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Xerox PARC had the GUI before Apple did. Apple took that concept and then improved and polished it. They didn't invent a great deal. Also, look up the LG Prada. Looked a lot like the iPhone before the iPhone was announced. I'm not saying that Apple doesn't do a good job on their products. I'm saying they aren't generally big, wild innovators. They're simply good at succeeding where others have failed.

And this is true. Apple does a good job with integration and UI. It doesn't hurt that Apple's marketing team is among the best in the business.

You guys need to look up the term innovation. It's not about who makes things first, its how they are used. Innovation and invention are really very similar.

Every step forward in any field from art to technology is always as someone said "on the shoulders" of those before them. Did Picasso invent cubism? No, but he took it to the next level. Did MS invent the computer? No, but the took it to a new place. That's innovation. Splitting hairs of innovation and invention is a silly waste of time. They are wrapped up together. Especially today in tech where there are so many elements involved, from endless ideas to thousands of physical components.

Apple can be seen just as much an inventor/innovator as any other company. And with the creation of products like the iPod or iPhone you can easily call them wildly innovative. Sure there were smart phones before the iPhone but you can say that Apple created the next gen smartphone - that is a combination of invention (actual patents) and innovation (improving upon know tech).
 
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And a stylus GUI and the iOS springboard aren't that different really... .

In that case, there's no really need to discuss this further as it will just descend into a further argument of semantics. You think the iOS GUI was just a ho-hum step up because it still has grids and uses a pointer. To me that's pretty absurd having used Maemo (N810) and Windows Mobile devices, as well as the LG Prada.

But it is a rather subjective point. I personally do think the iOS was a revolutionary UI that completely changed the landscape of the mobile GUI but then again, your definition of revolutionary seems different. I just believe it's pretty wild not to admit that Apple completely changed the UI landscape with the iOS GUI while you seem to get stuck on the point that it has grids of icons and uses a pointing device (finger).
 
http://brianshall.com/content/google-are-*******

"Android, you remember, being the smartphone platform Google purchased, spent billions on, gave away -- to destroy others, including those who innovate -- and cut deals with giant carriers to ensure a *non neutral* Internet to benefit..the users? Come on. To benefit Google, obviously.

Which begs the question:

If you have a monopoly business and generate monopoly profits and take those monopoly profits to another industry and *gave away* what your competitors (must) charge for, which led you to quickly capture the *dominant* market share, would you...

...whine like a bitch?"
 
But it is a rather subjective point. I personally do think the iOS was a revolutionary UI that completely changed the landscape of the mobile GUI but then again, your definition of revolutionary seems different. I just believe it's pretty wild not to admit that Apple completely changed the UI landscape with the iOS GUI while you seem to get stuck on the point that it has grids of icons and uses a pointing device (finger).

There was another reason iOS was fundamentally different to what came before it. The smartphone implementation changed completely from "feature phone" (telephone + apps) to a mobile computing platform which also happened to have phone functionality.

With regards to Apple being an innovative company : In the tech industry, its often all to easy to do things, but its all too often difficult to do them right. Apple spends considerable amounts of times (read - years of design and refining). To get things right. Apple is not a magical company. Its a company which puts in a lot of hard work to actually deliver a finished product. Can't really blame them if they try to stop other companies from looking over their shoulder and copy the design they've put together with a lot of blood, sweat and tears.
 
The patent war is bad for everybody, Apple included. If you are cheering because you're an Apple fan and Apple won the auction, you are shortsighted. That 4.5 billion they helped pay for it is money that could have gone into R&D to make more great products. The patent war is draining our most innovative companies dry. The worst part about it is that the tiny new companies, the ones that aren't the Apples, Googles, Microsofts, and Samsungs, they can't even step on to the playing field.
 
Still, nobody has answered my original question. At all. Nobody even tried to answer it, which was, what products does Apple bring to the table to end users that are free?

What was the point of this question? Apple offers several free products. The obvious are Safari, Webkit, iTunes, Bonjour, and Quicktime. And then there is all the soon to be iCloud services.

