Google/Motorola Developing Flagship Phone to Compete with Apple and Samsung

[TheNextBigThing]

Love to see what they come up with. I just purchased my first Android phone after being fed up with the stale os that iOS provides and the small "huge" 4" screen that was suppose to impress me and others. I bought a Galaxy Note 2 and love it. It's fast and responsive and the Samsung touch wiz offers gestures make the phone much more impressive than the standard phone. 4.1 so far in the almost 2 weeks since I have bough it has been fast, stable and bug free. The only way I would go back to iOS if if Apple released a phablet of their own. I am tempted to sell my iPad but will keep it for iOS exclusives like Infinity Blade Dungeons. Apple needs to reinvent it's OS for phones as people are going to get tired of the same old OS.

I fully realize I'm posting in a cyclone of iOS fanbois, but I have to say, Android has come a LONG way since 4.0. Jellybean is just fantastic.

I had a Nexus 4, but sold it because my Note 2 is just stellar. I hate my work 4S and use it for just that, work stuff. It's boring and stale. The fun side of everything (and productivity, frankly) is given to my Note 2. It just does everything SO well and is a pleasure to use.

Not starting a flame war here, but if you are stuck thinking Android = 2.3 Gingerbread, I'd highly recommend trying out a modern Android phone before knee-jerking and saying Android is a laggy, unstable mess. It simply isn't true anymore. iOS is extremely boring after using Jellybean.

Apple has genuine cause for concern, IMO. Android is IMO far superior than iOS, and it's getting better all the time. I will buy the Moto/Google phone the day it's released. So yeah, I've deserted iOS and do not miss it one single bit. I stood in line for the OG 8gig EDGE iPhone. Got every version since...then I found Android. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Android has come such a long way in a short period of time.

Back to trashing Android everyone. Sorry to disrupt the blind worshiping.

Galaxy Note 2 is a real proof on why android Jelly bean is a milestone.

It took Samsung two years to make their Galaxy phones (i.e. S3 and Note 2) at par (if not exceeding) with Apple's iPhone. It's interesting to know how many years will it take for Google to catch up.

 

[Kanunu]

If Google wants to continue to have any influence over mobile, they've got to get into the hardware business and start pumping out phones at or below cost,

That only works if Motorola can make a phone that lasts for more than a year. If their phone is a piece of junk in 12 months how long can they keep up sales?

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Do you still think Nexus 7 make money for Google?

Why don't you read what I said and then read what you said previously (what I was quoting). You could have saved yourself the lengthy reply.

I don't for a second think that Google don't make much off the Nexus devices, in fact they might even break even and this is what is supported by most analysts.

But you, being a supporter of a certain phone couldn't help yourself. You had exaggerate. You had use hyperbole. You had to claim that Google loses money on each and every Nexus service sold.

Nothing that you posted supported this claim and yet you had to make it, even though it flies in the face of the opinions of industry analysts and corporate sensibilities.

 

[sunspot42]

The Whole World Doesn't Revolve Around You

Is this a serious post? Id never buy a friggin Amazon phone...lol, that is a joke imo. Id never buy a Kindle tablet either. I think your whole post is filled with nonsense to be honest.

Fortunately, the whole world does not revolve around you and what you want.

The reality is, Amazon is selling more tablets than anyone except Apple, and when their (likely free) phone drops, they'll instantly leapfrog all of the smaller manufacturers and pop into the top three as well. At that point, it's only a matter of time before they crush Samsung's margins and force them out of the market as well.

Apple will be harder to get rid of, since they sell a premium product and have their own ecosystem. If Google can establish itself as a hardware manufacturer before that time, they could also withstand the onslaught. If not... Well, ask Palm how being an also-ran in a market you created worked out.

It's the ecosystem, stupid.

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That only works if Motorola can make a phone that lasts for more than a year. If their phone is a piece of junk in 12 months how long can they keep up sales?

Well, that's a legitimate question. Can Google make the transition to respectable hardware manufacturer before Amazon crushes Samsung's nuts?

