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Epic COULD make an easy peasy store themselves for their games. However, apparently making an easy peasy store is hard. So, even in a situation where they have freedom to create their OWN store on ANY of the compatible hardware out there, they still wanted to piggyback on the store someone ELSE created rather than go the side load or create their own store way.

I am personally on Epic's side with regard to iOS, and not with regard to Android. Android gives you the ability to make your own store, so Epic should indeed stop complaining and get to work.

On iOS, there's nothing Epic can do.
 
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The difference is that Google Play Store is optional on Android devices.

You don't need a store to install an app, you can sideload it.

You don't have to use Google Play Store, you can just install a different store.

Huawei comes with HMS instead of GMS (Google Mobile Services), which doesn't use any of the Google techs. So, it's fair on Android, I would say.

If We can just install an app directly by sideloading and install a different store on iOS devices operated by Huawei or Amazon, this would be a non-issue for Apple too.
 
All of this 👆🏼 and then some. You hit the nail right on the head. Epic and Spotify (the two biggest whiners right now) seem to be forgetting the money they have made from being on the App Store. If a user had to navigate through the archaic system to get a subscription and not to mention the HELL you used to have to go through to unsubscribe, vendors did/still do make it extremely difficult. They would not have the revenue they did. I don’t think it’s the 30% but rather the ease there is in being able to unsubscribe from a subscription. Before the AppStore it was buried in some random help section on the vendors website. The BS Epic and Spotify would never fly with physical goods sold in a physical store. If a vendor told Target “you’re making a lot of money from my product, I want a cut of your profit of it” (essentially what Spotify and Epic are doing). Target would tell them to go pound sand and stop carrying the product and find a different vendor.

Yep, you got this right. As a consumer, I am furious when I have to call a number and spend 30 minutes to unsubscribe for something. Apple's ability to allow me to unsubscribe with a click - I'm FAR more likely to spend my $ on said product. I've tried cancelling some of my magazine subscriptions recently - several times the rep promises to stop the auto-renewal and ... I keep getting charged. This makes me so mad.

I have been part of a team that developed an App for iOS and ... they pointed out flaws in our code during the review process - made sure we conformed to security requirements. I was surprised - they even pointed out methods that we had in our code that didn't do anything (that we hadn't removed).

Yeah, I'll gladly give the App store my business as a consumer. Nothing is perfect. But I like what I see.
 
I think developers should only pay Google & Apple for services that require the latter's infrastructure (eg app hosting & delivery). Anything else that the apps do that don't use the host's infrastructure should NOT be part of the payment. IE Netflix should pay Apple & Google for hosting the Netflix app, but not for actual movie streaming costs. How we can separate that, I unfortunately don't know.

Also, I'd like to see an "App Mall" kind of service. Instead of just Apple's App Store, allow other companies have stores on iPads, perhaps give a "You're welcome to use this, but Apple assumes no responsibility for the quality of the apps) warning. Maybe give some leeway to pull other stores if the other stores are shown to sell malware.
 
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At least on Android, if a developer is unhappy they can distribute outside of the App Store ... Apple doesn’t believe in its own App Store enough to compete or trust its users enough to make a decision for themselves

Have you ever done IT for ... anything? I've done IT for teachers, medical staff (hospitals), and several businesses. No, you can't trust the users. If you do, you're just asking for problems.

What does this have to do with Apple not believing in its own app store? Apple's app store is why millions of people use Apple devices. The apps on that app store are usually known for being of a higher quality than other app stores.
 
I think developers should only pay Google & Apple for services that require the latter's infrastructure (eg app hosting & delivery). Anything else that the apps do that don't use the host's infrastructure should NOT be part of the payment. IE Netflix should pay Apple & Google for hosting the Netflix app, but not for actual movie streaming costs. How we can separate that, I unfortunately don't know.

There's an easier solution. The company responsible for distributing apps charges what they think is an appropriate price for their services, and apps can decide which vendor to use, or even elect to build their own solution. If there are multiple vendors distributing apps, competition should naturally push the price down to the cost of running the service.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Google has been lax about enforcing Play Store fees, and I'm not at all convinced this decision won't backfire. 30% is a lot when the Play Store is optional.