Apple is already plenty successful without having to sue a bunch of people with broad, obvious patents.

When has Apple sued "a bunch of people with broad, obvious patents."

Actually Apple sells your information to advertisers as well. To me it's a bit irrational to trust one multinational cooperation over another multinational cooperation but whatever floats your boat.

Is it really that hard to see the difference between Google's massive advertising business and the limited amount of information that Apple shares through iAd?

Google 'Axiotron Modbook' and then try tell me nothing looked like the iPad before 2010.

I googled it. I could still comfortably tell you nothing looked like the iPad before 2010. To see a similarity would completely ignore everything that made the iPad successful.

In the current climate, little companies are put out of business by patent suits which, according to the radio program mentioned a couple of times, costs 2-5 million dollars to defend against, or exorbitant license fees under the threat of patent suits.

Your patent system does not encourage innovation - it stifles it.

Such a weird claim. It ignores all of the benefits of patents. As well as the reality of the staggering amount of innovation the the last 20 years.

And on the other end of that spectrum you have companies that patent every concept under the sun and sue the bejeezus out of any competitor.

Eg:
"A computer-implemented method, for use in conjunction with a portable multifunction device with a touch screen display, comprises displaying a portion of page content, including a frame displaying a portion of frame content and also including other content of the page, on the touch screen display," the patent abstract reads. "An N-finger translation gesture is detected on or near the touch screen display. In response, the page content, including the displayed portion of the frame content and the other content of the page, is translated to display a new portion of page content on the touch screen display."

That's from one of Apples patents. It basically covers any touchscreen that is compatible with human skin. How is that fair?

Your summary and lack of understanding of the patent claims are the only part of the patent that is unfair.

Simple: because defeating dubious patents cost a lot of time and a lot of money money.

We just had someone quote $2-5 million to defend against a patent claim. Unless Google is expecting 1,000 to 2,000 different cases to arise out of the Nortel's patents, I think they are more worried about the legitimate patents than the dubious ones.

Apple, on the other hand, has had precisely 3 original ideas in the past 10 years.
iPhone, iPad, iTunes.

Everything else (facetime, etc) was done better by other people before Apple tried it.

If you put your hands over your eyes and shout "la, la, la..." over and over again, you can pretend that Apple didn't have any ideas at all.
 
There was another reason iOS was fundamentally different to what came before it. The smartphone implementation changed completely from "feature phone" (telephone + apps) to a mobile computing platform which also happened to have phone functionality.

With regards to Apple being an innovative company : In the tech industry, its often all to easy to do things, but its all too often difficult to do them right. Apple spends considerable amounts of times (read - years of design and refining). To get things right. Apple is not a magical company. Its a company which puts in a lot of hard work to actually deliver a finished product. Can't really blame them if they try to stop other companies from looking over their shoulder and copy the design they've put together with a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

If that's your definition of a smartphone, Handspring/Palm did it first with the Treo. Sure, Apple took the smartphone to a whole new level, but should they be paying Palm for "stealing their idea"? Of course not!

Patents are supposed to cover specific implementations of an idea, not an idea itself. However, our patent office continues to grant overly broad patents. The USPTO's mantra is "grant the patent, let them sort it out in litigation". And make no mistake about it, the only winners in this landscape are the lawyers.
 
Here, Apple and Microsoft are saying, "Don't want our stuff? Here, go get yourself your Android machine at $[x] premium more, because they want to use our patents".

Why is this bad, and why does it make absolutely no sense? Because those patents were bought, and not developed, by Apple or Microsoft.

Patents, when enforced by the original developer for his own protection, fit its original purpose. But when patents are enforced by its subsequent purchasers who benefit little from the innovation itself, and who use it only to prevent others to get to the same stage, that's just mean, and meant to stifle innovation. One can't say that Apple and Microsoft aren't unethical in what they're doing (and they should be pointed out for it), especially when they're hurting consumers instead of it just being healthy business competition.