That remains to be seen...

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Didn't you ask what is the real benefit of forking an Android? It is all about money

Money? Google has invested billions in setting up the Android ecosystem The heavy lifting is already done for Samsung and Samsung are making more money off Android than they know what to do with.

Samsung has an OS. It failed because of a lack of ecosystem.

Let's work this scenario that you are claiming out:

1. Google starts making their own hardware through Motorola.
2. Samsung is so threatened by this competition that they fork Android.
3. This is even though they are currently more than happy to make cost price Nexus devices which compete directly with their much more expensive flagship phones.
4. Samsung risks hundreds of millions or billions in creating an ecosystem to match Googles whilst quite possibly alienating a good portion of the Android customers that have made them what they are today
5. End result is that Samsung is again still in competition with Google, but now they are also in competition with Android. And all this in a already crowded market, with a new OS, with a new and most likely inferior ecosystem.
6. Samsung spend years getting back to the same place they were already at whilst aligned with Google.

Is this what you are claiming?

If so, why do Samsung participate in the Nexus program?

Why do they help Google make devices that they know will earn them no profit (your words.. remember) whilst at the same time compete with, but undercut their premium devices by almost half the retail cost?

How about my scenario, which is supported by history and the realities of the market place.

1. Google makes devices through Motorola.
2. Samsung's record sales continue, due to the fact that they have already proven they can differentiate their Android devices in an already crowded marketplace through their software customisations and they don't risk losing their already loyal followers.
3. Samsung continues to ride the massively profitable Google Gravy Train and does so without spending the hideous amounts of money required to set up their own ecosystem.

Think about the scenario you are proposing for a moment. You know, the one where Samsung overreacts to the perceived threat of competition. Then, out of spite to the source of the threat and to the detriment of their loyal followers, they invest a large amount of money to create an inferior alternative. Samsung ends up humiliated.

Does that sound familiar to you? Can you see how your scenario is almost a carbon copy of how Apple dealt with the perceived threat of Maps? How'd that turn out for them?

The final reason this would be a bad idea is that Samsung is not, and has never been, a software company.

 

[Oletros]

Android fragmentation keeps heading in the worse direction. Companies WILL fork Android, its only a question of time.

Forks can go either direction, for the good or for the bad. I have been on both sides of it, I have had my projects forked and I have forked other projects.

In the end, you always get a different product that is rarely compatible with each other.

2 years talking about Android doomed because fragmentation and still waiting that fall.

Cam you explain how will benefit Samsung forking Android and losing all the ecosystem?

 

[louis.b]

2 years talking about Android doomed because fragmentation and still waiting that fall.

Cam you explain how will benefit Samsung forking Android and losing all the ecosystem?

Because then Samsung can have more leeway with whatever they want to do whenever they want to do so. They can push whatever functions/ softwares/ apps/ etc. Look at Amazon.

But you may disagree. This is an Apple forum, wherever people are allowed to have different opinions w/out being called names.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Android fragmentation keeps heading in the worse direction. Companies WILL fork Android, its only a question of time.

Haha. So your view is that the very same companies that are responsible for the "fragmentation" that exists in Android currently, will be so outraged by this supposed "fragmentation" that they will fork the Android code fragmenting things even further?

I've been using Android for going on three years and the issue of fragmentation is so massively overblown both from a consumer point of view and development.

IF anyone does fork Android it won't be due to "fragmentation".

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Look at Amazon.

How are Amazon a valid comparison?

1. Amazon had no pre existing investment in Android prior to entering the market.
2. Amazon had no preexisting relationship with Google
3. Amazon didn't have millions of existing Android users to alienate with their fork.
4. Amazon had a massive content ecosystem ready and waiting to go.
5. Amazon make their money from content and services, not hardware and so are more like Google. Samsung almost exclusively make their money from hardware and so their model is closer to Apple.
6. Amazon weren't already making billions per quarter in profit from Android.
7. Samsung has a lot more to lose if they fail.