The App Store, of course, isn't optional, and that's a problem.
 
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I don’t see how this is so hard for people to wrap their head around. I can’t just walk into Walmart put an item I sell onto their shelf and demand it stay there for free. It’s the same with Google or Apple. I realize it’s hard for people to comprehend that virtual items are real or at least sold for real currency but that’s how it works
 
All of this 👆🏼 and then some. You hit the nail right on the head. Epic and Spotify (the two biggest whiners right now) seem to be forgetting the money they have made from being on the App Store. If a user had to navigate through the archaic system to get a subscription and not to mention the HELL you used to have to go through to unsubscribe, vendors did/still do make it extremely difficult. They would not have the revenue they did. I don’t think it’s the 30% but rather the ease there is in being able to unsubscribe from a subscription. Before the AppStore it was buried in some random help section on the vendors website. The BS Epic and Spotify would never fly with physical goods sold in a physical store. If a vendor told Target “you’re making a lot of money from my product, I want a cut of your profit of it” (essentially what Spotify and Epic are doing). Target would tell them to go pound sand and stop carrying the product and find a different vendor.

Do you think a company like Epic that has made billions doesn’t understand where they get their money from?

Some people here act like apple’s payment system is something new and revolutionary. Consumers have been buying things online for decades now. They’ve done just fine entering credit card info or paypal. There a lot of well established and reputable payment processing services available for use by online businesses.

Is apple’s system convenient for the user? Sure. Is it convenient enough to keep them using it if there are discounts in an alternative? Nope.
 
Great. Than allow alternate App Stores, and users can decide whether the 30% fee is justified. Maybe it is!

As a consumer, I see no reason to support Epic (or any other company for that matter) in having their own iOS App Store that is guided by their own rules and guidelines, because I do not think they will be to my benefit at all.

First off, it’s a blatant power grab, plain and simple. These companies aren’t going after what they view to be unfair or illegal App Store guidelines, nor are they doing this for the benefit of developers or consumers. They just want more power on mobile operating systems.

Second, there is no evidence that developers would pass on the savings on to consumers in the form of lower prices.

Lastly, as a consumer, I have every incentive to ensure the continued vitality and viability of the iOS App Store so that developers continue to release apps for it. I fail to see how it is considered a great user experience to have to visit multiple app stores just to get the apps I want, compared to being able to locate and download them all from one App Store, replete with the protection afforded by Apple (such as the ability to be able to view and manage all my subscriptions in one place).

My stance remains the same - one App Store for Apple.
 
Second, there is no evidence that developers would pass on the savings on to consumers in the form of lower prices.

This is exactly what I've been arguing about with these "fanboys" on multiple forums defending developers. They are standing up for developers about the 30% but I haven't once seen or heard a developer state that they would happily pass the savings onto the consumer if the 30% were lowered. In fact the ones that have managed to bypass the App Store and offer upgrades to their customers on their own website certainly didn't give the customer any special discount. I buy a great deal of apps so I know this to be true. The truth is some people just want to hate Apple for no good reason other than the fact the company is successful, and sadly success brings hatred and jealousy.
 
I think developers should only pay Google & Apple for services that require the latter's infrastructure (eg app hosting & delivery). Anything else that the apps do that don't use the host's infrastructure should NOT be part of the payment. IE Netflix should pay Apple & Google for hosting the Netflix app, but not for actual movie streaming costs. How we can separate that, I unfortunately don't know.

Also, I'd like to see an "App Mall" kind of service. Instead of just Apple's App Store, allow other companies have stores on iPads, perhaps give a "You're welcome to use this, but Apple assumes no responsibility for the quality of the apps) warning. Maybe give some leeway to pull other stores if the other stores are shown to sell malware.
As it is right now free apps are paying Apple nothing. Basically games are subsidizing Netflix, Spotify, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube etc.
 