So you have a good idea, you patent it. Now you want to use your patent in a product. You have zero big businees experience, freshly divorced (ie close to broke) so you can't get funding. Along comes whomever and tells you what a great idea you have. Here is 4.5 billion dollars. But hey, patents shouldn't be sold, so you tell them no. :rolleyes:

Senario number 2: Same as before except you notice someone using one of your patents in a device. You file a motion to block them, since they have only sold a thousand devices, you get $2,000. They stop using your patent. You lose. You could let them use it for a while, let others copy it. Several million devices are sold... You see where this is going?

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well something like "multitouch" shouldnt be able to get a patent to begin with. it should be open for anyone to use in their own way. lets smthink of it for a mokent, what is "multitouch" input with more than 1 finger, nothing more. the US patent system is flawd which shows as multitouch is only apple pattented in the US

So Xerox shouldn't have been allowed to patent the copy machine and be the only company to sell it until the patent expired ?

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buying an patent is so stupid

A comes up with something
B buys it
B has no use for it
C comes up with a great idea
B is like oh wait, i got a patent on something like that HAHA money!
poor C ... i cant afford that
D = customer will never get a chance take advantage of the invention of C

pattents = stopping innovation and opportunities for the customer

Until you personally patent something and someone offers you a few billion for it.

How the hell can C not afford it?

How does pattents (sic) stop inovation and opertunities for the customer ?
 
If you mean the old Nokia 770 and its successors, they were nothing like iOS. They felt more like a love child of Windows and Palm OS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzSRZfq0u0w




One thing I never understood: expressing love for Google at worst makes you a Fandroid or simply a Google fanboy whereas just showing a bit of bias towards Apple can conjure up all sorts personal insults based on sexual innuendos involving Steve Jobs and suicide cults.

That's cuz most fandroids are little kids who genuinely believe that google is a superhero company hell-bent on restoring order and harmony to a world decimated by the evil Apple empire.
 
To everybody saying Google is just trying to avoid the consequences of "copying the iPhone":

The patents in question were not Apple's patents. These are not patents Apple filed when creating the iPhone. These are someone else's patents. Apple just bought them. If Android is just an iPhone copy, Google did not violate these patents any more than Apple did. Eric Schmidt did not steal these ideas from Apple.

The bigger issue Google is coming out with is how ridiculous software patents can be. This isn't the only word from Google about patents recently. Many high profile employees (Theodore Tso, Matt Cutts) have recently come out against software patents. An OS is a very complicated piece of software. If something that cost millions in R&D can be undermined by a conceptual patent that cost a few thousand to file, something is wrong. Innovation lies in the implementation, not in the idea. Imagine a conceptual patent for a car that ran on tap water. Should the man who one day perfects hydrogen fuel cells in automobiles be sued because his product violates that patent? No! Yet that is the sort of things happening in the software patent wars.
 
Apple does spend money on usability testing, but what is and isn't a valid patent is legally dubious, and it's easy to argue that design patents, such as many of those owned by Apple, can stifle innovation to a greater degree than to which they promote it. It's important to protect and create worthwhile incentive for companies to innovate, but it's also important to note that protecting such ideas to such a degree makes it difficult for smaller companies and gives larger companies that have the resources to make more patents to make expensive cross licensing deals with each other and squeeze out the little guy.

Software is really complex and the protection of many ideas can be extremely stifling.

At the same time, most of us aren't lawyers, and patent summaries are ridiculously complex and self-referential. The documents take a long time to understand properly.

On the information I have I am doubtful that many of these patents are novel. However, my opinion is formed with no legal qualification to come to that conclusion, and thus when I consider what will happen in these legal battles, I don't put my opinion up as fact; just a really vague and totally unqualified guess more for the hell of it than anything else.

Apple has lost against Kodak on patent issues, but every case involves a variety of patents, and there's no way to say Apple's failure in one case will mean failure on all the others.

On Google:

Google is going to have to deal with it to some degree. Android creates a moat to Google's castle of search (everything on the devices points to google by default). They face a huge issue in that taking a position of buying the patents outright would be expensive, but if Android becomes prohibitively expensive to implement as a result of patent issues, manufacturers will leave it.

Apple, Microsoft, et al have huge patent chests. Comparatively, Google does not.