 

[darkazcura]

The Nexus phone line has never been set to be one of the best phones. It has never had the best specs and it isnt advertized. Its always been a developer phone but has caught on by consumers but they still dont advertize it and you can only get a Nexus 4 from the Google Play Store or at T-Mmobile and not all T-Mobile stores have them. None here in Las Vegas do.

I wouldn't say that is completely true. The Nexus One was fairly/very competitive with top phones at the time of its release. The Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus were pretty subpar hardware wise (Galaxy Nexus relatively better, though). The Nexus 4, though, is a beast of a phone. I'm sure there are a couple phones that beat it benchmark wise, but the Nexus 4 is up there.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Samesung won't be able to compete with this, and Google knows it. Just look at how much better Amazon is doing in the tablet market than Samsung.

What do you mean by "doing better"? If you mean by raw tablet sales, then you're right, but completely missing the point. By all accounts, Amazon make little to nothing off their tablets and they only do it because each one sold represents a potential customer for their content.

Samsung isn't in this market. They are profiting from their hardware sales and they don't have a content ecosystem. They are banking on people paying a premium for premium hardware. This is exactly the same reason why Apple can charge the prices they do.

If Google wants to continue to have any influence over mobile, they've got to get into the hardware business and start pumping out phones at or below cost,

huh? You're making it sound like Google is in a vulnerable spot. Android has 75-80% of the worldwide smart phone market. Forget about Google, once Google can start getting the Nexus 4/7/10 out in the right quantities it's Amazon that need to be worried.

The last thing you need to remember is that except for Kindle, Amazon is pretty much dead outside of the US.

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I wouldn't say that is completely true. The Nexus One was fairly/very competitive with top phones

You're understating this. When the Nexus One was released in January 2010 it was significantly better than any other Android phone on the market.

Regardless of this, the Nexus line has always been about the software.

 

[thekev]

Didn't you ask what is the real benefit of forking an Android? It is all about money

With all of the hypothetical discussions between corporate management combined with fork predictions created in these threads, I'm surprised no one has made a "Fork you" joke.

 

[rmwebs]

Im actually extremely curious as to how you think the S3 performs better then the iPhone 5. Games on iPhone 5 and even the 4S run so much better and smoother then any other Android phone, and iOS has been extremely fluid and speedy for a long time. Web browsing is quicker on the i5 and the browser on iOS is still unmatched by any other mobile platform. It is obvious that iOS is a much more efficient OS in terms of utilizing the hardware given. But in no way am I saying the S3 is slow, its actually a quick phone but a iPhone just feels and runs smoother then any Android phone

Well my own usage is experience during development on both handsets. Whilst I've found apps generally install and launch quicker on the iPhone 5, the S3 has had the edge on performance in most cases (again this is based on my own usage of both handsets).

However the post you quoted of mine was perhaps slightly generoud to the S3. Performance wise when you take different games, apps, tasks, etc they are about level - there is no standout winner on an overall scale.

Geekbench shows the S3 as being faster than the 5 in some tests, then will show the 5 being faster than the S3 in other tests. They are so closely matched that the actual devices could even be ruled out of the argument of which is best.

The iPhone has a HiDPI display, whilst th S3 has a (larger) AMOLED screen, and whilst the 5 can display colours ever so slightly better, the S3 has the ability to show much deeper black levels.

It's going to be 100% down to personal preference. I could list off things about the handsets that are better (e.g iPhone has a nice metal back, S3 has a bater camera, etc) but its really not going to make a scrap of difference.

OS wise, yes, Android 4.x does pip iOS6 to the top (IMO) however only *just* and only because it's not locked down, and has more features embedded into the actual OS (e.g, for those who want/need them, widgets).

That being said, I'm still using my iPhone 5 as my *main* phone, simply because I was in the iOS ecosystem before the Android one, and thus already have all my apps and such. The S3 is mainly for development for me.

