Google Now Lets Apps Use Third-Party Billing in EU, Apple Yet to Announce Plans

[Unregistered 4U]

Nobody is making anyone get anything from these other payment and download options. They are just options.

They are options ONLY if the app provides it as an option. IF an app ONLY provides a third party option, then, if the user wants the functions of the app, they have no option to use Apple’s more secure and infinitely more tested solution.

Now, if Apple are allowed to REQUIRE that for every third party option that’s provided, they have to also offer the Apple option, then that would be competition. THAT would be an INCREASE of choice. If they flip from Apple’s solution to some other solution, that doesn’t increase choice or options. Or competition.

 

[JGIGS]

What?

In an iOS world with alt-stores or "side loading" a dev can completely remove their app from the Apple App store go it alone. I see all apps from major devs doing this.... amazon, meta, microsoft, epic, etc.

Why would they do this?
1) So they can increase traffic to their own web sites or store and limit exposure to competition, why allow your customers to get your app from Apple's App store where they also see competitors? Force them to your own site where they only see your own products.
2) Avoid privacy labels, alt-stores will probably not be as privacy focused as Apple.
3) Lower their own costs.

None of these things benefit consumers or lower costs for consumers.

Granted, small indie devs will probably not do this as they need the marketing power and captive audience of the Apple App store but major players do not.

Then don't use those apps. Take a stand! The likelihood of them removing their apps for the app store is highly unlikely.

I'm not sure they even can legally either but still if they can that's up to them but they'd be leaving a store that has massive traffic and many users who will only download and pay for apps through that app store, like you, especially if its easier and more seamless. Business sense would be to charge up to the 15-30% extra on the Apple app store and let the consumer decide. End of the day it's THEIR APP not Apples.

 

[icanhazmac]

Then don't use those apps.

Limits my choice, doesn't seem fair.

Take a stand!

I say the same to you, if you want alt-stores and alt-payment processors vote with YOUR wallet and go Android. If enough of you exist then Apple will lose market share and adjust their practices or fail.

The likelihood of them removing their apps for the app store is highly unlikely.

Why? An alt-store world is exactly the same as the PC/MAC world where the vast majority of major apps reside on idie sites or other stores like Steam and not on the Microsoft or Mac stores, why do you think iOS will be any different once alt-stores / side loading are legistlated into existence?

 

[icanhazmac]

Business sense would be to charge up to the 15-30% extra on the Apple app store and let the consumer decide. End of the day it's THEIR APP not Apples.

You assume that a dev can take their app off of the Apple app store and go it alone for zero cost. They will pay ~3% for payment processing then they need a web site, marketing, customer service, etc. They will not be able to discount 15-30% because those costs still exist the only difference is if they pay Apple or Google 30% for those services or they budget that percentage of sales for those costs and do it solo. They might be able to save a little on their own, maybe 10% but not any more.

 

[BootsWalking]

It is still a numbers game. How many major retailers have suffered data breaches? The more times you put your info out there the more likely you are to suffer fraud.

Not saying Apple is infallible but I am saying that if I have 50 apps under the current ecosystem I only released payment information to 1 processor. In an alt-payment processor world I may have to give 50 processors my info, that is a much larger pool of targets for hackers.

Right, but if we're talking about only a few Apple Pay competitors, like Google Pay? Same protection as Apple Pay, just some healthy competition. And the ability to choose a single solution, so the same numbers/risk calculus you described - a single service.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Getting a refund from the App store used to be easier and more seamless press. Nowadays, It has become extremely complicated.

There were several times I walked into an Apple Store with a faulty device and walked out with a brand new replacement. Those days have since passed for reasons I both understand but dislike. 😜

 

[icanhazmac]

Right, but if we're talking about only a few Apple Pay competitors, like Google Pay? Same protection as Apple Pay, just some healthy competition. And the ability to choose a single solution, so the same numbers/risk calculus you described - a single service.