It's a statement of opinion, reaffirming Google's opinions on the patent issues surrounding Android to manufacturers and consumers. It's a sign that Google is planning on more aggressively defending Android - most likely through IP litigation that will give Google enough of an edge to where any major competitor claiming patent issues over android will be infringing enough of Google's patents that cross licensing is the only logical option.

You can call it whining, but it isn't. It's Google sending a comfort message to stakeholders in Android & Google - and a warning to those who are taking actions against Android that Google does not intend to let such actions pass unabated.

Whether or not Google is able to effectively do so is something that only time will tell.
 
To everybody saying Google is just trying to avoid the consequences of "copying the iPhone":

The patents in question were not Apple's patents. These are not patents Apple filed when creating the iPhone. These are someone else's patents. Apple just bought them. If Android is just an iPhone copy, Google did not violate these patents any more than Apple did. Eric Schmidt did not steal these ideas from Apple.

The bigger issue Google is coming out with is how ridiculous software patents can be. This isn't the only word from Google about patents recently. Many high profile employees (Theodore Tso, Matt Cutts) have recently come out against software patents. An OS is a very complicated piece of software. If something that cost millions in R&D can be undermined by a conceptual patent that cost a few thousand to file, something is wrong. Innovation lies in the implementation, not in the idea. Imagine a conceptual patent for a car that ran on tap water. Should the man who one day perfects hydrogen fuel cells in automobiles be sued because his product violates that patent? No! Yet that is the sort of things happening in the software patent wars.

so you truly believe that if Google had won these patents, and Apple/Microsoft/whoever else used them without permission, that Google would say "Hurrah for innovation!!"?

Gimme a break. Google is upset, because they know that they knowingly infringed and their plan from the beginning was to fight it out in court. These cute little letters from their lawyers and Schmidt saying "I'm not worried" are just PR, save-face moves. The courts will ultimately decide, and so far it seems like the courts are not going to side with Google.
 
Microsoft general counsel notes that Google was offered to joint bid on the patents.

To which Google politely declined.

Doesn't sound very hostile does it? Sounds more like whining. Speaking of, here is a good post on the hypocrisy of Google.

Which begs the question:
If you have a monopoly business and generate monopoly profits and take those monopoly profits to another industry and *gave away* what your competitors (must) charge for, which led you to quickly capture the *dominant* market share, would you...
...whine like a b***h?
 
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Oh come on, Apples entire business is based on what they ripped off Xerox back in the '80s.
It's that time in the thread (if it hasn't been done already) to point out that Xerox WAS compensated by Apple - but NOT by Microsoft around all of this (and that MS raided the team for talent as well).

Xerox - a copying company dabbling in computing - lacked either the vision or the business acumen to follow up on what they'd developed, so not to feel sorry for them (and they - unlike many "titans" of the time - have survived as an independent company to this day, so no tears to shed all in all.)
 
But it is a rather subjective point. I personally do think the iOS was an evolutionary UI

I think you have an extra r there. See how that works better.

iOS's UI was quite revolutionary so much as a good mix of what was out there adapted to the particular hardware it ran on (a capacitive touch screen).
 
I think you have an extra r there. See how that works better.

iOS's UI was quite revolutionary so much as a good mix of what was out there adapted to the particular hardware it ran on (a capacitive touch screen).

Everything is based on what already exists. That's not really an argument of revolutionary versus evolutionary. The iOS UI revolutionized the mobile phone industry. It's really disingenuous to argue otherwise.
 
When has Apple sued "a bunch of people with broad, obvious patents."

Take a look at the patents they are currently suing HTC over. Broad and obvious - even in the '90.

Is it really that hard to see the difference between Google's massive advertising business and the limited amount of information that Apple shares through iAd?

Yes. You're saying Apple are more ethical because they are less successful than Google in this area?
 