 

[Bantz]

Because then Samsung can have more leeway with whatever they want to do whenever they want to do so. They can push whatever functions/ softwares/ apps/ etc. Look at Amazon.

But you may disagree because iphone sucks. This is an Apple forum, wherever people are allowed to have different opinions w/out being called names.

They already seem to do what they want such as putting touch wiz on their phones and they even have a Samsung only app store.

 

[rmwebs]

Because then Samsung can have more leeway with whatever they want to do whenever they want to do so. They can push whatever functions/ softwares/ apps/ etc. Look at Amazon.

But you may disagree. This is an Apple forum, wherever people are allowed to have different opinions w/out being called names.

Whilst they may fork it, I personally think they will just carry on as normal. They have their own 'layer' they put on top of the base OS anyway, and as it stands I highly doubt they have the right people in place to take over an entire OS development. Maybe when "Bada" eventually gets discontinued, but even then, that was a very small team working on that.

If they were to fork it, they would need to drop Google Maps, Youtube, Search, rebuild the in-built OS search, rebuild the notification system (it runs through Google servers) and anything else 'built' on Google, or part of the 'GAPPS' bundle that they license from Google.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

This ****'s about to get interesting.

Given Android is very much on a stable, non-fragmented heading now (the latest Android builds have come on leaps and bounds), this could actually be a heck of a lot more successful than the previous attempts.

Apple needs to up their game - Android is now the better OS, undeniably with the likes of the S3 and Note.

It's only a recent change however, but certainly a worrying one for Apple.

Please speak for yourself - I have seen S3/Notes and Android phones and Google/Samsung/Motorola et al. should keep that plastic and fragmented garbage miles away from me.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

That only works if Motorola can make a phone that lasts for more than a year. If their phone is a piece of junk in 12 months how long can they keep up sales?

My experience is that Motorola are pretty good on the hardware side of things.

 

[KnightWRX]

Didn't you ask what is the real benefit of forking an Android? It is all about money

Your post had nothing about the advantages of a fork of Android, only the advantages Samsung already has in the 2 other OS platforms it already has, bada and Tizen.

There is no tangible benefits to forking Android. Again, your rant had nothing to do with my post.

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Because then Samsung can have more leeway with whatever they want to do whenever they want to do so. They can push whatever functions/ softwares/ apps/ etc. Look at Amazon.

But you may disagree. This is an Apple forum, wherever people are allowed to have different opinions w/out being called names.

Again folks : Samsung already has 2 mobile OSes. What benefit to they gain from forking Android ? Remember, forking Android means they get an OS, that's it. Nothing else.

What benefit do they gain from forking Android over just pushing bada or Tizen ?

None of you "Samsung will fork Android!" people have yet to even address this simple issue.

 

[pedromartins]

Did you even bother looking at that review you just linked to?

The only comparison against the S3 they are showing, is a browser comparison on the stock browser, using SunSpider and BrowserMark. Hardly a scientific (or even real world) test of the phone's overall performance.

And no. I'm not ignorant, not am I a lier. I'm a developer who's worked with every iPhone handset, and a bunch of Android ones extensively, and work on Android and iOS every day of my working life.

Performance wise, they are damn close. Feature wise, the latest Android released just about take the lead, mainly due to having much more relaxed limitations on the OS.

Now, would you care to share what real world experience you have other than maybe having a play with one in the shop and reading a couple of reviews designed to test raw benchmark results?

Also, FYI resorting to whining and claiming someone who doesn't share your views to be ignorant and a lier just makes you look about as credible as a used car salesman.

I'm sorry, is English your first, second or even third language? I thought it might be... so I didn't specify you should've clicked on the next paget (GPU analisys) to see the rest.

They compared against the fastest phones on every test as well as older iphone models. Don't blame be for the fact that both motorola's i and htc one x are faster phones that the s3.

Stop posting BS and lies that demonstrate your ignorance as facts.

 

[Kanunu]

With all of the hypothetical discussions between corporate management combined with fork predictions created in these threads, I'm surprised no one has made a "Fork you" joke.