Have you ever done IT for ... anything? I've done IT for teachers, medical staff (hospitals), and several businesses. No, you can't trust the users. If you do, you're just asking for problems.

What does this have to do with Apple not believing in its own app store? Apple's app store is why millions of people use Apple devices. The apps on that app store are usually known for being of a higher quality than other app stores.
The people who do not get it at all... They do not understand and never will. I work in I.T. as well (mostly end user support) and you cannot trust users AT ALL. Unless you have a forced automatic reboot policy in place users won’t even restart their machines to allow updates to install.
 
The difference is that Google Play Store is optional on Android devices.

You don't need a store to install an app, you can sideload it.

You don't have to use Google Play Store, you can just install a different store.

Huawei comes with HMS instead of GMS (Google Mobile Services), which doesn't use any of the Google techs. So, it's fair on Android, I would say.

If We can just install an app directly by sideloading and install a different store on iOS devices operated by Huawei or Amazon, this would be a non-issue for Apple too.

If you want the Huawei store then don't buy an iPhone???

The iPhone has never EVER advertised or even hinted at the possibility of having 3rd party stores, heck, they heavily promote the AppStore. If a completely clueless customer buys and iPhone expecting Google Play store then they're welcome to return their device. For many customers, the convenience and security of the single AppStore is a selling feature.

My only concern with the AppStore that I can definitely sympathize with developers is when Apple releases an Apple version of competing App that has access OS level features not available to regular developers. I don't think it happens as much anymore though but I can totally support that argument. Eg: if AirTags come out and have access to hardware features that Tile can't.

But for pretty much any other AppStore complaint, if you're not happy about the AppStore then just don't buy an iPhone! This is how consumers voice their opinion, with their wallet. Don't like it? Don't buy it!
 
I think developers should only pay Google & Apple for services that require the latter's infrastructure (eg app hosting & delivery). Anything else that the apps do that don't use the host's infrastructure should NOT be part of the payment. IE Netflix should pay Apple & Google for hosting the Netflix app, but not for actual movie streaming costs. How we can separate that, I unfortunately don't know.
Weird that you would defend Netflix when they are charging customers $12.99 to $15.99USD per month which is insanely high. You do realize that Netflix has no interest in passing the savings onto the consumer right? Because you can go straight to their website on any computer web browser and sign up for a service plan, so the 30% is not why consumers are being gouged by Netflix.
 
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It's interesting that Google can charge the 30% and the internet for the most part remains quiet, but tech sites, news and various other information sites make it to seem that Apple is the only bad guy here and is the only one charging 30%. SMH
Because Google's Android allows sideloading. And there are other stores beside Google Play store to get apps from.

There's HUGE difference between this and Apple's App Store 100% Monopolistic system. You can't get a single native app to run without Apple's App Store. You have various way to do that in Android. It all comes down to choice and freedom.
 
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Do you think a company like Epic that has made billions doesn’t understand where they get their money from?

Some people here act like apple’s payment system is something new and revolutionary. Consumers have been buying things online for decades now. They’ve done just fine entering credit card info or paypal. There a lot of well established and reputable payment processing services available for use by online businesses.

Is apple’s system convenient for the user? Sure. Is it convenient enough to keep them using it if there are discounts in an alternative? Nope.

I’m not saying they do not know where it is coming from, they do, they’re not stupid.

“Some people here act like apple’s payment system is something new and revolutionary.” Their concept is not but it is their implementation of it that is revolutionary. Apple made it dead simple in how to do this stuff from their AppStore from purchasing, renting, subscribing etc. They also made it really easy to unsubscribe. If there was a “killer app” in the AppStore model itself being able to hit a button to do that, the unsubscribe feature is it. And, you can do this from any device that you are signed into with your AppleID, and it’s baked into the OS. Subscription services like Spotify and Epic really hate this because almost all subscription models goal is to make it difficult as HELL to get out of it. The harder it is most people say screw it and stay subscribed.
 
Imagine the amount of hatred, disdain, and horrific things people would say on these forums if Microsoft required all purchases utilizing the Windows OS to give MS a 30% cut.