Sigh

Google likely has more to worry about from the java/oracle mess they are currently in (didn't the judge just issue some statement about it looking like willful infringement on Google's part, with emails to back it up). And the Android security issues, which seem to pop up every day now.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure many will) but it does not seem that Apple has sued very often over patents. I know there are some, but most of their stuff seems to be trademark/design. They get sued over patents quite often, however. Every big company will do whatever they can get away with - its a sad fact that nobody gets to the top being overly nice.

There is something I think most sane people can agree on coming out of this. Notice how Microsoft has become almost an after thought. Nice.... Now if we can just get these piece of crap cheap PCs that rarely work for more than 2 weeks at a time thanks to Windows self destructing (almost brand new, fast, high ram, big HD Dells) off my desk!
 
Take a look at the patents they are currently suing HTC over. Broad and obvious - even in the '90.

I have taken a look at some of them. Have you? Which patent would you consider overly broad? Pick one. We can look in to the actual claims. You know, instead of just making overly broad claims. :)

Which patent was obvious in the 90s? If it was so obvious, why did nobody describe or implement it before 2007?

Yes. You're saying Apple are more ethical because they are less successful than Google in this area?

I didn't claim that Apple is more ethical than anybody. I just noted the huge difference in the amount of data collected and sold by Google than Apple. Personally, I prefer less than more.
 
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I have taken a look at some of them. Have you? Which patent would you consider overly broad? Which patent was obvious in the 90s? If it was so obvious, why did nobody describe or implement it before 2007?

The one about analyzing free form text by a fairly generic and obvious architecture. Also, Lotus had already implemented something very similar some years before.

The other patent is difficult to understand but it seems to be describing some sort of demuxer. Pretty much any mediaplayer, software or hardware, seems to be "in breach" of this patent.

Those are the only two patents that weren't thrown out by ITC, AFAIK.


I didn't claim that Apple is more ethical than anybody. I just noted the huge difference in the amount of data collected and sold by Google than Apple. Personally, I prefer less than more.

How do you know what data Apple collects? Do you think iCloud will be analyzed by Apple in order to get more interesting data on you? I do.
 
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Ha,ha. Google should have stayed in the web business instead of trying to copy technology that wasn't theirs and takeover the mobile hardware space. Trying to pull together a pity party at this point is just pathetic. I have not one ounce of sympathy Google and I think it's time for Android (cheap facsimile of the iOS) to go. I suspect Apple's HTC win and all of the new touch screen patents Apple was awarded last month must have dug/are digging deeper than they were expecting. With HTC pushing advertising money into their more old school Blackberry style phone with a facebook button now I can where the problem lies. Every smartphone manufacturer making a product that needs a finger to scroll up and down is screwed. Even RIM will probably have to go back to using a stylus at some point.
 
Microsoft general counsel notes that Google was offered to joint bid on the patents.

To which Google politely declined.

Doesn't sound very hostile does it? Sounds more like whining. Speaking of, here is a good post on the hypocrisy of Google.

Interesting. Putting aside the ethics of these aggressive patent purchases, this whole situation sounds alot like a strategic error on the part of Google.

It seems like Google knew MS was trying to pull multiple bidders together on this acquisition. Yet they said no and decided to go it alone. Google must have had a feeling or even known MS was going to shop this around to other companies. Were they just hoping MS would give up or come up short on the bid.

I wonder if MS wasn't originally intent on freezing out Apple on this deal, but once Google walked away it made just as much sense to team up with Apple to freeze out Google?
 
Microsoft general counsel notes that Google was offered to joint bid on the patents.

To which Google politely declined.

We are not privy to the complete legal terms a joint bid would have been under. Therefore, we have no ability to tell if Microsoft imposed onerous terms on a joint bid that were untenable for Google.

As such, making a conclusion that Google was hypocritical on the fact that Google was offered a joint bid and refused it is based solely on the few facts available and not the multitude of factors that go into a business deal.

Doesn't sound very hostile does it? Sounds more like whining. Speaking of, here is a good post on the hypocrisy of Google.

Apple implements features from products and their T&Cs for the app store prohibit applications that "duplicate functionality". You can make many of the same arguments. Let's break it down, list by list.

Hall said:
Yelp gets popular? Copy their info, shove Yelp to the bottom of the page and put Google Places and reviews at the top.