I think someone just did.

 

[Axious]

Please speak for yourself - I have seen S3/Notes and Android phones and Google/Samsung/Motorola et al. should keep that plastic and fragmented garbage miles away from me.

I may not be %100 correct but so far Samsung have been doing updates pretty well even the SII will be getting 4.1. So fragmentation is not a worry for their flagship phones and Motorola who is owned by Google can't keep up updates like their nexus phones did but at least they didn't use plastic so it feels great in the hand but IP5 is still king in terms of premium feel.

 

[VinegarTasters]

Google X Phone is aiming for this:

 

[patentlawyer]

I may not be %100 correct but so far Samsung have been doing updates pretty well even the SII will be getting 4.1. So fragmentation is not a worry for their flagship phones and Motorola who is owned by Google can't keep up updates like their nexus phones did but at least they didn't use plastic so it feels great in the hand but IP5 is still king in terms of premium feel.

It's "well" for android, I guess.

 

[Rogifan]

More competition = good news for consumers!

So that's why 2, maybe 3 companies dominate smartphone marketshare? These consumers that love their choices seem to be buying mostly Samsung and Apple smartphones these days.

 

[xofruitcake]

Money? Google has invested billions in setting up the Android ecosystem The heavy lifting is already done for Samsung and Samsung are making more money off Android than they know what to do with.

Samsung has an OS. It failed because of a lack of ecosystem.

Let's work this scenario that you are claiming out:

1. Google starts making their own hardware through Motorola.
2. Samsung is so threatened by this competition that they fork Android.
3. This is even though they are currently more than happy to make cost price Nexus devices which compete directly with their much more expensive flagship phones.
4. Samsung risks hundreds of millions or billions in creating an ecosystem to match Googles whilst quite possibly alienating a good portion of the Android customers that have made them what they are today
5. End result is that Samsung is again still in competition with Google, but now they are also in competition with Android. And all this in a already crowded market, with a new OS, with a new and most likely inferior ecosystem.
6. Samsung spend years getting back to the same place they were already at whilst aligned with Google.

Is this what you are claiming?

If so, why do Samsung participate in the Nexus program?

Why do they help Google make devices that they know will earn them no profit (your words.. remember) whilst at the same time compete with, but undercut their premium devices by almost half the retail cost?

How about my scenario, which is supported by history and the realities of the market place.

1. Google makes devices through Motorola.
2. Samsung's record sales continue, due to the fact that they have already proven they can differentiate their Android devices in an already crowded marketplace through their software customisations and they don't risk losing their already loyal followers.
3. Samsung continues to ride the massively profitable Google Gravy Train and does so without spending the hideous amounts of money required to set up their own ecosystem.

Think about the scenario you are proposing for a moment. You know, the one where Samsung overreacts to the perceived threat of competition. Then, out of spite to the source of the threat and to the detriment of their loyal followers, they invest a large amount of money to create an inferior alternative. Samsung ends up humiliated.

Does that sound familiar to you? Can you see how your scenario is almost a carbon copy of how Apple dealt with the perceived threat of Maps? How'd that turn out for them?

The final reason this would be a bad idea is that Samsung is not, and has never been, a software company.

heh heh, sit down and take a cup of decaf. In your analysis, how much is worth to the owner by controlling the basic platform (i.e.deciding what search engine go into the device? what map go into the device? where owner of the device will shop online?)? Amzn seems to make a different decision that what you are arguing against. They jumped the ship. Any explanation why?