Please google retail cost splits
30% for Apple is NOT HIGH.

Most people have 0 (zero) idea of what makes up the final price of any good or service. And even if they "knew" they most likely would not care. If you want it cheaper, you can do the work of getting something direct if you wish. OR you could just not buy Apple products and avoid this whole thing.
 
100% this. I think of the few games I've done IAP with. I never would enter my credit card details to them individually. Ever. But knowing it's apple that is processing everything gives me confidence in the payment system.

It's either 70% of what they charge or 0% if the App Store didn't have IAP.
 
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As a consumer, I see no reason to support Epic (or any other company for that matter) in having their own iOS App Store that is guided by their own rules and guidelines, because I do not think they will be to my benefit at all.

First off, it’s a blatant power grab, plain and simple. These companies aren’t going after what they view to be unfair or illegal App Store guidelines, nor are they doing this for the benefit of developers or consumers. They just want more power on mobile operating systems.

Second, there is no evidence that developers would pass on the savings on to consumers in the form of lower prices.

Lastly, as a consumer, I have every incentive to ensure the continued vitality and viability of the iOS App Store so that developers continue to release apps for it. I fail to see how it is considered a great user experience to have to visit multiple app stores just to get the apps I want, compared to being able to locate and download them all from one App Store, replete with the protection afforded by Apple (such as the ability to be able to view and manage all my subscriptions in one place).

My stance remains the same - one App Store for Apple.
Well said
 
You want an ancient tech analog headphone jack? stay with the old model. I don't understand, everybody always "has to have the latest greatest" then they complain that it is not like the old one anymore.

Where do you come up with this crap? It's not money for free, do you have even the slightest clue what it costs to run that backend? servers, storage, electric for equipment and air conditioning. It's not tax, it's cost of running a business. I work in a professional video editing environment and our video servers and storage are "EOL'd" (end of life) every 5 ish years. Our measly 750TB of of high speed (10GB/s) on optical fiber costs $105k for 100TB and has to be kept at 68 degrees. Amazon has to have Exebytes of storage for all of the app store and infrastructure. That has to cost millions of dollars a year...then you have staff engineers to maintain and support it.

Everybody needs to stop with money for free crap.

The headphone jack wasn’t about technology, the port is ubiquitous and is still very much in use. It was always about accessories. I would bet the house that the AirPods were in the pipeline at that point, and it was more about incentivizing the purchase of those more than it was about “courage.”

But it is literally money for nothing. A lot of those in app purchases are on the developer side. The developers are needing to pay salaries, overhead, extra costs, server space, bandwidth, etc.

Is Apple hosting all of Spotify’s music too? How can Spotify compete when Apple can charge the same monthly price, but not have a 30% penalty for subscription costs? If you don’t see that as an anti-competitive, you need to put down the kool-aid.

There’s a reason Apple is growing their services decision. The margin is incredibly high, and you know Tim loves his margins. It’s why the MacBook doesn’t have a port that literally every other device on the market has.

Nobody is saying Apple and Google shouldn’t make a profit off of the App Store, but when you start taxing 30% of every transaction and subscription, it becomes an issue. Apple innovated that trend, Google is just now following along because... why wouldn’t you.
 
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Imagine the amount of hatred, disdain, and horrific things people would say on these forums if Microsoft required all purchases utilizing the Windows OS to give MS a 30% cut.

No, if MS did this, they’d just watch Windows decline in the consumer space even more. MS does, however, use a similar storefront policy on Xbox where their position is much stronger. Besides, hating on MS is as old as the hills, and while Windows is still huge, MS’s threat to computing is far more deminished that it was in the 90s. MS has even taken its main software cross-platform—and built a smartphone that runs on Android—because they know Windows is less popular in the consumer market now more than ever. Office365 subscriptions on someone’s iPad is still better than no Office365 subscription at all.