Unreal!

When are people going to realize that there is NO competition in payment processing greater than perhaps 1-1.5%, that small a number will not present itself as saving to consumers! Apple and Google are currently taking 3% off their commission where they are required to accept alt-payments, a dev that chooses to go it alone might negotiate their own deal for 1.5%, do you really think they will discount an app by 1.5% if you choose their payment processor?!?

 

[GeoStructural]

It's up to Apple to stay competitive with them. Do you get it yet? Competition is the key for consumers to not have to over pay for things in the future.

Bingo!

Also, people fail to understand why Apple's approach is monopolistic, it is not as simple as "go Android... blah, blah".

 

[gaximus]

Or Apple can do it also, you will have the choice, not to use another payment processor.

What says a developer has to offer both options, they could only offer one payment processor.

 

[JGIGS]

Limits my choice, doesn't seem fair.



I say the same to you, if you want alt-stores and alt-payment processors vote with YOUR wallet and go Android. If enough of you exist then Apple will lose market share and adjust their practices or fail.



Why? An alt-store world is exactly the same as the PC/MAC world where the vast majority of major apps reside on idie sites or other stores like Steam and not on the Microsoft or Mac stores, why do you think iOS will be any different once alt-stores / side loading are legistlated into existence?

1. It doesn't limit you choices. You can get the app the way the person that owns the app wants to distribute it. You chose not to go that route that's on you. How do you think we all got apps before the app store on computers?

2. Why should I have to go out and buy a new phone? Apple going to refund my iphone purchase then? I never said I wanted to but I don't see any reason there shouldn't be a choice of where I want to get my apps from. Why should apple get to hold on to app distribution rights of things they didn't create or own?

3. Why should ios be any different then mac os? There's still a mac app store as well just never got as popular.

 

[BootsWalking]

Unreal!

When are people going to realize that there is NO competition in payment processing greater than perhaps 1-1.5%, that small a number will not present itself as saving to consumers! Apple and Google are currently taking 3% off their commission where they are required to accept alt-payments, a dev that chooses to go it alone might negotiate their own deal for 1.5%, do you really think they will discount an app by 1.5% if you choose their payment processor?!?

You're saying competition wouldn't be productive because you're predicting what future fees would be. I would proffer that we can't tell the future, esp when competition is allowed. And there are ways to compete besides just price alone. Let the market decide rather than a monopolist.

 

[GeoStructural]

There were several times I walked into an Apple Store with a faulty device and walked out with a brand new replacement. Those days have since passed for reasons I both understand but dislike. 😜

I once was able to return a Mac even after the return period had expired (by a few days), that would not fly today.

A friend was not allowed to return an iPod because of a nick on the headphones (he didn't even notice), at the end the store manager allowed him to do it only after paying for the headphones... and they pretended to keep them!!!

 

[icanhazmac]

Why should I have to go out and buy a new phone?

Because you either knowingly bought into a "walled garden" and now want to change it or you were ignorant of how Apple's ecosystem worked and that is on you. Why should the ecosystem I knowingly bought into be forced to change?

Why should ios be any different then mac os? There's still a mac app store as well just never got as popular.

You can't have it both ways. You keep saying that all apps will likely stay on the iOS store and Apple's payment processor but then say "why should iOS be different from MacOS", make up your mind.

 

[icanhazmac]

You're saying competition wouldn't be productive because you're predicting what future fees would be. I would proffer that we can't tell the future, esp when competition is allowed. And there are ways to compete besides just price alone. Let the market decide rather than a monopolist.

Even if devs could negotiate a 0% payment processing fee that would only equate to a 3% cost savings over Apple/Google, do you really think that the developer of a 1.00 app will offer it at .97 if you pay via their processor? No, they would just pocket the difference.

I agree, I cannot tell the future but my above math seems pretty solid and if we are looking to competition/benefits outside of price I fail to see what any other processor could give me that Apple doesn't but if you have ideas I'm open to hearing them.