As far as cost of the Nexus 4, 7, and 10 go. Everyone will have to make their own decision. I made my living by investing in stock and looking at balance sheet and I present my number. There is enough evidence for me that Google is losing money. Have you ever look at a coporate profit and loss statement before? The distribution cost alone can range from 10-15% of the msrp of a device (you know Bestbuy, walmart of the world need to pay their employee salary, store operating cost and profit too). You know the Nexus 4 has an LTE chip in it, right? But Nexus 4 is selling at non-LTE phone price. How do they break even or make money on Nexus 4? If Apple is having a hard time making money on Ipad 3, how would and Nexus 10 priced about 20% lower make money? Check out this article about the price difference between a Nexus 4 in Google play store and Europe. The $384 price difference represent Google subsidy on a phone that they sell for $299 in the play store and you still think that Google doesn't loss money on Nexus 4?

http://bgr.com/2012/11/05/google-nexus-4-subsidy-rumor-319-dollars-per-unit/

One of Google’s (GOOG) big competitive advantages in the consumer electronics space is that the company genuinely doesn’t seem to care whether it makes money selling its mobile devices since most of its money comes from search advertising revenue. And now TheNextWeb has done some good detective work that suggests the company may have taken its willingness to subsidize its devices to new heights with its Nexus 4 smartphone.

Specifically, TheNextWeb found that LG (066570) is selling the Nexus 4 to retailers in Europe for €599 ($766), or €300 ($384) more than what Google is charging for the device on its Google Play store. 9to5Google says that it wouldn’t be surprised if Google is subsidizing the Nexus 4, saying that the device has a “seemingly impossible $299 price for the 8GB model” that includes “a beautiful 1280×768 IPS Retina-quality display, insanely fast Qualcomm s4 Krait chipset with 2GB of RAM, 8 megapixel cameras and beautiful design.”

Google started the Nexus program because customization of all the vendor marginalize pure Android experience. Nexus device is supposed to the pure form of Android. And Samsung is one of the vendors that do the most customization on the customer UI side. Samsung is not a software company the same way as Apple is not a software company. They both develop their software to sell their hardware. If Amazon can make that leap to fork Android, why can't Samsung?

The Nexus device is squeezing the profitability of all Android vendor. Even if they are just break even as you claim, what is the motivation for HTC, ZTE and all other Android vendor continue to stay in the game? They have to match Nexus device pricing and that they will never make any money so long as Google try to under price the Nexus device. Work out great for Google but terrible for it's partner including Samsung. Everyone will have to look for different way to generate profit now given Google approach to pricing Nexus devices.

If you think controlling the basic platform is worth $5 a device, Samsung is at a run rate of selling 400M units a year, it will be worth about $2B a year profit - cost of supporting the fork os for them if they decide to fork. It may not be too tempting. However if they value the control of the basic platform to $15 a device (Aamzon give user an option to opt out of the advertisement for $15 on Fire HD, the potential new proft become 6B-cost of supporting the fork OS. If Samsung is selling more device in the future, the temptation will be higher and higher to fork Android

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With all of the hypothetical discussions between corporate management combined with fork predictions created in these threads, I'm surprised no one has made a "Fork you" joke.

heh heh, what is a better way to spend a Sunday morning

 

[xofruitcake]

Your post had nothing about the advantages of a fork of Android, only the advantages Samsung already has in the 2 other OS platforms it already has, bada and Tizen.

There is no tangible benefits to forking Android. Again, your rant had nothing to do with my post.

----------



Again folks : Samsung already has 2 mobile OSes. What benefit to they gain from forking Android ? Remember, forking Android means they get an OS, that's it. Nothing else.

What benefit do they gain from forking Android over just pushing bada or Tizen ?

None of you "Samsung will fork Android!" people have yet to even address this simple issue.

heh heh, if you look at Amazon Fire HD, you got your answer. It is the Android app that everyone is after. In the world of Amazon, they asked developers to submit the same app that is already in Google Play to Amazon app store. And consumer can also side-load an app if it is not in the Amazon app store. Because it is a fork of the existing Andorid, all those app will run without modification. There are tons of new mobile OS out there and none of them are catching fire (Alibaba Aliyun, Mozilla OS) because App issue. And if you simply looking at the spec, Ipad mini sales should be minimal. But as it turns out, Ipad mini seems to be the big winner in the Christmas gift sales derby and will outsell Nexus 7. And it is because of the apps and ecosystem.