, HTML5, etc).

If Adobe did that, they would instantly become my favorite company. Ok, maybe second favorite.
 
This whole Flash "war" makes me laugh. You know, the war between Apple and Adobe's Flash product.

[...]

Thanks for an excellent post, and free of fanboy rhetoric!

I think one other area that's being overlooked is DRM-protected video streaming. For example NetFlix "watch it now" feature. I believe HTML5 video has no framework for DRM overlay.. So while HTML5 will eventually replace Flash for public domain / YouTube type streaming.. it's never going to be acceptable to the movie studios. So we are back to Flash or Silverlight.

Silverlight works great on Mac by the way, much better than Flash.

Anyway, those who think that Flash/Silverlight will be completely replaced by HTML5 are either dreaming or delusional.
 
Thanks!

Check out the "build your own" link under tools. This is the type of site I was referring to. I'll add a link to the post.

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/build/index.html

Ok, yeah I see that page now. Yes, that is built with Flash, but nothing about the functionality prohibits it from being a nice jQuery site (which the home page is). In fact, I'd bet some cash that even that page is being converted right now by Subaru's obviously very capable web dev team.
 
I hope Google will have a preference to turn the plugin on/off.

For 95% of my browsing I don't want flash, not because Steve says it's dead, but because it consumes resources and in most cases just slows down my browsing experience.

For me, the "resource" is network bandwidth. I live in Stone Age America, with a 1.7 Mbps limit. Flash doesn't bother me for CPU/memory usage, but those megabytes add up....

(I disable both Flash and Silverlight for this reason, and manually turn them on if there's content I want to see...)


Better yet, maybe Google will allow you to make a allow/block list of sites where flash will work or not.

For example: Disable Flash on digg.com, most news sites, etc.
Allow Flash plugin on Hulu, NBC.com, ABC.com, etc...

Great idea - generalize the lists of trusted/untrusted sites to allow plugin specific site lists!
 
I thought Google was about open standards? This is about as opposite as you can get.
 
Thanks for an excellent post, and free of fanboy rhetoric!

I think one other area that's being overlooked is DRM-protected video streaming. For example NetFlix "watch it now" feature. I believe HTML5 video has no framework for DRM overlay.. So while HTML5 will eventually replace Flash for public domain / YouTube type streaming.. it's never going to be acceptable to the movie studios. So we are back to Flash or Silverlight.

Silverlight works great on Mac by the way, much better than Flash.

Anyway, those who think that Flash/Silverlight will be completely replaced by HTML5 are either dreaming or delusional.

With HTML5 in it's current state you can protect your content fairly easily, the only problem is that it's still as easy to circumvent as flash.
 
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