Google makes changes to their algorithm periodically, and Google Places aggregates reviews. If Yelp provides better reviews, users will go to Yelp instead of Googling it, and Google will lose out on the search traffic/analytics/potential ad clicks related to search terms. Don't see the problem with this.

Hall said:
Groupon won't sell? Spend billions from other businesses to destroy them.
If Groupon won't sell and Google is interested in a sudden booming industry as a potential revenue source...why not create their own version of a deal site? Also, creating a deal site to make money/succeed and creating a deal site to "destroy them" are not necessarily mutual.

Hall said:
Twitter and Facebook innovate on search? Take their content, whine when they try and stop you then spend billions to prevent their growth and hopefully destroy them.
Both Twitter and Facebook made deals with Google to get deeper search integration. Twitter & Facebook appearing as social results in Google is not only beneficial to google; it drives traffic from Google searches to those sites in greater quantities. It improves the user experience as they get relevant social media results from popular sites.

If the sites don't want to renew and Google believes it huts the user experience, they can argue on behalf of their users.

Hall said:
Apple working on a touchscreen smartphone? Spend billions from another business and copy everything you can, down to swipes and apps.

This is pretty generic. By Apps does he mean applications on mobile phones, or specific examples that he does not provide?

As far as swipes go...well, that's an issue for the courts. On a capacitive touchscreen, a swipe strikes me as the natural maneuver for operations. But we'll see. I would argue that this is further based in fact than other claims, but the question of whether that should be criticized (noticing intuitive implementations and improving your user experience) is a multifaceted one.

Hall said:
Need a smartphone operating system with Java. Take Java and use it for your own ends.
I'm not going to try to defend this as it hasn't fully panned out legally. I will acknowledge that the evidence keeps making it look worse and worse for Google over time and that there are some valid criticisms of that statement. The emails released seem to indicate Google knew this in the Oracle case and Google thought they needed a license at some point. I haven't heard anything of Google providing later documentation that would cause a rational reason for them to change that belief.

Hall said:
Need a location mapping technology and Skyhook won't sell? Spend billions from your monopoly profits and strongarm your partners and drive Skyhook out of business.
Debatable. On one hand, Google has considerable influence. On the other, Google doesn't require certification to ship an Android device (just to do so with Google apps), and Skyhook does cut out data that is useful to Google in improving the service and Skyhook could (under the hood, away from the eyes of many consumers) cause major compatibility/accuracy headaches that would reflect poorly on Google's products that use location services, and Google would be powerless to fix them - they'd be at Skyhook's mercy. So this one is somewhat disingenuous.

Hall said:
Buy up the big travel search sites.
Apple didn't buy Lala, Microsoft didn't buy Skype, etc... buyouts are baaaaad and can't be a good way to utilize existing innovation, a first mover's advantage, and a solid codebase to proceed on innovating further rather than reinventing the wheel.

Hall said:
Claim you are open source but share nothing related to what your business claims to be about -- search, and nothing related to how you make your money -- advertising
.

Most companies aren't fully open source. To give away such secrets would destroy Google. This is really a ridiculous argument.

Hall said:
Claim you are open and standards based but control who gets access to your smartphone operating system
If you want to be Google certified, you have to pass their tests for consistency, security, stability, etc...your device reflects on Google if it carries such branding and their apps. You can ship an Android device without said Google apps if you want, no blessing required.

The same people bitch about the fragmentation, consistency issues, etc...

Hall said:
Like all rich monopolists, they spend millions hiring high priced lobbyists and public relations teams inside the Beltway -- for their direct benefit
Any business uses lobbyists. If you don't, you're going to get crushed by the competition. It's just the nature of things, unfortunately.

I am sure Apple has lobbyists too. As do most big corporations.
 
It seems like Google knew MS was trying to pull multiple bidders together on this acquisition. Yet they said no and decided to go it alone. Google must have had a feeling or even known MS was going to shop this around to other companies. Were they just hoping MS would give up or come up short on the bid.

I don't think Google even bid on Novell's patents.
 
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