And while hating Apple is also as old as the hills, there is much concern being thrown at the empire they have created with iOS, largely with the same old Appstore purchase policy. Apple has always functioned as a small share of a larger market, but what burns people up is that Apple lands the customers that are willing to spend more money. Market data shows that iOS customers are far more likely to pay vs Android customers. iOS is where the money is, and the big developers know this and want more of it. No doubt, Apple’s policies need scrutiny and to be challenged, but that is true of all companies.

As long as you can sideload Android apps, this situation is entirely different from what's happening on iOS.

If Spotify doesn't want to give Google a cut, they can tell customers to download an apk directly from their website. Frankly, this whole thing could easily backfire on Google, because the more software that's distributed directly, the more users become used to sideloading, and the less reason developers have to use the Play Store to begin with.

I mean, at least the iOS App Store offers fairly substantial safety guarantees for users. If sideloading was possible on iOS—as it should be—I'd still download most software from the App Store, because I'd know those apps were safe. The Play Store has a lot more malware, and I don't see many reasons to use it.
I would challenge this sideloading with a simple question—how many people are actually willing to get and maintain their software in this way? Most people I know want simple, fast, and easy on their phones. If it isn’t that, they aren’t messing with it. It also opens the door to scams and malware. Want that hot app people are talking about? Well, if you fat-finger the URL, no doubt you’ll get redirected to a site that looks authentic, but is a malware app just seeking your personal data. There is no policing of this stuff, and it takes its toll on the less-savy users. Windows was once such a minefield, and it left most people intimidated. What Appstore and Play do is reduce the threats and eliminate the intimidation, which opens up more wallets.

And while I could maybe trust big companies with my payment data, I would not trust the little guys, so such an approach only exacerbates the plight of the little guy and gives more advantage to the dominant players. It’s no coincidence that these coalitions of anti-appstore companies are mega-corps. They can afford to invest in reaching their customers in other ways, and it only harms the competition if it diminishes people’s use of the Appstore. It makes it less of a free-market, because now some companies can play by different rules because they have more money. There can really not be a truly ”free market,” but what is being attempted is a level playing field that is now reaching a tipping point as we have companies making millions of dollars in these markets.

Don’t get me wrong, Apple has some policies that probably need to be changed, but unrestricted downloads would only harm the rest of the market, and likely many users. It’s that simplicity that made these systems rise to where they are—just like with game consoles.
 
Because Google's Android allows sideloading. And there are other stores beside Google Play store to get apps from.

There's HUGE difference between this and Apple's App Store 100% Monopolistic system. You can't get a single native app to run without Apple's App Store. You have various way to do that in Android. It all comes down to choice and freedom.
Walmart doesn’t allow sideloading merchandise into their store. They have a monopoly in their store. I should be allowed to sell merchandise on Walmart shelf!
 
I am personally on Epic's side with regard to iOS, and not with regard to Android. Android gives you the ability to make your own store, so Epic should indeed stop complaining and get to work.

On iOS, there's nothing Epic can do.
But, the fact that Epic HASN’T done it on Android is telling. To me, that would be the NUMBER ONE indicator of what they would do on the iPhone if given the opportunity.

However, they haven’t.
At least on Android, if a developer is unhappy they can distribute outside of the App Store ... Apple doesn’t believe in its own App Store enough to compete or trust its users enough to make a decision for themselves
Epic DID distribute outside of the Google Play store. And were still unhappy because customers LIKED using the store and wouldn’t go through hoops to install the app from outside the store. So, they went back to the Google Play Store, but eventually created their own store to distribute apps fro.... no, they didn’t. They told folks to install using the SAMSUNG store... why haven’t they created their own store? If that’s their goal, why don’t they put their money where their mouth is and DO it?

Because that’s NOT their goal. Their goal is to freeload on someone else’s store, taking zero effort on the difficult task of creating an easy peasy store, but reaping all the benefits. Until they create their own store on Android, it’s a non-discussion.
 
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Walmart doesn’t allow sideloading merchandise into their store. They have a monopoly in their store. I should be allowed to sell merchandise on Walmart shelf!
Apples and Oranges. And I do believe you can sell your products in Walmart. And I also believe Walmart customers have the choice to get their products from Walmart as well as various other merchants.
Try again.
 
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