 

[bookofxero]

As a consumer... what difference does it make if an app uses a different payment processor?

Will I have a choice between two or more payment processors when I make an in-app purchase?

In the physical space... I've never once considered the payment processor Walgreens uses. Or McDonalds.

So I'm just wondering how this will affect consumers in the app space.

🤔

It impacts what data is stored about you and your transaction, by whom, and what they do with it.

 

[bookofxero]

What if those different payment processors offer the same security Apple Pay does, for example hiding your credit card information?

Great! How are you going to know that for any of the tons of potential processors operating in different jurisdictions, under different requirements, with no publicly available information, etc?

 

[JGIGS]

You can't have it both ways. You keep saying that all apps will likely stay on the iOS store and Apple's payment processor but then say "why should iOS be different from MacOS", make up your mind.

I don't understand what you mean? There is a mac app store that developers can distribute there apps through and or they can also distribute through other means?

This is what the EU is trying to instill for smart phones. The allowing of third party means on ios would give developers to have the same structure?

You think just because they offer a third party way of getting the app and doing in app payments they need to leave the app store? I've never said that. You assume they would do this and I would assume most wouldn't because of the reach the app store has and people not trusting 3rd party app stores and not wanting to lose customers like you. My assumption is they would just up charge on the apple app store to offset the apple commission. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

We are making different assumptions, but even if they all left the app store, as you say they will, that should be their choice it's their intellectual property.

 

[Ethosik]

Why would it be legislated into extinction? Alt stores and payments doesn't mean the app store goes away? Of course alt services would have to be less expensive then the app store or people would just continue in app/ app purchases in the Apple app store.

Because apps will leave the App Store requiring third party stores which breaks the walled garden environment.

 

[Macative]

As a consumer... what difference does it make if an app uses a different payment processor?

Will I have a choice between two or more payment processors when I make an in-app purchase?

In the physical space... I've never once considered the payment processor Walgreens uses. Or McDonalds.

So I'm just wondering how this will affect consumers in the app space.

🤔

It doesn't. Which boggles the mind as to why this is even a thing.

 

[BootsWalking]

Great! How are you going to know that for any of the tons of potential processors operating in different jurisdictions, under different requirements, with no publicly available information, etc?

By choosing a well-known single processor, like Google, Square, etc...

 

[Macative]

I don't understand what you mean? There is a mac app store that developers can distribute there apps through and or they can also distribute through other means?

This is what the EU is trying to instill for smart phones. The allowing of third party means on ios would give developers to have the same structure?

You think just because they offer a third party way of getting the app and doing in app payments they need to leave the app store? I've never said that. You assume they would do this and I would assume most wouldn't because of the reach the app store has and people not trusting 3rd party app stores and not wanting to lose customers like you. My assumption is they would just up charge on the apple app store to offset the apple commission. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

We are making different assumptions, but even if they all left the app store, as you say they will, that should be their choice it's their intellectual property.

The Mac App Store is a waste land. It was introduced long, long after the "alternate" (primary) method existed, and it has never gained traction. At all. It's a perfect example of what could happen to the iOS App Store, and that would be a terrible result for users.

 

[icanhazmac]

You think just because they offer a third party way of getting the app and doing in app payments they need to leave the app store?

No, I don't think they need to leave the Apple app store, I believe they will, see post #49.

You assume they would do this

Again, detailed my thoughts on why major devs will leave the app store in post #49.

I would assume most wouldn't because of the reach the app store has and people not trusting 3rd party app stores and not wanting to lose customers like you. My assumption is they would just up charge on the apple app store to offset the apple commission. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

How much of a savings to you believe a dev will realize if they leave the Apple App store and go it alone, 5%, 10%, 15%? Please note that the dev will need to host a web site capable of supporting login accounts for purchase/updates, market their own app, provide customer service and payment processing. Please be specific.

If devs are allowed to keep an app on the Apple App store and allowed to advertise the fact that consumers can purchase it as a substantial discount on the devs site then I have a problem with that as the dev is using Apple's App store as a "free" marketing tool to direct consumers elsewhere. This would be equivalent to having your product on the shelves of Best Buy but putting on the box "you can save 10% by buying this product on our web site".

I could care less about alt-stores / alt-payments if:

1) All apps must be available on the Apple App store and available from Apple's payment system in addition to any other store the dev wants but at either the same price or a reasonable premium, say 10%. No one will convince me that devs will not incur at least 20% cost for providing the same services that Apple gives them via the store. No listing an app for .99 on your indie site and $99 on the Apple store just to force traffic to your site.

 

[The_Gream]

Without knowing the %'s that McDonalds and other retailers pay per transaction I'm sure it's a lot less then what Apple charges which I think is around 30%?

Again not sure the exact % but a lot less. In theory developers could charge less and or be more profitable with a third party payment system.

Apple cares way more about the money grabbing aspects of their ecosystem then privacy. Trust me.

A payment processor (Visa, Mastercard, Discover etc) charge anywhere between 2-5+% plus flat per transaction fees.

Apple has never been a payment processor. They pay the 3% to the processor the other 12-27% is to cover the other things Apple does -

Like taxes, currency exchange, hosting and distribution of app. Developer tools and training. WWDC. And much much more.

I really wish people would pay attention and realized the difference between a payment processor and store front (which is what the App Store and Google Play are). Every business has a markup value on goods. Apple and Google decided not to do the standard behind the screens markup, but instead chose to do a flat % rate based on what the developer thought his app was worth. If the dev undercharges for his/her app, it is their own fault for not understanding finances.

 

[JGIGS]

How much of a savings to you believe a dev will realize if they leave the Apple App store and go it alone, 5%, 10%, 15%? Please note that the dev will need to host a web site capable of supporting login accounts for purchase/updates, market their own app, provide customer service and payment processing. Please be specific.

If devs are allowed to keep an app on the Apple App store and allowed to advertise the fact that consumers can purchase it as a substantial discount on the devs site then I have a problem with that as the dev is using Apple's App store as a "free" marketing tool to direct consumers elsewhere. This would be equivalent to having your product on the shelves of Best Buy but putting on the box "you can save 10% by buying this product on our web site".

I could care less about alt-stores / alt-payments under these circumstances:

1) All apps must be available on the Apple App store and available from Apple's payment system in addition to any other store the dev wants but at either the same price or a reasonable premium, say 10%. No one will convince me that devs will not incur at least 20% cost for providing the same services that Apple gives them via the store.

You're coming around but it's not about how much they save or make its about them being able to choose how they want to distribute there app. I don't feel like they have to be on the app store, I do think it's a bad business decision if they aren't, but if they don't want to just like the mac app store they shouldn't have to be in the ios app store.

The advertising your web or third party store within the ios app store does seem wrong again not a legal expert but I think that might be illegal?

Within the app itself at least for in app payments does seem fair though? But that is an interesting point to see how that works but if they just upcharge the commission and make the same margin there really wouldn't be a reason for the developer to re direct anyone but would be interesting to see how that would play out.

But anyway to me this is really just about developers having the choice of how to distribute what they created and eliminate monopolies.

 

[CoolSpot]

Its really weird to read all the comments of people who just feel for whatever reason that the law is optional when it comes to Apple.

The writing has been on the wall for a while and Apple will have to figure out how to navigate the new reality.

If your entire plan for making money is that you use your natural advantage as the creator of a phone hardware/software platform as leverage to force consumers to use your unrelated software/payment services, you will will not have a viable business model in the DMA-era EU, and will need to adapt.

The good news is that as a consumer, you will now have more choices available to you, regardless of which phone platform you choose, and you will still always have the option of sticking with the default Apple or Google services if you really don't want to venture outside of the services you have chosen.